677 réponses à ce sujet

[Abraham_uk]

As long as they're fully fleshed out characters, there is no problem with it.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[Br3admax]

J. Reezy wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Uh... WHHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYY??????????????

Because reasons.

Becasue inclusive. 

[Vulpe]

@ Abraham_uk

Who's Sarah Armstrong ?

[Mr.House]

Statare wrote...

Liamv2 wrote...

Maybe but this is one of those things that you need to be careful doing. It is better to not do it than to do it wrong.

I agree with you, but there are already transgender or transvestite characters in the DA games. They are already done wrong.

Seredipity (unclear if she is transgender or transvestite) is an example where the writers or developers or whoever thought it was a good idea to put transgender and transvestite characters in the game as 'jokes'. I know many people did not find her character inherently humorous, and were a little disturbed to discover her as the butt of some poorly developed, middle-school-esque joke in MOTA. The punchline is "lol she's a guy," and we are supposed to react in horror, disgust, or chuckle [EDIT:] even if we don't want our Hawke to act that way. Our characters and Tallis think it's 'awkward' and 'funny' too. So Bioware is already putting them in the game and doing it poorly and immaturely. 

Wrong. That dialog in MoA was made for people who slept with Seredpity at the Rose which resulted in her having uniuqe dialog with Hawke which made Talis dialog make sense. Mary already talked about this and admitted she forgot to make other dialog for Hawkes who did not sleep with her and outright said sorry to people who where offended and that was not the intention. Before you spout stuff, please make sure you have the facts right. She was not to be a joke, it came that way because the writer made a mistake and outright admitted it.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I don't really care one way or the other.

[durasteel]

Seagloom wrote...
...
Then there are other categories such as queer; who do not feel comfortable conforming to a binary gender system at all.
...

I never thought in terms of "conforming" to a two-gender system. I mean, with the exception of a very few people with genetic abnormalities, we (along with the rest of multi-celled animals) have two genders. You can dress as the other one or remodel yourself to resemble the other one, but X and Y chromosomes and the system by which species on this rock have evolved to propagate are kinda hard to argue with.

Might raise interesting issues on another rock somewhere, like Thedas. We already know elves have magic genetics somehow, so... maybe they could flip genders like certain types of lizards. Maybe in Inquisition Zevran might have a different shaped breastplate. Anything is possible in a fantasy world.

Modifié par durasteel, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:08 .

[David Gaider]

I'll just say a couple of things with regards to this topic, and some of the conversation in general that seems to arise whenever this topic (or ones similar) appears on our forums:

With regards to Serendipity, I think we mentioned when this was first brought up that the "that was awkward" comment following meeting Serendipity in MotA was actually a bug. It was meant to be a reaction if Hawke had slept with Serendipity at the Blooming Rose, not a reaction to Serendipity simply being there.

But our intention was irrelevant. The bug was there, and thus it was a short trip to interpret it in a way that made it look like Serendipity herself was meant to be the joke. It's also irrelevant that she was intended to essentially be a drag queen. She didn't appear that way, and she was yet another sex worker and a character included to be humorous. So, point taken. We can do better than that. Maevaris Tilani was written into the DA comic as a personal attempt regarding how I could include a transgender character without that being the entire point of her inclusion--because her role in the story was not simply "the transgender character". She was made first, and the transgender aspect came up later.

The last point above is important. Any character whose sole concept is their sexual identity or their race or what have you stands a good chance of being pretty boring. People who say "[the writers] should focus on making good characters!" are correct... that is what we should do. It does not follow, however, that simply asking the question "why not?" can't come up at some point in that character's creation. We're perfectly comfortable with creating our good characters and also asking why they couldn't also be transgender or gay or black (or an elf or a dwarf or... you get the picture?).

There seems to be an impression that the default of any character is to be white and male and straight, and that said character must go to great lengths to justify being anything else... and that, in becoming anything else, would also have to make them completely about that thing. It's not so. Just because we took an interesting male warrior and made him female doesn't suddenly mean we have to write him as the most female female to have ever femaled. That would be bad writing, and to assume that it's an automatic result is reductio ad absurdum.

So relax. There's no harm in asking to see more transgender characters or any other kind of minority character. We're not going to put them into places where they don't fit, but it doesn't follow that there are no places at all where they will fit... because there very likely are. That's a conversation that we and more creators should have, and if it seems like having it is a very deliberate action that's because deliberateness is evidently required--or it's forgotten entirely. And the fact that's so easy to do is sad, as diversity makes characters and settings more interesting and not less.

