71 réponses à ce sujet

[durasteel]

I can understand the appeal of the Refuse option for the ME3 ending--the appropriate thing to do with a great big poo is to flush it. Both Refuse and Synthesis leave the "Mass Effect universe" destroyed, with the diversity of species and cultures either wiped out or homogenized. Both are invalid as "canon" world states for future games, in my opinion.

Control and Destroy, however, leave the Mass Effect universe intact, and it would be simple to create a canon world state that "splits the difference" between the two.

Shepard is presumed dead, either way. The Reapers are gone--some say the fleets destroyed them all, other people say some of them mysteriously left and dissappeared into the void. It probably won't matter to the protagonist of ME4, but either way there could be Reaper survivors of the red space magic who are freed by the destruction of the Catalyst, just like there could be a fleet of Reapers controlled by Shepard out there in the vastness of space. If the story requires a Reaper at some point, it's not too hard to justify either way.

The Geth can survive red space magic because Legion had a soul. Seriously, it's space magic... how hard is hand-wave past that? Legion's upload of self brought the Geth to a state with which the Catalyst was not familiar. Presumably its most recent data was from before Shepard nuked the reaper code in the Geth matrix. Red space magic can deactivate any Geth who have not been Legionized, but those on or near Rannoch should be safe.

A similar hand-wave could spare EDI. Just as it is easy to imagine how some of the Reapers could survive the red space magic (mass effect corridors, slingshotting around an event horizon, etc.) it's not too difficult to imagine how Joker could have saved EDI. In fact, if they want EDI to exist in the future, they could just hint at a possible reason (or two) and leave it up to the player to speculate.

Any Reapers who survive Destroy would still be freed from the Catalyst, and therefore unlikely to try to resume their reaping schedule. Whether red or blue, surviving Reapers would probably lurk in deep space, waiting for the plot to call for a Voice Of God type encounter.

Tl;dr: Refuse and Green break the universe, but it isn't hard to come up with a "Purple" hybrid of Red and Blue that would preserve the elements of the Mass Effect franchise for ME4 and future media.

Modifié par durasteel, 06 décembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[AlanC9]

Or just handwave nothing and leave EDI and the geth dead.

[KaiserShep]

AlanC9 wrote...

Or just handwave nothing and leave EDI and the geth dead.

The heck you say.

[AlanC9]

Fluently.

[durasteel]

AlanC9 wrote...

Or just handwave nothing and leave EDI and the geth dead.

The Geth are iconic, it would be almost as dumb to eliminate them going forward as it would be to eliminate the krogan.

EDI is less important, but if there is an EDI shaped spot in the story moving forward, there is no reason to leave it empty. The ending created a situation where it is not any more ridiculous to have EDI spared by space magic than it is to have her killed by space magic.

[KaiserShep]

I wouldn't be surprised if the geth were used as an enemy type again if they return for another game. There's always going to be some type of synthetic enemies in the game to balance out the class sets and give tech-oriented abilities more reason to exist (AI hacking is here to stay, methinks).

Modifié par KaiserShep, 06 décembre 2013 - 09:16 .

[durasteel]

KaiserShep wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised if the geth were used as an enemy type again if they return for another game. There's always going to be some type of synthetic enemies in the game to balance out the class sets and give tech-oriented abilities more reason to exist (AI hacking is here to stay, methinks).

It would suprise me. I'm really expecting a new, never-before-seen enemy for ME4. I think the feel they'll be going for in ME4 is "old friends, new targets."

But I'm just guessing.

[Massa FX]

@ OP: I hope your information is incorrect. I hate the refuse path.

@ themikefest: Interesting except they won't be using Shepard in the next game. She'll either be dead or a NPC. I'm hoping for a NPC... but I'm not holding my breath for it.

note: i'm still an IT person. I'd be calling for Bioware to validate Shepard's actions in ME4, but I don't think they will. Shepard's been dropped like a hot steaming potato.

[Massa FX]

StreetMagic wrote...

The only time I've been to Canada is Vancouver. Funnily, I was about the same age as the kid in ME3. And I witnessed a murder. No B.S. Screwed me up for awhile.

I've been to both Vancouver and Montreal. Both are beautiful cities, although while in Montreal I noticed a lot of people smoked cig's.  bleh...

[The Twilight God]

rspanther wrote...

Bioware have always stated that they don't need to pick a canon ending for ME3, to make the next game. I'm not sure how they can do that, unless the next game is prequel or is taking place at the same time as Shepards story.

My opinion, which is worth exactly what you paid for it, is that destroy will be the canon ending.
With control and synthesis the reapers will still be around and their mandate will still be to preserve life. Which means they will be doing anything that will stop any large scale conflict from happening. Think of them as a galactic peace keeping force.

