677 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

There is no plastic surgery or hormone treatment possible in a medieval setting. Does it fit in the story universe without forcing it?

I don't think you fully understand transgenderism.  You don't need to have access to plastic surgery or hormone treatment to be transgendered.  Those are some ways that some transgendered people have felt more comfortable in their bodies, but it's not a requirement for being transgendered.

Modifié par daveliam, 06 décembre 2013 - 03:50 .

[Plaintiff]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Re: the second part, who said it had to be (and how is race at all relevant in this discussion)?

Is the implication not obvious? People are saying that minority characters need "justification" for their presence. They might claim that they believe everybody needs equal justification, but their behaviour indicates otherwise. Do you see anyone demanding "justification" for Sebastian's heterosexuality and cisgender identity? No, you don't, because people take it for granted that 

Why is race relevant to a discussion about minority representation? Gee, I don't know.

I'll lay it out straight: what I oppose is tokenism.

'Tokenism' is just a convenient fallback for people and companies that don't want to bother with minority representation, but still want to deflect claims of bigotry. "Silly minorities, don't you see? By excluding you entirely, we're actually being totally progressive and accepting!"

What does 'tokenism' even look like? Who are the 'token' characters in Dragon Age? How can you tell?

If a character contributes to the story, yes, by all means include them.

Um... duh?

If a character's orientation is important to their development as a character, by all means

Why should a character's orientation be important to their development as a character? The orientation of straight characters is never important to their development, and writers are never asked to provide "justification" for a character's heterosexuality. 

- but what I don't want to see is media (be that books, games, movies or television) devolving to the point that there's a PC checklist to mark off when assembling the cast, lest the writers be accused of bigotry. Political correctness is just another form of censorship.

It's simply inconceivable that developers might make a game with a diverse cast just because they want to.

Clearly, Bioware is kowtowing to the Social Justice Fascists, just like every other spineless videogame company flooding the market with bland, cookie-cutter FPS titles starring Haitian post-op transsexual lesbians.

[Petedj06]

[/quote]
I don't think you fully understand transgenderism.  You don't need to have access to plastic surgery or hormone treatment to be transgendered.  Those are some ways that some transgendered people have felt more comfortable in their bodies, but it's not a requirement for being transgendered.
[/quote]

This is one of the biggest problems, and one that is too big for an internet thread. However, like I said before, magic works better than ether plastic surgery or hormones. (gender belt comes to mind). But yes, hormones and surgery are not required for someone to be transgender. 

Modifié par Petedj06, 06 décembre 2013 - 03:51 .

[Br3admax]

jillabender wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

That's just the thing though, I want a justification for every character, not just minority ones. Why should Joe Everyman be in my party, that should be important. I've said the same thing in the "I want a party of Mages" thread, and I love mages. Make a topic on it, and I would discuss it. Others may not get that, but I and others have tried very hard to make this clear. The problem here is that people assume that sense we disagree, we must be the outside group, which isn't fair either.

I can appreciate that your intention isn't to impose a double standard where only minority characters need a justification. However, when the question is "Why do you want more characters who belong to 'x' group to identify with in games," I'm not sure what answer there could be apart from "because it makes me feel less alone, and because I prefer for games to send the message that people like me are a normal and accepted part of human variation, and not just an afterthought."

I don't want to come off as hostile – it's just that I can empathize with the loneliness and social alienation that some people feel when they have difficulty finding characters like themselves to identify with in stories, and I don't think that wanting to be included needs any further justification. If your position is that simply wanting to feel accepted is not a valid reason in itself for wanting more characters like oneself to identify with in games, we probably have a fundamental disagreement on this issue.

And to be clear, I recognize that no one story or game can be all things to all people, or satisfy everyone's concerns when it comes to inclusion. I also appreciate that it can be uncomfortable as a creator to have your approach to inclusion put under a microscope, even though I think that pressure is sometimes necessary. I also believe that it's very possible as a writer to put quality first while also being deliberate about asking "why not?" when it comes to inclusion – being deliberate about asking "why not?" does not necessarily need to override everything else.

Your example of the all-mage party is actually another situation where I would say that wanting something in the game doesn't really require a justification beyond "I think I would enjoy it." By that I mean that I think it would be more fair to say "You haven't convinced me that the opportunity to have an all-mage party would make for a better game" than to say "You are not entitled to want that in the game because you have not sufficiently justified why you want it."

No I get it, and you don't come off as hostile. You can take a good look around you for that.