And if one's response is that, no, the very existence of such characters is "shoving them down your throat" no matter how much in the minority they still might be... well, that's too bad. This isn't an escapist fantasy for straight white folks to pretend they're the only people who exist--it's a fantasy for everyone to be part of, and it's not too much to ask for the game to acknowledge that fact occasionally. Acting like DA is "going too far" just by considering having a few or even one character that's a little different, as if that makes us some radical bastion of equality unable to do anything other than make characters which are soulless soap-boaxes-- I mean, come on. We can do better. I can do better. If doing better in this one small thing is so untenable, then I'd suggest moving onto one of the many other games out there which wouldn't bother.

Seeing as you have such a choice available to you. Which is a rather nice thing to have, isn't it?

[Silfren]

Mr.House wrote...

Statare wrote...

Liamv2 wrote...

Maybe but this is one of those things that you need to be careful doing. It is better to not do it than to do it wrong.

I agree with you, but there are already transgender or transvestite characters in the DA games. They are already done wrong.

Seredipity (unclear if she is transgender or transvestite) is an example where the writers or developers or whoever thought it was a good idea to put transgender and transvestite characters in the game as 'jokes'. I know many people did not find her character inherently humorous, and were a little disturbed to discover her as the butt of some poorly developed, middle-school-esque joke in MOTA. The punchline is "lol she's a guy," and we are supposed to react in horror, disgust, or chuckle [EDIT:] even if we don't want our Hawke to act that way. Our characters and Tallis think it's 'awkward' and 'funny' too. So Bioware is already putting them in the game and doing it poorly and immaturely. 

Wrong. That dialog in MoA was made for people who slept with Seredpity at the Rose which resulted in her having uniuqe dialog with Hawke which made Talis dialog make sense. Mary already talked about this and admitted she forgot to make other dialog for Hawkes who did not sleep with her and outright said sorry to people who where offended and that was not the intention. Before you spout stuff, please make sure you have the facts right. She was not to be a joke, it came that way because the writer made a mistake and outright admitted it.

That may be true, but as the scene stands, it's still problematic, and as much as I don't want to find fault with Bioware over this, that "explanation" rings hollow because the scene plays out EXACTLY as Statare describes, as "lulz she's a guy" joke # 849859381.  It's hard to believe it was an accident and that the follow-up response from Bioware wasn't a scramble to cover their butts.

[Mr.House]

Silfren wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Statare wrote...

Liamv2 wrote...

Maybe but this is one of those things that you need to be careful doing. It is better to not do it than to do it wrong.

I agree with you, but there are already transgender or transvestite characters in the DA games. They are already done wrong.

Seredipity (unclear if she is transgender or transvestite) is an example where the writers or developers or whoever thought it was a good idea to put transgender and transvestite characters in the game as 'jokes'. I know many people did not find her character inherently humorous, and were a little disturbed to discover her as the butt of some poorly developed, middle-school-esque joke in MOTA. The punchline is "lol she's a guy," and we are supposed to react in horror, disgust, or chuckle [EDIT:] even if we don't want our Hawke to act that way. Our characters and Tallis think it's 'awkward' and 'funny' too. So Bioware is already putting them in the game and doing it poorly and immaturely. 

Wrong. That dialog in MoA was made for people who slept with Seredpity at the Rose which resulted in her having uniuqe dialog with Hawke which made Talis dialog make sense. Mary already talked about this and admitted she forgot to make other dialog for Hawkes who did not sleep with her and outright said sorry to people who where offended and that was not the intention. Before you spout stuff, please make sure you have the facts right. She was not to be a joke, it came that way because the writer made a mistake and outright admitted it.

That may be true, but as the scene stands, it's still problematic, and as much as I don't want to find fault with Bioware over this, that "explanation" rings hollow because the scene plays out EXACTLY as Statare describes, as "lulz she's a guy" joke # 849859381.  It's hard to believe it was an accident and that the follow-up response from Bioware wasn't a scramble to cover their butts.

*sigh* Bioware devs admit they made a mistake and was not there intention even goingas far to say they failed at this scene and peopel still post this nonsense.

[Silfren]

durasteel wrote...

Statare wrote...
...or you are roleplaying your Hawke as transgendered (it's possible guys).
...

You mean, you go with a beardless male Hawke and headcanon the character as female, or headcanon your female Hawke as male? To each his or her own, I suppose.