It would have to takes place so far into the future that nothing matters. So far into the future that everything is biotechnological regardless and the reapers are mythical beings that were either destroyed or left the galaxy a long long time ago. Remember that the old man at the very end negates your actions. It all comes down to his telling of an old story. Refuse is just a slap in the face to people who were extremely negative and vocal about the red, blue and green color options. I don't even acknowledge it as legitimate.

The only logical choice is canon Destroy and a Leviathan push for dominance. Synthesis and Control already muddled up the lore. To continue with that screw up... I know Hudson and Mac aren't the brightest lights in terms of plot resolution or the best lore masters, but there has to be a limit to their reckless storytelling.

[The Twilight God]

The Geth can survive red space magic because Legion had a soul. Seriously, it's space magic... how hard is hand-wave past that? Legion's upload of self brought the Geth to a state with which the Catalyst was not familiar. Presumably its most recent data was from before Shepard nuked the reaper code in the Geth matrix. Red space magic can deactivate any Geth who have not been Legionized, but those on or near Rannoch should be safe.

A similar hand-wave could spare EDI. Just as it is easy to imagine how some of the Reapers could survive the red space magic (mass effect corridors, slingshotting around an event horizon, etc.) it's not too difficult to imagine how Joker could have saved EDI. In fact, if they want EDI to exist in the future, they could just hint at a possible reason (or two) and leave it up to the player to speculate.

There is no concrete evidence that the Geth were destroyed. It doesn't really have to be explained. Honestly, they could have saved EDI if they wanted as they could have just said her blue box was not synthesized material, but just conventional polymers of Reaper manufacture. Oh well. EDI was built with physical Reaper parts, presumably synthesized human reaper parts. The Geth were not. If the Geth were destroyed then ALL technology must go with them. Everything. Every ship should have disintegrated like the husks. But that didn't happen. The Reaper dreadnaughts didn't disintegrate (I presume the synthesized terminators inside did), the alliance ships didn't disintegrate, Kasumi's greybox didn't go bye-bye, Tali's suit/implants didn't explode, etc. Seems that only synthesized material was targeted. In the EC Bioware specifically took out the dialog stating all AI's would be destroyed. There is currently nothing at all stating the Geth perished. Nada. zilch, zip, zippo, zero. It's just an assumption I believe they want players to make because even they knew synthesis or control would never be picked without seemingly tainting Destroy.

[AlanC9]

The question isn't whether they could handwave stuff, the question is whether they should.

[Guanxii]

Had the idea awhile ago. If refuse was cannon the next game would be about the next civilization finding Liara's beacon early in the next cycle and winning the war on their own terms by building upon/learning from our actions and mistakes in this cycle. Early discovery of the beacon would lead to massive technological advancement and centuries of preparation for the arrival of the reapers. Shepard died to give them that chance.

The liara VI details the exploits of Shepard from their discovery of the origin and motivation of the Reaper's and the catalyst to what the crucible actually does. The pitfalls of adapting technology from the citadel and mass relays (paths we desire - trap),  It  could explain the reaper conversion process, reaper indoctrination and how Cerberus attempted to control it. It could explain the history of the protheans and their mistakes in their war against the reapers and their views on synthetics, etc.

Humans, turians, asari, etc. would be the reapers' modified/elite troops (collector's) in the next cycle. Imagine humans with bug eyes, etc.

The next civilization would be more evolved/technologically advanced than the current races. The 'human'-like faction would be like the ancient humans/Forerunners in halo. The raloi would be highly evolved versions of turians, etc.

Modifié par Guanxii, 07 décembre 2013 - 11:32 .

[KaiserShep]

AlanC9 wrote...

The question isn't whether they could handwave stuff, the question is whether they should.

I wonder if I'm the only one that read this in Jeff Goldblum's voice.

[KaiserShep]

durasteel wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised if the geth were used as an enemy type again if they return for another game. There's always going to be some type of synthetic enemies in the game to balance out the class sets and give tech-oriented abilities more reason to exist (AI hacking is here to stay, methinks).

It would suprise me. I'm really expecting a new, never-before-seen enemy for ME4. I think the feel they'll be going for in ME4 is "old friends, new targets."

But I'm just guessing.

The general pattern I've seen is that the big bad is typically the minority player when it comes to the bulk of the combat in the games. With ME1, we're basically just fighting the geth, mercs, random husks and eventually Cerberus most of the time. Saren himself may be fought once or twice, and then the Saren/Sovyhopper combo. With ME2, the Collectors are only 3 missions, while the rest of the time it's mercs and more geth. Whatever this new big bad may be, I'm willing to bet that it too will not be the thing we encounter that often in the game, so there's going to be a few generic enemy types in between. I really don't want the geth to be an enemy again, because that should be done with, but I wouldn't be surprised if something very similar to them take their place. I think there's always going to be synthetic types to fight in these games. Mass Effect just doesn't feel right without robots to kill.