Anyway, my point is that making more characters doesn't make anyone accept you. People want characters like them, which is perfectly understandable. Nothing is wrong with that. However, I consider myself quality, so I in turn would like someone like me to be of similar quality, behavig like an actual person with logical reasons to want anything. That is all that I'm saying. We don't want billionaire playboys, with sixty-two houses and a tiger, when we say that we want quality characters of any sexual orientation. We simply say that if any character is put into this game, that we want more than their sexual orientation to be what they are remembered for. When you think Seredipity, what do you think about? Was it the great person with an interesting personality and fun to be around who happenes to be transexual, or was it the transexual character? I would want to remember them for the former, not the later. I most certainly don't remember Zevran as the bi elf, or Leliana as the bi women, any more than I remember Alistair as the straight guy or Morrigan as the straight women. There are no higher standards. These standards are...standard. 

[CynicalShep]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why should a character's orientation be important to their development as a character? The orientation of straight characters is never important to their development, and writers are never asked to provide "justification" for a character's heterosexuality. 

But Alistair, the king of Ferelden?

[Plaintiff]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

Bu- but....getting the girl and riding off in the sunset.

The girl can be gotten by another girl, or the girl can be a boy.

I know, TOTAL MIND-SCREW.

[Br3admax]

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Why should a character's orientation be important to their development as a character? The orientation of straight characters is never important to their development, and writers are never asked to provide "justification" for a character's heterosexuality. 

But Alistair, the king of Ferelden?

When did we ask for a character to justify their sexuality? 

[Plaintiff]

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Why should a character's orientation be important to their development as a character? The orientation of straight characters is never important to their development, and writers are never asked to provide "justification" for a character's heterosexuality. 

But Alistair, the king of Ferelden?

Could easily be turned into a woman with virtually no plot change. There was never any suggestion that Anora's gender made her somehow unfit to rule, so why shouldn't Alistair be Alice instead?

He could also easily be gay, or bisexual. He would still be exactly as capable of producing heirs as he was before. His same-sex lovers would just be consorts, exactly like the dwarven or elven female romance.

[Plaintiff]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

Bu- but....getting the girl and riding off in the sunset.

The girl can be gotten by another girl, or the girl can be a boy.

I know, TOTAL MIND-SCREW.

Nah.

Then again I'm a huge James Bond fan, so you'll have to excuse me. Besides weren't you saying that lesbian relationships were pandering to the straight male demographic? Might wanna adjust your post to fit your views more. 

I won't excuse you, because there's no reason James Bond needs to be straight either. Hell, the women in his films could be replaced with furniture, and basically nothing would change.

No, I said that the lesbian relationships in Mass Effect were created for the purposes of titillating straight men. This is made blatantly obvious when taken in conjuction with the fact that it took three games for them to come up with any gay male characters at all.

[Plaintiff]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

'Tokenism' is just a convenient fallback for people and companies that don't want to bother with minority representation, but still want to deflect claims of bigotry. "Silly minorities, don't you see? By excluding you entirely, we're actually being totally progressive and accepting!"

What does 'tokenism' even look like? Who are the 'token' characters in Dragon Age? How can you tell?

>implying that minorities actually care about being included in Bioware games.

I'm a minority, and I care, so I can say outright, with absolute confidence, that some do.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 décembre 2013 - 04:04 .

[slimgrin]

Plaintiff wrote...

I won't excuse you, because there's no reason James Bond needs to be straight either. 

http://t0.gstatic.co...RZpsjKtMuFBAZbP

[Enigmatick]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

'Tokenism' is just a convenient fallback for people and companies that don't want to bother with minority representation, but still want to deflect claims of bigotry. "Silly minorities, don't you see? By excluding you entirely, we're actually being totally progressive and accepting!"

What does 'tokenism' even look like? Who are the 'token' characters in Dragon Age? How can you tell?

>implying that minorities actually care about being included in Bioware games.

I'm a minority, and I care, so I can say outright, with absolute confidence, that some do.

Barely.

Modifié par Enigmatick, 06 décembre 2013 - 04:05 .

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

Bu- but....getting the girl and riding off in the sunset.

The girl can be gotten by another girl, or the girl can be a boy.

I know, TOTAL MIND-SCREW.

Nah.

Then again I'm a huge James Bond fan, so you'll have to excuse me. Besides weren't you saying that lesbian relationships were pandering to the straight male demographic? Might wanna adjust your post to fit your views more. 