I can see riffing on the gender identity of an NPC, but I'm less clear on the logic of a transPC since you get to choose the gender at creation. I'll be the first to admit, however, that the whole "T" thing bewilders me.

Well, it doesn't do much for people who want to roleplay their PC as a gender other than male or female, but for those trans who DO see themselves as either male or female, it's easy enough to pick the "female" option and roleplay that you're a transfemale.  It isn't as though identifying as male or female rules out the trans* issue.

[Br3admax]

I don't think that the template should be white, male, and super cool. I think the template should be, "I have an idea for a character. Let's see what happens," and most certainly not, "We need a transsexual character, let's just make one. For the fans." I don't think the people who agree with me are saying we need more white, straight, elitist dudes, especially considering that a lot of them don't even fit into this group themselves. We simply question why someone wants a character because of what they are not who they are. It's cool if you want that kind of thing, we just don't understand it. It seems insulting to me.

[Silfren]

Secretlyapotato wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Serendipity?

I don't think Bioware will be doing another joke transgender character.

Moreover, Serendipity was NOT transgender, per Gaider's own words.  That was cross-dressing.

Transgender is an umbrella term that includes crossdressers and transsexuals.

Very well.  If that's the case, I'll concede it.  But I still would prefer that people didn't equate Maevaris and Serendipity as identical, even so. 

[Seagloom]

durasteel wrote...

I never thought in terms of "conforming" to a two-gender system. I mean, with the exception of a very few people with genetic abnormalities, we (along with the rest of multi-celled animals) have two genders. You can dress as the other one or remodel yourself to resemble the other one, but X and Y chromosomes and the system by which species on this rock have evolved to propagate are kinda hard to argue with.

Well see, this is what I meant by a vast topic. What you are referring to is biological sex. What I'm referring to is gender in the sense of personal perception and societal roles. The underlying belief is gender is a social construct that codifies certain behaviors and traits to the sexes. Some folks feel they are who they are, and don't want to be bound by the limitations of that social construct.

I don't want to co-opt this thread by getting too into the topic, so I'll leave it at that.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

If there are plans for one, can we get a transgender character who actually has character? One thst is either 1. Not defined soley or mostly by their sexuality, 2. One that has an interesting history snd story not soley dependant on the player?

If they're going to have another one as a easter egg of sorts, thsts cool and could even be funny. But if were getting a "character", there is a lot more to thst then a funny extra npc role.

[MrMrPendragon]

Sure why not? It's not like everything we suggest appears in-game. So just keep firing those suggestions and let them decide which ones to put.

But I'm fine with regular wh*res.

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:22 .

[Silfren]

Mr.House wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Wrong. That dialog in MoA was made for people who slept with Seredpity at the Rose which resulted in her having uniuqe dialog with Hawke which made Talis dialog make sense. Mary already talked about this and admitted she forgot to make other dialog for Hawkes who did not sleep with her and outright said sorry to people who where offended and that was not the intention. Before you spout stuff, please make sure you have the facts right. She was not to be a joke, it came that way because the writer made a mistake and outright admitted it.

That may be true, but as the scene stands, it's still problematic, and as much as I don't want to find fault with Bioware over this, that "explanation" rings hollow because the scene plays out EXACTLY as Statare describes, as "lulz she's a guy" joke # 849859381.  It's hard to believe it was an accident and that the follow-up response from Bioware wasn't a scramble to cover their butts.

*sigh* Bioware devs admit they made a mistake and was not there intention even goingas far to say they failed at this scene and peopel still post this nonsense.

Maybe so.  I'm glad they at least acknowledged the problem.  But that doesn't change the fact that it IS yet another example of a transperson being made into a joke.  The apology is hardly going to erase the fact that the scene was put in, and left in, and therefore, intended or not, remains only the latest in a long tradition of making jokes at transpeople's expense. 

Going on, it should be pointed out that even if that dialogue was ONLY intended to flag if your Hawke actually had slept with Serendipity, how does that make it less problematic?  The dialogue we get doesn't indicate that "awkward" is even MEANT to refer to Hawke's having slept with Serendipity.  How would Tallis, after all, even know to say that?  If it was meant to be a reference to the awkwardnes of Hawke meeting up with a past one-night stand, then the dialogue provided should have more clearly reflected that rather than being left ambiguous enough to come across as a joke over who Serendipity is, anyway.

Regardless of an apology from Bioware and whatever excuse they have for it, it's a valid criticism. 

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:28 .

