677 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think that the template should be white, male, and super cool. I think the template should be, "I have an idea for a character. Let's see what happens," and most certainly not, "We need a transsexual character, let's just make one. For the fans." I don't think the people who agree with me are saying we need more white, straight, elitist dudes, especially considering that a lot of them don't even fit into this group themselves. We simply question why someone wants a character because of what they are not who they are. It's cool if you want that kind of thing, we just don't understand it. It seems insulting to me.

This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character".

What I don't understand is why people assume that is the process by which LGBT characters come about.  Or, for that matter, the assumption that whenever Bioware does include such a character, it's done "to shut people up."  Couldn't possibly be that Bioware simply wants to include such characters in its stories, could it?

Not to shut people up. There have been LGBT (at least partially) in the past few games.  Look at this forum. Have those that champion it shut up? 

Nope. If anything, they complain even louder.

More likey it's part of the Vitamin RI agenda. The move is inspired for a sense of self-gratification rather than appeasement or profit or anything semi-rational like that.

[CroGamer002]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think that the template should be white, male, and super cool. I think the template should be, "I have an idea for a character. Let's see what happens," and most certainly not, "We need a transsexual character, let's just make one. For the fans." I don't think the people who agree with me are saying we need more white, straight, elitist dudes, especially considering that a lot of them don't even fit into this group themselves. We simply question why someone wants a character because of what they are not who they are. It's cool if you want that kind of thing, we just don't understand it. It seems insulting to me.

This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character". 

Doesn't mean I endorse a whiter then a snowy winter malescape, but if they make more interesting and diversed in personality and arcs, then i don't mind bearing thst for the sake of good writing from writers working hard to write such a story.

Pretty much what I think too.

[Vulpe]

Abraham_uk wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

@ Abraham_uk

Who's Sarah Armstrong ?

I made her up.

[Silfren]

Abraham_uk wrote...

I made her up. I could have used any name I wanted. I chose Sarah Armstrong, because it was the first name that I came up with.

The whole point is that when you in the game interact with her, you never find out that she is Transgender.
She would play an important role in the story.

The only place where it would be mentioned that Sarah Armstrong is Transgender would be the Collectors Edition manual.

Why?

Men rarely bring up the fact they're men.
Women rarely bring up the fact they're women.

And there is probably prejudice against transgender individuals in Thedas, so telling people that one is transgendered would lead to bigoted attacks on her.

Why is there probably prejudice against transgendered people in Thedas?  Does anything in the lore actually suggest there would be?  Because you can't just assume real world prejudice would automatically be in the game.  Especially not when you consider Bioware's handling of LGBT persons thus far.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:44 .

[DeinonSlayer]

What, do they have plastic surgeons in Thedas now?

I'm 100% for building characters from the ground up, but I hardly see why they need to throw logic and technological progression out the window to mark off another box in the PC checklist. I'd hate to see this turn into a medium where every story is required to have at least 1 (one) character of (insert group here) to avoid accusations of bigotry.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:50 .

[Killdren88]

I'm all for equality for all types of people, but really? Must there be at least one of every kind of sexuality in every Bioware game? Don't you think you are expecting too much from Bioware. Yeah they are one of the few devs that tackle this sort of thing. Dose that mean the expectation will always be high for them? That seems like unneeded pressure.

[David Gaider]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character". 

Doesn't mean I endorse a whiter then a snowy winter malescape, but if they make more interesting and diversed in personality and arcs, then i don't mind bearing thst for the sake of good writing from writers working hard to write such a story.

Read my response.

Some people seem to assume that the only way such a character could be included is for "quota appeal", as you put it, or that doing so would rob the character of all personality. Which it would, if that were the only inspiration behind such a character, but why does that need to be the case?

Not that the generous forbearance of us writers making more interesting and diverse characters isn't totally appreciated.

[Malkavianqueen]

David Gaider wrote...

