677 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@jillabender: I support this, but I also think all minorities should be reasonable too.

If I have ten people in a room that like football and one that likes science programs. Chances are - we won't be watching the science program.

That is NOT bigotry or anti-science sentimentality.

[Mr.House]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@jillabender: I support this, but I also think all minorities should be reasonable too.

If I have ten people in a room that like football and one that likes science programs. Chances are - we won't be watching the science program.

That is NOT bigotry or anti-science sentimentality.

What if 9 of those people also like science?

[Jorji Costava]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@jillabender: I support this, but I also think all minorities should be reasonable too.

If I have ten people in a room that like football and one that likes science programs. Chances are - we won't be watching the science program.

That is NOT bigotry or anti-science sentimentality.

Where I would disagree with this analogy is that while you can't watch both the science program and the football game at the same time, you can have both transgendered and cisgendered characters in the same game. One doesn't preclude the other.

[Ninja Stan]

Some off-topic images and off-topic posts removed. Bans have been handed out.

[Medhia Nox]

@Mr. House: That's not really very important to the point I was trying to make.

I didn't get upset when I couldn't have a romance in ME1 or 2. I "did" want a "Loner" story arc in place of a romance - but I always want that because I usually hate the romancable S/S males.

This is a business. If Bioware has a compelling story to tell with gay, transgender, straight, black, humanzees... I'm all for it. It has to make business sense - and if it does, then good for them.

If they don't - they don't. If it doesn't - it doesn't.

@osbornep:  I'm not suggesting exclusivity - I'm simply stating that it isn't always wrong to exclude something.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 06 décembre 2013 - 02:32 .

[Mr.House]

Oh god the royal baby thing. Please anything but that.

[CynicalShep]

Mr.House wrote...

Oh god the royal baby thing. Please anything but that.

Aaaand gone. Worth mentioning, though, since a good chunk of this thread was people arguing about what gender means.

[Liyros]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...
because you are asking for understanding and respect from me while not offering me any.

Preach it brother.

What's even funnier is the other poster is too afraid to even reply to cynical. And if that's the case, I think cynical just nailed them 100% with that one.

Well CynicalShep didn't really lie. Respect is a two-way street.

The problem is, most people on his side don't bother. 

True, but we can at least all agree, there are people on both our sides who don't see eye to eye.

You guys have plantiff, we have kommander. And trust me, neither are good alternatives.

Right, I had a job interview..thus the lack of a reply.  It was no act of cowardice on my part.

That Cynical fellow made some assumptions of me, so there's that.  Such as me deriving pleasure from educating you?  Umm, no, I'm not into that.  It's not my responsibility to educate you, leading to my suggestion to seek out more information on your own from more learned individuals than me.  I have some bookmarks if you're interested.

I will apologize for being snippy.  That was uncalled for and I let the repetition of thoughts expressed on this thread get to me.  Saying you don't deserve to be judged is a bit much however.  No one is free from that.

Beyond that..hmm.  I will say I didn't choose be a multi-racial woman that is frequently fetished by men and women alike, knowing I will get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar, being pressured to learned the language of the people that commited genocide against natives of Puerto Rico, only has my european heritage acknowledge to prove how I don't belong in a group, and dlasffkl;dsa the list really goes on and on.  

This post is simply to prove a point.  I know the thread has moved on and mostly did this due to Darth Brotarian calling me out.

[addiction21]

Br3ad wrote...

That's just the thing though, I want a justification for every character, not just minority ones. Why should Joe Everyman be in my party, that should be important. I've said the same thing in the "I want a party of Mages" thread, and I love mages. Make a topic on it, and I would discuss it. Others may not get that, but I and others have tried very hard to make this clear. The problem here is that people assume that sense we disagree, we must be the outside group, which isn't fair either. 

Given sexual orientation is not skin deep and for it to be known it would need to be mentioned. You continue to make it seem as they need more justification to be around.

Joe Everyman being in your party and wanting to know why is not the same as Joe Everyman being in your party, wanting to know why, and needing more to explain why Joe turns out to really be Josephine, why that is , how that happened, why it matters more beyond old Joe Everyman.

Instead of being in such a rush to talk, maybe you should actually listen to what others have repeated, why they continue to misinterpret you and that possibly the fault lies somewhere else then where you believe it does.