If by "old friends" you mean the species we're familiar with, then I'd say that this is a given, but if Shepard's story truly is over, I really hope we don't get any familar faces or names beyond historical data.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 décembre 2013 - 12:42 .

[The Twilight God]

KaiserShep wrote...

durasteel wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised if the geth were used as an enemy type again if they return for another game. There's always going to be some type of synthetic enemies in the game to balance out the class sets and give tech-oriented abilities more reason to exist (AI hacking is here to stay, methinks).

It would suprise me. I'm really expecting a new, never-before-seen enemy for ME4. I think the feel they'll be going for in ME4 is "old friends, new targets."

But I'm just guessing.

The general pattern I've seen is that the big bad is typically the minority player when it comes to the bulk of the combat in the games. With ME1, we're basically just fighting the geth, mercs, random husks and eventually Cerberus most of the time. Saren himself may be fought once or twice, and then the Saren/Sovyhopper combo. With ME2, the Collectors are only 3 missions, while the rest of the time it's mercs and more geth. Whatever this new big bad may be, I'm willing to bet that it too will not be the thing we encounter that often in the game, so there's going to be a few generic enemy types in between. I really don't want the geth to be an enemy again, because that should be done with, but I wouldn't be surprised if something very similar to them take their place. I think there's always going to be synthetic types to fight in these games. Mass Effect just doesn't feel right without robots to kill.

If by "old friends" you mean the species we're familiar with, then I'd say that this is a given, but if Shepard's story truly is over, I really hope we don't get any familar faces or names beyond historical data.

There could be geth members in the merc factions fighting right along side the asari. salarian, human etc. baddies. Having them integrated into society seems reasonable. In ME2 and 3 tech skills were useful against more than just Geth. Mechs fill the AI hack niche.

I don't think there has to be a special enemy type. If it's Leviathans it may be part civil war/shadow war, part overwhelming force. Probably have Yahg as the new heavy enemy type. Probably some new races fro other corners. The rachni could also become new foes as they are already predisposed to mind control. I think Leviathan trumps Queen. Not to mention previously unseen species from previously inaccessible parts of the cosmos.

Giant Citadel... filled with water... flown by Leviathans... with big death star main gun.

[KaiserShep]

I really hope that the Leviathan just linger in their abyss forever, because indoctrination lite is part of the package deal with those things. In any case, I would prefer the enemy to be less gargantuan in scale. I want it to be something I can kill with a shotgun.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 décembre 2013 - 05:21 .

[The Twilight God]

KaiserShep wrote...

I really hope that the Leviathan just linger in their abyss forever, because indoctrination lite is part of the package deal with those things. In any case, I would prefer the enemy to be less gargantuan in scale. I want it to be something I can kill with a shotgun.

That requires a really good villain. The plot needs to be sophisticated and coherent too, but the villain needs to be really good because his or her threat won't be on Reaper/Leviathan scale. To go from a massive enemy to "just another humanoid guy" requires good story writing. They have great character writers, but story and plot? I don't know if they could pull it off.

Mass Effect 2 was basically just short stories. Mass Effect 3 was mostly short stories too. Neither had a strong plot in regards to the overarching story. It's been about the characters and their "short stories" since the original leader writer left. Can that kind of writing work outside the shadow of a galactic size threat?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 14 décembre 2013 - 06:50 .

[KaiserShep]

This is true, but still, I would much prefer we don't get an enemy that is as obscenely overpowered as the reapers. A galaxy-threatening nemesis is fine, so long as it's not something that's just so overwhelming that it requires a solution akin to the Crucible to be defeated.

[The Twilight God]

KaiserShep wrote...

This is true, but still, I would much prefer we don't get an enemy that is as obscenely overpowered as the reapers. A galaxy-threatening nemesis is fine, so long as it's not something that's just so overwhelming that it requires a solution akin to the Crucible to be defeated.

Mass Effect 2, as much as I enjoyed it, was a bust. It did not forward the plot in any important way. The reapers never needed the Crucible to be defeated. That's just lazy, unimaginative writing. It never had to be a trilogy and given the heads up the races should have simply been ready for the reapers by the time they actually arrived. No magic super weapon conveniently landing in your lap out of the blue right when the Reapers reach earth. What was the point of forewarning and stopping them in ME1 if when they do arrive we're practically no better off than if Sovereign won. Like I say, Bioware has nice character writers, but I doubt they can write a their way out of a wet paper bag when it comes to a coherent plot. They need some new blood.