The last point above is important. Any character whose sole concept is their sexual identity or their race or what have you stands a good chance of being pretty boring. People who say "[the writers] should focus on making good characters!" are correct... that is what we should do. It does not follow, however, that simply asking the question "why not?" can't come up at some point in that character's creation. We're perfectly comfortable with creating our good characters and also asking why they couldn't also be transgender or gay or black (or an elf or a dwarf or... you get the picture?).

There seems to be an impression that the default of any character is to be white and male and straight, and that said character must go to great lengths to justify being anything else... and that, in becoming anything else, would also have to make them completely about that thing. It's not so. Just because we took an interesting male warrior and made him female doesn't suddenly mean we have to write him as the most female female to have ever femaled. That would be bad writing, and to assume that it's an automatic result is reductio ad absurdum.

So relax. There's no harm in asking to see more transgender characters or any other kind of minority character. We're not going to put them into places where they don't fit, but it doesn't follow that there are no places at all where they will fit... because there very likely are. That's a conversation that we and more creators should have, and if it seems like having it is a very deliberate action that's because deliberateness is evidently required--or it's forgotten entirely. And the fact that's so easy to do is sad, as diversity makes characters and settings more interesting and not less.

And if one's response is that, no, the very existence of such characters is "shoving them down your throat" no matter how much in the minority they still might be... well, that's too bad. This isn't an escapist fantasy for straight white folks to pretend they're the only people who exist--it's a fantasy for everyone to be part of, and it's not too much to ask for the game to acknowledge that fact occasionally. Acting like DA is "going too far" just by considering having a few or even one character that's a little different, as if that makes us some radical bastion of equality unable to do anything other than make characters which are soulless soap-boaxes-- I mean, come on. We can do better. I can do better. If doing better in this one small thing is so untenable, then I'd suggest moving onto one of the many other games out there which wouldn't bother.

Seeing as you have such a choice available to you. Which is a rather nice thing to have, isn't it?

It's statements like this that make me happy to support Bioware. If only more game companies asked, "Why not?" when it was appropriate/fitting for the character. I don't like token characters either, but I think most people asking for things like this are underrepresented in the media and just want to see a character they can relate to. So I don't think asking for minority NPCs or even PCs is anything to get upset about. It's Bioware's game in the end. It's just nice that they think about things like this in the development process. ^__^

[Hellion Rex]

Killdren88 wrote...

I'm all for equality for all types of people, but really? Must there be at least one of every kind of sexuality in every Bioware game? Don't you think you are expecting too much from Bioware. Yeah they are one of the few devs that tackle this sort of thing. Dose that mean the expectation will always be high for them? That seems like unneeded pressure.

All we can do is bring up the topic. And no, I don't think we expect too much from Bioware in this regard, when a person is just looking for a bit more representation.

[Mr.House]

As long as the character is not shoehorned in, I don't care if it's a purple monkey with pink stripes.

[Br3admax]

David Gaider wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character". 

Doesn't mean I endorse a whiter then a snowy winter malescape, but if they make more interesting and diversed in personality and arcs, then i don't mind bearing thst for the sake of good writing from writers working hard to write such a story.

Read my response.

Some people seem to assume that the only way such a character could be included is for "quota appeal", as you put it, or that doing so would rob the character of all personality. Which it would, if that were the only inspiration behind such a character, but why does that need to be the case?

Not that the generous forbearance of us writers making more interesting and diverse characters isn't totally appreciated.

Yes, but I also do not appreciate be called things like: racist, sexist, elitist, and homophobic, simply from expressing this view point. You guys can make whatever character you want. However, no one requests good characters. They request a character of a certain trait and then quality second. I'm responding more to them than you. Why can't quality come first? 

[Killdren88]

eluvianix wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

I'm all for equality for all types of people, but really? Must there be at least one of every kind of sexuality in every Bioware game? Don't you think you are expecting too much from Bioware. Yeah they are one of the few devs that tackle this sort of thing. Dose that mean the expectation will always be high for them? That seems like unneeded pressure.

All we can do is bring up the topic. And no, I don't think we expect too much from Bioware in this regard, when a person is just looking for a bit more representation.