[Plaintiff]

Characters need justification for being in the story. They do not need justification for being LGBT, or black or female.

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

If we gender-swapped the entire party of DA2, the story wouldn't have been much different at all. Same goes for basically all of the Mass Effect games.

In DA:O, the only character whose biological sex has any importance is Morrigan, because a fairly significant plot point hinges on her ability to become pregnant.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 décembre 2013 - 03:06 .

[CynicalShep]

Saslic wrote...

Right, I had a job interview..thus the lack of a reply.  It was no act of cowardice on my part.

That Cynical fellow made some assumptions of me, so there's that.  Such as me deriving pleasure from educating you?  Umm, no, I'm not into that.  It's not my responsibility to educate you, leading to my suggestion to seek out more information on your own from more learned individuals than me.  I have some bookmarks if you're interested.

I will apologize for being snippy.  That was uncalled for and I let the repetition of thoughts expressed on this thread get to me.  Saying you don't deserve to be judged is a bit much however.  No one is free from that.

Beyond that..hmm.  I will say I didn't choose be a multi-racial woman that is frequently fetished by men and women alike, knowing I will get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar, being pressured to learned the language of the people that commited genocide against natives of Puerto Rico, only has my european heritage acknowledge to prove how I don't belong in a group, and dlasffkl;dsa the list really goes on and on.  

This post is simply to prove a point.  I know the thread has moved on and mostly did this due to Darth Brotarian calling me out.

So you do not derive any pleasure from telling me what a terrible person I am? My bad, I misspoke. It just really looked like you did. Might have been the tone of it, maybe?
I have friends who are racial or sexual minorities (some are both), and some of these people I am really close to. I have seen and dealt with the effects of prejudice against them and without going into details - helped some of them deal with it. 
The whole 77 cent to a man's dollar thing is another heated argument waiting to happen so I'll just politely refuse to comment on it. Learning the language of the ones who commited genocide against my people is something that we incidentally have in common, except we come from different countries and I learned that on my own volition (though it's strongly "encouraged"). A language is just a bunch of words. It doesn't shoot guns or drop bombs.
Otherwise, my respect comment still stands. Treat me with respect and I will gladly reciprocate, do otherwise and expect the same in return.

[CynicalShep]

Plaintiff wrote...

Characters need justification for being in the story. They do not need justification for being LGBT, or black or female.

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

What if it's the villain? The villain absolutely has to be a straight white male.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Plaintiff wrote...

Characters need justification for being in the story. They do not need justification for being LGBT, or black or female.

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

Nobody has been arguing about that this whole time, seems only one side is brigning that up, and that's the side claiming others are doing it.

I think it's people asking for there to be a higher standard to these characters then previously seen, and others interpreting it as them being against any and all inclusions of them, because reasons that escape my mind.

[daveliam]

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Characters need justification for being in the story. They do not need justification for being LGBT, or black or female.

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

What if it's the villain? The villain absolutely has to be a straight white male.

Just like Meredith........?

[Maria Caliban]

dreamgazer wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you want to have a transgender NPC, you do what they did with Serendipity - you have someone who is biologically X with a gender expression Y.

You don't need to make an issue out of it. You just need to do more than 'this person is a joke' and 'this person is a prostitute.'

There is no need to address anything in the narrative. Heck, it's actually easier than having a queer character.

Strongly disagree with the bolded, and I feel it absolutely would need to be addressed in the narrative if it's to matter. That's the purpose behind this, yes?  Else, what's the point? 

Do you have the same criteria for cisgendered characters?

Because I don't recall you having ever asked what purpose there was in Ser Thrask being male, or Jethann being an elf, or Bethany having brown hair.

Why, of all the various attributes a person can have, does this specific one need to be addressed in the narrative?

[Plaintiff]

Hey, I am perfectly capable of respecting people who deserve it.

[CynicalShep]

daveliam wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Characters need justification for being in the story. They do not need justification for being LGBT, or black or female.

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

What if it's the villain? The villain absolutely has to be a straight white male.

Just like Meredith........?

Dammit

[Thandal N'Lyman]

People.  It's all about people.  People are people, and it takes all kinds in this (or any) funny ol' world.