I won't excuse you, because there's no reason James Bond needs to be straight either. Hell, the women in his films could be replaced with furniture, and basically nothing would change.

No, I said that the lesbian relationships in Mass Effect were created for the purposes of titillating straight men. This is made blatantly obvious when taken in conjuction with the fact that it took three games for them to come up with any gay male characters at all.

What about gay females, Plantiff? What if BioWare made some lesbian relationships for them. 

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There's little to no reason at all why any particular role in a given story must be fulfilled by a straight, white cisgender male.

Bu- but....getting the girl and riding off in the sunset.

The girl can be gotten by another girl, or the girl can be a boy.

I know, TOTAL MIND-SCREW.

Nah.

Then again I'm a huge James Bond fan, so you'll have to excuse me. Besides weren't you saying that lesbian relationships were pandering to the straight male demographic? Might wanna adjust your post to fit your views more. 

I won't excuse you, because there's no reason James Bond needs to be straight either. Hell, the women in his films could be replaced with furniture, and basically nothing would change.

No, I said that the lesbian relationships in Mass Effect were created for the purposes of titillating straight men. This is made blatantly obvious when taken in conjuction with the fact that it took three games for them to come up with any gay male characters at all.

What about gay females, Plantiff? What if BioWare made some lesbian relationships for them. 

They did. In Dragon Age.

[CynicalShep]

Plaintiff wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Why should a character's orientation be important to their development as a character? The orientation of straight characters is never important to their development, and writers are never asked to provide "justification" for a character's heterosexuality. 

But Alistair, the king of Ferelden?

Could easily be turned into a woman with virtually no plot change. There was never any suggestion that Anora's gender made her somehow unfit to rule, so why shouldn't Alistair be Alice instead?

He could also easily be gay, or bisexual. He would still be exactly as capable of producing heirs as he was before. His same-sex lovers would just be consorts, exactly like the dwarven or elven female romance.

Oh, there would be a plot change. The idea was to have a king and a queen and that is achievable with a male and a female. You can have him in charge. You can have her in charge. You can have them in charge. Since Anora is a lady, you have to change the plot or the lore in order to have him be anything other than a straight male. Same applies to Morrigan.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 06 décembre 2013 - 04:13 .

[Plaintiff]

Enigmatick wrote...
Barely.

Luckily, the degree to which I 'count' as a minority has no bearing on the validity of my perspective regarding minority issues.

[Plaintiff]

CynicalShep wrote...
Oh, there would be a plot change. The idea was to have a king and a queen and that is achievable with a male and a female. You can have him in charge. You can have her in charge. You can have them in charge. Since Anora is a lady, you have to change the plot or the lore in order to have him be anything other than a straight male. Same applies to Morrigan.

So take away the option for Anora and Alice to marry. Not a big deal at all.

[Lazengan]

Oh FFS please no

Video games are not your medium for your liberal agenda and other self gratification garbage

http://www.youtube.c...B5snyJfXk#t=382

These "people" make me cringe. They don't even make games, and they force others to accommodate them

A reviewer gave GTA 5 a poor review because "I couldn't relate to it as a transexual". What the actual ****

Modifié par Lazengan, 06 décembre 2013 - 04:17 .

[Plaintiff]

"Reviewers are only allowed to complain about MY issues, not THEIR issues."

[addiction21]

The Mad Hanar wrote...


And people can have their transgender character. I do not care.

You care enough to continually post and pull the "I am of a minority so because I don't care no one else should either" card.

[addiction21]

Lazengan wrote...

Oh FFS please no

Video games are not your medium for your liberal agenda and other self gratification garbage

http://www.youtube.c...B5snyJfXk#t=382

These "people" make me cringe. They don't even make games, and they force others to accommodate them

A reviewer gave GTA 5 a poor review because "I couldn't relate to it as a transexual". What the actual ****

Well none of these are games so why would you care?

Modifié par addiction21, 06 décembre 2013 - 04:20 .

[daveliam]

addiction21 wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...


And people can have their transgender character. I do not care.

You care enough to continually post and pull the "I am of a minority so because I don't care no one else should either" card.

This. 

You know, there are bunch of threads on the BSN that I genuinely don't care about.  I don't go into those threads.  Why?  Because I don't care about them.  I go into threads that I agree with.  I go into threads that I disagree with.  I go into threads that I have no opinion other way, but am interested in reading.  But the ones that I "don't care" about?  Those one, I don't go into.