677 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

Perhaps someone in the Dragon Age or Mass Effect universes has actually been transgendered, and we simply didn't know about it. Them's some speculations for you.

[MrMrPendragon]

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

Or better yet, you do the romance (assuming she can be romanced), pick all the correct dialogue, ALL the work.

Then it's time for the romance scene, and the after-dialogue and there goes the transgender reveal

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:43 .

[Steelcan]

dreamgazer wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

Perhaps someone in the Dragon Age or Mass Effect universes has actually been transgendered, and we simply didn't know about it. Them's some speculations for you.

*obligatory Ashley from ME3 pic*

[Br3admax]

jillabender wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Okay, again, no one is dog piling anyone for wanting a certain character. All characters should have a reason to be there. We've been saying this for a very long time now. That is what we mean. If you didn't get that, now you do. We meant that. We do not hate minorities, a lot of us are minorities. We do in fact get it. We do not hate ourselves or others. Did I cover it all, or did I leave something out?

You've stated that you don't have a problem with BioWare including fleshed-out and multi-dimensional characters who happen to be non-white or LGBT, and I believe you.

I don't disagree that it is possible to create a minority character who feels like a public service announcement, and I agree that is definitely something to be avoided.

I think this issue can be a minefield partly because, in trying to convey the above, it can be easy to come across as implying that in your eyes, minority characters need to be even more interesting and better-written than straight white characters in order to prove that they're not simply token.

More generally, I think it's easy for comments like "I only want characters who belong to 'x' group to be included if they fit into the story and meet my standards of good writing" to come across as "I only want to see people like you included on my terms" – even when it's not intended that way.

Yes, but I just feel that way about everything. I'm only going to comment on the topic at hand however. If Duke Nukem suddenly appeared in Thedas, I would be just as annoyed, however, no one has made a thread on that yet, so I'm not going to comment on it. I don't interpret posts that ask for such characters as wanting straight ones to be less important, so others should do me the same kindness in reverse. 

[hoorayforicecream]

dreamgazer wrote...

Strongly disagree with the bolded, and I feel it absolutely would need to be addressed in the narrative if it's to matter. That's the purpose behind this, yes?  Else, what's the point? 

The point is generalized acceptance and acknowledgement that they exist, and that it isn't (nor should it be) a big deal. That's actually the thing I want to see most in these sorts of representations - that such people do not only exist, but that they're perfectly normal and acceptable people.

My favorite depiction of a lesbian character on TV to date is FBI Agent Diana Barrigan from White Collar. Why? Because her sexual identity isn't the focus of a Very Special Episode, it isn't something she has to explicitly mention and make a big deal of, and it isn't something used to titillate the audience. It's just a part of who she is and it's treated by the other characters on the show as if it's entirely ordinary. This generalized acceptance and normality is something hugely lacking in underrepresented minorities, and it's something I would love to see more of in general.

Wade and Herren make an excellent example of this in the Dragon Age world. Why not extend that same treatment to a trans character as well?

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:45 .

[sandalisthemaker]

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

DO IT DO IT

[ParkBom]

dreamgazer wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

Perhaps someone in the Dragon Age or Mass Effect universes has actually been transgendered, and we simply didn't know about it. Them's some speculations for you.

I doubt it would be any of the main characters but if it was, it would be great, haha. But yeah, if Bioware wants to tastefully include a transgender character and make it canon, so there's no need for speculation, I'd suggest this.

[MrMrPendragon]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

Or better yet, you do the romance (assuming she can be romanced), pick all the correct dialogue, ALL the work.

Then it's time for the romance scene, and be like "Wow she's really flat chested".
Then bam!
Transgender.

Do you wish to continue?

Yes.
No.
Giggity.

Hardcore roleplaying!

It would easily be one of the top 5 moments of the game.

[Ianamus]

 

dreamgazer wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

What orientation? The orientation of the transgender character? 

I don't really think it would be relevant to their gender identity. 

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you want to have a transgender NPC, you do what they did with Serendipity - you have someone who is biologically X with a gender expression Y.

You don't need to make an issue out of it. You just need to do more than 'this person is a joke' and 'this person is a prostitute.' 

There is no need to address anything in the narrative. Heck, it's actually easier than having a queer character.

Strongly disagree with the bolded, and I feel it absolutely would need to be addressed in the narrative if it's to matter. That's the purpose behind this, yes?  Else, what's the point? 

I think the point is just to make interesting characters. 

Merrill wasn't made forgetful, awkward and airheaded so as to represent awkward forgetful people, or as fanservice to those people. She was given those traits to make her an interesting charcter. 

Maevaris Tilani is a magister in Tevinter, where power and rating is everything, and identifies as the opposite sex in that incredibly harsh environment. That makes for a very interesting charcter, regardless of whether it relevant to the plot.  