[MKDAWUSS]

This is why modding should be encouraged.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think that the template should be white, male, and super cool. I think the template should be, "I have an idea for a character. Let's see what happens," and most certainly not, "We need a transsexual character, let's just make one. For the fans." I don't think the people who agree with me are saying we need more white, straight, elitist dudes, especially considering that a lot of them don't even fit into this group themselves. We simply question why someone wants a character because of what they are not who they are. It's cool if you want that kind of thing, we just don't understand it. It seems insulting to me.

This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character". 

Doesn't mean I endorse a whiter then a snowy winter malescape, but if they make more interesting and diversed in personality and arcs, then i don't mind bearing thst for the sake of good writing from writers working hard to write such a story.

[Mr.House]

Silfren wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Wrong. That dialog in MoA was made for people who slept with Seredpity at the Rose which resulted in her having uniuqe dialog with Hawke which made Talis dialog make sense. Mary already talked about this and admitted she forgot to make other dialog for Hawkes who did not sleep with her and outright said sorry to people who where offended and that was not the intention. Before you spout stuff, please make sure you have the facts right. She was not to be a joke, it came that way because the writer made a mistake and outright admitted it.

That may be true, but as the scene stands, it's still problematic, and as much as I don't want to find fault with Bioware over this, that "explanation" rings hollow because the scene plays out EXACTLY as Statare describes, as "lulz she's a guy" joke # 849859381.  It's hard to believe it was an accident and that the follow-up response from Bioware wasn't a scramble to cover their butts.

*sigh* Bioware devs admit they made a mistake and was not there intention even goingas far to say they failed at this scene and peopel still post this nonsense.

Maybe so.  I'm glad they at least acknowledged the problem.  But that doesn't change the fact that it IS yet another example of a transperson being made into a joke.  The apology is hardly going to erase the fact that the scene was put in, and left in, and therefore, intended or not, remains only the latest in a long tradition of making jokes and transpeople's expense. 

Going on, it should be pointed out that even if that dialogue was ONLY intended to flag if your Hawke actually had slept with Serendipity, how does that make it less problematic?  The dialogue we get doesn't indicate that "awkward" is even MEANT to refer to Hawke's having slept with Serendipity.  How would Tallis, after all, even know to say that?  If it was meant to be a reference to the awkwardnes of Hawke meeting up with a past one-night stand, then the dialogue provided should have more clearly reflected that rather than being left ambiguous enough to come across as a joke anyway.

Regardless of an apology from Bioware and whatever excuse they have for it, it's a valid criticism. 

Except it cleary reflected it if you slept with her. Talis reaction is natural regardless of who Hawke slept with. Talis is seeing a worker at a **** house who just mentioned a sexual liason with her partner, anyone in Talis shoes would have felt this was awkward, regardless of who it is.

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think that the template should be white, male, and super cool. I think the template should be, "I have an idea for a character. Let's see what happens," and most certainly not, "We need a transsexual character, let's just make one. For the fans." I don't think the people who agree with me are saying we need more white, straight, elitist dudes, especially considering that a lot of them don't even fit into this group themselves. We simply question why someone wants a character because of what they are not who they are. It's cool if you want that kind of thing, we just don't understand it. It seems insulting to me.

This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character".

What I don't understand is why people assume that is the process by which LGBT characters come about.  Or, for that matter, the assumption that whenever Bioware does include such a character, it's done "to shut people up."  Couldn't possibly be that Bioware simply wants to include such characters in its stories, could it?

[Billy-the-Squid]

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think that the template should be white, male, and super cool. I think the template should be, "I have an idea for a character. Let's see what happens," and most certainly not, "We need a transsexual character, let's just make one. For the fans." I don't think the people who agree with me are saying we need more white, straight, elitist dudes, especially considering that a lot of them don't even fit into this group themselves. We simply question why someone wants a character because of what they are not who they are. It's cool if you want that kind of thing, we just don't understand it. It seems insulting to me.

Pretty much, wait let me check my privilige first though.

Modifié par Tequila Cat, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:35 .

[MrMrPendragon]

I think people's tendency to over-interpret things is just making the simple dialogue scene more complicated than it should be.

When I saw this thread, I was expecting replies of "Sure/No + short reason" kind of answers.
But now everyone's arguing about transgender people either being shoved down your throat, or being made a joke.

[Abraham_uk]

I can't see why there can't be any Transgender NPC's.

Just do what you do with any character.
Write characters not stereotypes.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:06 .