As Mr. Gaider has (fairly) eloquently expressed it, having people (characters) "explain" their sexual (or any other) orientation would seem... awkward.  Certainly not natural, much less artistic.  So why not let the writers do their thing, the players do theirs, and let's just see how satisfying it can be?

[Fanboi disclaimer:  I have every confidence in Mr. Gaider, Ms. Chee, Mr. Kristjanson, Ms. Kirby, et al, to produce great characters and phenomenal Party Banter.]

"Seredipity as a Companion!" 

Modifié par Thandal NLyman, 06 décembre 2013 - 03:13 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Plaintiff wrote...

Characters need justification for being in the story. They do not need justification for being LGBT, or black or female.

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

Re: the second part, who said it had to be (and how is race at all relevant in this discussion)?

I'll lay it out straight: what I oppose is tokenism. If a character contributes to the story, yes, by all means include them. If a character's orientation is important to their development as a character, by all means - but what I don't want to see is media (be that books, games, movies or television) devolving to the point that there's a PC checklist to mark off when assembling the cast, lest the writers be accused of bigotry. Political correctness is just another form of censorship.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 décembre 2013 - 03:14 .

[General TSAR]

Plaintiff wrote...
They do not need justification for being LGBT . 

They do or else the NPC comes off as a Token Character. 

Modifié par General TSAR, 06 décembre 2013 - 03:13 .

[jillabender]

Br3ad wrote...

That's just the thing though, I want a justification for every character, not just minority ones. Why should Joe Everyman be in my party, that should be important. I've said the same thing in the "I want a party of Mages" thread, and I love mages. Make a topic on it, and I would discuss it. Others may not get that, but I and others have tried very hard to make this clear. The problem here is that people assume that sense we disagree, we must be the outside group, which isn't fair either.

I can appreciate that your intention isn't to impose a double standard where only minority characters need a justification. However, when the question is "Why do you want more characters who belong to 'x' group to identify with in games," I'm not sure what answer there could be apart from "because it makes me feel less alone, and because I prefer for games to send the message that people like me are a normal and accepted part of human variation, and not just an afterthought."

I don't want to come off as hostile – it's just that I can empathize with the loneliness and social alienation that some people feel when they have difficulty finding characters like themselves to identify with in stories, and I don't think that wanting to be included needs any further justification. If your position is that simply wanting to feel accepted is not a valid reason in itself for wanting more characters like oneself to identify with in games, we probably have a fundamental disagreement on this issue.

And to be clear, I recognize that no one story or game can be all things to all people, or satisfy everyone's concerns when it comes to inclusion. I also appreciate that it can be uncomfortable as a creator to have your approach to inclusion put under a microscope, even though I think that pressure is sometimes necessary. I also believe that it's very possible as a writer to put quality first while also being deliberate about asking "why not?" when it comes to inclusion – being deliberate about asking "why not?" does not necessarily need to override everything else.

Your example of the all-mage party is actually another situation where I would say that wanting something in the game doesn't really require a justification beyond "I think I would enjoy it." By that I mean that I think it would be more fair to say "You haven't convinced me that the opportunity to have an all-mage party would make for a better game" than to say "You are not entitled to want that in the game because you have not sufficiently justified why you want it."

Modifié par jillabender, 06 décembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[Maria Caliban]

General TSAR wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
They do not need justification for being LGBT . 

They do or else the NPC comes off as a Token Character. 

Dear Writers,

Please don't make token characters, make good characters.

Love,
Maria



Dear Maria,

We were right in the middle of making a bunch of shallow, token characters whose only contribution to the story was loudly announcing what minority group they were part of.

You really saved our ass on this one!

Love,
The Writers

[jillabender]

Maria Caliban wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
They do not need justification for being LGBT . 

They do or else the NPC comes off as a Token Character. 

Dear Writers,

Please don't make token characters, make good characters.

Love,
Maria



Dear Maria,

We were right in the middle of making a bunch of shallow, token characters whose only contribution to the story was loudly announcing what minority group they were part of.

You really saved our ass on this one!

Love,
The Writers

Hahahahaha, this post is made of win!

Modifié par jillabender, 06 décembre 2013 - 03:19 .