And it depends on the definition of 'fanservice'. Fanservice in a sexual way? Not for the vast majority of people. We had transgendered charcters in the previous games and that was more fan-disservice than anything. If the definition of fanservice is "in the because it will make some people happy but isn't really needed" then just add it to the bucketloads of other similar stuff in the games that already do that. 

And it would be incredibly easy to make at least vaguely relevant. Say the Inquisitor helping Maevaris against a rival magister and they make some kind of hurtful comment during the fight. Maevaris is angered and upset by that and loses her cool. Afterwards you speak to her and she talks about how it can be difficult to take and keep positions of power when you are different. A Dwarf or, particuarly, Elf or Qunari inquisitor might relate to this. Or a companion. There you have charcter development for Maevaris, who the player is getting to know and potentially for the player character and some companions as well.

I don't know if that still falls under your label on "fanservice" but if the label is that generalised then I do have to ask: "What does it matter if it is?"

Modifié par EJ107, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:52 .

[Ferretinabun]

Oh BSN, how I love you.

[Ninja Stan]

Let's please keep this discussion on topic and civil. Thank you.

[Br3admax]

Lebdood wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Yes it does. This is a video game, literally everything needs a reason to exist. Straight character and transexual character alike.

Really? Why does Carver have no beard? Reasons. Same thing applies to sexual orientation.

You are missing the point. Carver doesn't have facial hair because he doesn't want to. I hope that you aren't implying that sexual orientation is similar to this.

 

Wow, can't tell if joking or not. Seriously. Wow. 

This is not the proper place to discuss this, but no I'm not joking. There used to be a test that probed suspected "homos" from behind to see if they were gay. It's illegal to be gay in many countries around the world. Must I elaborate?
Oh. I'm also speaking about the year 2013. Yes this still exists.

Read what you said again. 99.9% of people don't want to lynch black people. Where did this statistic come from?

And you guess my sexual orientation too. Genius. Sure, I'm straight. But you didn't know that. You profiled anyone who disagreed as straight. Guess what, some of the people disagreeing with you aren't. Guess which ones.

You made it quite clear in your previous posts. You are not new to me on this forum. 

I actually don't speak on my sexual orientation, so you definitely made an assumptions. Also know that the LIs that I speak of in no way reflect my own sexual orientation. I RP as a character, they are not me in turn. 

What does that have to do with this discussion? Or am I too priveleged to understand? 

It was relevant but probably an unnecessary addition. I do not think you are too privileged to understand so please don't put words in my mouth. I believe you do not have all your facts straight and I'm giving you my piece now.

These aren't facts. And you actually went on to say that I'm not comparable becasue I don't understand what it's like to be gay, completely ignoring my own personal experiences or of those who are around me. You then went on to describe how it's harder to be one group, when really we should just accept that a vast majority of people have it rough, not me really but those in my family including homosexual people who I love dearly, so we shouldn't talk about who has it worse. We all have it bad. 

[MrMrPendragon]

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

Perhaps someone in the Dragon Age or Mass Effect universes has actually been transgendered, and we simply didn't know about it. Them's some speculations for you.

*obligatory Ashley from ME3 pic*

Wait really?
Oh God NOOOOOO

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:50 .

[Mr.House]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Relevant.

PLEASE EXPLAIN FOR THOSE NOT SO WELL VERSED IN ANIME PLEASE. THANKS.

One of them is a woman who dresses and acts like a guy because of society, it's tied to her arc, character and part of the society theme that is key to some of the other characters(including the other character in that gif).

Modifié par Mr.House, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:50 .

[CynicalShep]

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

Perhaps someone in the Dragon Age or Mass Effect universes has actually been transgendered, and we simply didn't know about it. Them's some speculations for you.

*obligatory Ashley from ME3 pic*

God, please let this not be true.

[sandalisthemaker]

Mr.House wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...


PLEASE EXPLAIN FOR THOSE NOT SO WELL VERSED IN ANIME PLEASE. THANKS.

One of them is a woman who dresses and acts like a guy because of society, it's tied to her arc, character and part of the society theme that is key to some of the other characters(including othe other one in that gif).

Which one?
I'M GUESSING ITS THE TALL BLONDE.

[MrMrPendragon]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Imagine if Vivienne was a transgender but you didn't find out unless you read a codex entry or something? I would love that.

Perhaps someone in the Dragon Age or Mass Effect universes has actually been transgendered, and we simply didn't know about it. Them's some speculations for you.

*obligatory Ashley from ME3 pic*

Oh God NOOOOOO

Why all the hate?
*TWERKS*

I'm not hating on the transgender.

I meant "Oh God NOOOO" as a joke, because I romanced Ashley on one of my playthroughs.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

that was relevant because transgender is the pyro

[Mr.House]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...


PLEASE EXPLAIN FOR THOSE NOT SO WELL VERSED IN ANIME PLEASE. THANKS.

One of them is a woman who dresses and acts like a guy because of society, it's tied to her arc, character and part of the society theme that is key to some of the other characters(including othe other one in that gif).

Which one?
I'M GUESSING ITS THE TALL BLONDE.

Nope.  It's intresting though you would think it's Kanji(the big blond guy as you called him)

Modifié par Mr.House, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:54 .

[Karach_Blade]

As a gay FTM, I was beyond happy to see a character like Mae in the Dragon Age comics. I loved that Varric doesn't even blink: She's family and she's loved. As someone who has experienced a lot of hostility for being transgender, I was glad to see David Gaider's post.

[sandalisthemaker]

Mr.House wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...


PLEASE EXPLAIN FOR THOSE NOT SO WELL VERSED IN ANIME PLEASE. THANKS.

One of them is a woman who dresses and acts like a guy because of society, it's tied to her arc, character and part of the society theme that is key to some of the other characters(including othe other one in that gif).

Which one?
I'M GUESSING ITS THE TALL BLONDE.

Nope.  It's intresting though you would think it's Kanji(the big blond guy as you called him)

Nah. I was just joking.
I figured it was the shorter one.
But anime is tricky simply because everyone has the same face anyway.
So.

[jillabender]

Br3ad wrote...

jillabender wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Okay, again, no one is dog piling anyone for wanting a certain character. All characters should have a reason to be there. We've been saying this for a very long time now. That is what we mean. If you didn't get that, now you do. We meant that. We do not hate minorities, a lot of us are minorities. We do in fact get it. We do not hate ourselves or others. Did I cover it all, or did I leave something out?

You've stated that you don't have a problem with BioWare including fleshed-out and multi-dimensional characters who happen to be non-white or LGBT, and I believe you.

I don't disagree that it is possible to create a minority character who feels like a public service announcement, and I agree that is definitely something to be avoided.

I think this issue can be a minefield partly because, in trying to convey the above, it can be easy to come across as implying that in your eyes, minority characters need to be even more interesting and better-written than straight white characters in order to prove that they're not simply token.

More generally, I think it's easy for comments like "I only want characters who belong to 'x' group to be included if they fit into the story and meet my standards of good writing" to come across as "I only want to see people like you included on my terms" – even though it may not have been intended that way.

Yes, but I just feel that way about everything. I'm only going to comment on the topic at hand however. If Duke Nukem suddenly appeared in Thedas, I would be just as annoyed, however, no one has made a thread on that yet, so I'm not going to comment on it. I don't interpret posts that ask for such characters as wanting straight ones to be less important, so others should do me the same kindness in reverse.

I can appreciate that you have strong ideas about what fits with the story and makes for good writing, and I don't think your intention was to hold minority characters to a double standard.

My perspective is that when people ask things like "why would someone ask for more minority characters to be included when the quality of the writing is so obviously more important?" it puts people on the defensive. People find it understandably frustrating when they're asked to justify why they want characters like themselves to identify with in games, while other people can take that for granted.

Modifié par jillabender, 06 décembre 2013 - 02:28 .

[Br3admax]

jillabender wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

jillabender wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Okay, again, no one is dog piling anyone for wanting a certain character. All characters should have a reason to be there. We've been saying this for a very long time now. That is what we mean. If you didn't get that, now you do. We meant that. We do not hate minorities, a lot of us are minorities. We do in fact get it. We do not hate ourselves or others. Did I cover it all, or did I leave something out?

You've stated that you don't have a problem with BioWare including fleshed-out and multi-dimensional characters who happen to be non-white or LGBT, and I believe you.

I don't disagree that it is possible to create a minority character who feels like a public service announcement, and I agree that is definitely something to be avoided.

I think this issue can be a minefield partly because, in trying to convey the above, it can be easy to come across as implying that in your eyes, minority characters need to be even more interesting and better-written than straight white characters in order to prove that they're not simply token.

More generally, I think it's easy for comments like "I only want characters who belong to 'x' group to be included if they fit into the story and meet my standards of good writing" to come across as "I only want to see people like you included on my terms" – even though it may not have been intended that way.

Yes, but I just feel that way about everything. I'm only going to comment on the topic at hand however. If Duke Nukem suddenly appeared in Thedas, I would be just as annoyed, however, no one has made a thread on that yet, so I'm not going to comment on it. I don't interpret posts that ask for such characters as wanting straight ones to be less important, so others should do me the same kindness in reverse.

I can appreciate that you have strong ideas about what fits with the story and makes for good writing, and I don't think your intention was to hold minority characters to a double standard.

My perspective is that when people ask things like "why would someone ask for more minority characters to be included when the quality of the writing is so obviously more important?" it puts people on the defensive. People find it understandably frustrating when they're asked to justify why they want characters like themselves to identify with in games, while other people can take that representation for granted.

That's just the thing though, I want a justification for every character, not just minority ones. Why should Joe Everyman be in my party, that should be important. I've said the same thing in the "I want a party of Mages" thread, and I love mages. Make a topic on it, and I would discuss it. Others may not get that, but I and others have tried very hard to make this clear. The problem here is that people assume that sense we disagree, we must be the outside group, which isn't fair either.