Oh I agree with you fully. Having more homosexual characters it a good thing in my book. But one needs to be realistic. Bioware can't represent every group. Should they have a few pansexuals, Asexuals, or even Polysexuals Characters as well?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think that the template should be white, male, and super cool. I think the template should be, "I have an idea for a character. Let's see what happens," and most certainly not, "We need a transsexual character, let's just make one. For the fans." I don't think the people who agree with me are saying we need more white, straight, elitist dudes, especially considering that a lot of them don't even fit into this group themselves. We simply question why someone wants a character because of what they are not who they are. It's cool if you want that kind of thing, we just don't understand it. It seems insulting to me.

This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character".

What I don't understand is why people assume that is the process by which LGBT characters come about.  Or, for that matter, the assumption that whenever Bioware does include such a character, it's done "to shut people up."  Couldn't possibly be that Bioware simply wants to include such characters in its stories, could it?

All I know is from the evidence that we have access to. Dragon age 2 had gay romances by cheating and removing the gender identifier for characters and having all the romance content the same for both sides. And Mass effect 3 was worse, because the two characters they made to be gay romances were pretty bland, had less content the  every other chsracter, and requires dlc in order tk flesh them out. And their bi option had to be retconed into exsistence in order to appease fand from mass effect 1 who modded their games to romance him as a male.

[Br3admax]

In fairness, I think Kaiden was always intended to be bi.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Br3ad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character". 

Doesn't mean I endorse a whiter then a snowy winter malescape, but if they make more interesting and diversed in personality and arcs, then i don't mind bearing thst for the sake of good writing from writers working hard to write such a story.

Read my response.

Some people seem to assume that the only way such a character could be included is for "quota appeal", as you put it, or that doing so would rob the character of all personality. Which it would, if that were the only inspiration behind such a character, but why does that need to be the case?

Not that the generous forbearance of us writers making more interesting and diverse characters isn't totally appreciated.

Yes, but I also do not appreciate be called things like: racist, sexist, elitist, and homophobic, simply from expressing this view point. You guys can make whatever character you want. However, no one requests good characters. They request a character of a certain trait and then quality second. I'm responding more to them than you. Why can't quality come first? 

This. No offense mister gaider but you guys do really poor jobs at ccurtailing the name calling and baseless accusations from your overzealous supporters.

And I was not saying all gay characters are written by quota, maybe you should read my responses before trying to lecture me. I am saying characters should be characters first,  and representatives for a certsin cause or group secone. Thst was the very first thing I wrote in this thread as well. 

And it isn't like there isn't reason to think such characters might not be getting the quality they deserve, seeing how such characters have been handled in the past.

@bra3d. Maybe. I am not sn aauthority on what his character was mesnt to be.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:00 .

[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Read my response.

Some people seem to assume that the only way such a character could be included is for "quota appeal", as you put it, or that doing so would rob the character of all personality. Which it would, if that were the only inspiration behind such a character, but why does that need to be the case?

Not that the generous forbearance of us writers making more interesting and diverse characters isn't totally appreciated.

Yes, but I also do not appreciate be called things like: racist, sexist, elitist, and homophobic, simply from expressing this view point. You guys can make whatever character you want. However, no one requests good characters. They request a character of a certain trait and then quality second. I'm responding more to them than you. Why can't quality come first? 

Might have something to do with the assumption on your part that by people asking for those characters to be included in the game, they're somehow also okay with those characters being badly written.  Why on earth would you think this is what people want?

[Br3admax]

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Read my response.

Some people seem to assume that the only way such a character could be included is for "quota appeal", as you put it, or that doing so would rob the character of all personality. Which it would, if that were the only inspiration behind such a character, but why does that need to be the case?

Not that the generous forbearance of us writers making more interesting and diverse characters isn't totally appreciated.

Yes, but I also do not appreciate be called things like: racist, sexist, elitist, and homophobic, simply from expressing this view point. You guys can make whatever character you want. However, no one requests good characters. They request a character of a certain trait and then quality second. I'm responding more to them than you. Why can't quality come first? 

Might have something to do with the assumption on your part that by people asking for those characters to be included in the game, they're somehow also okay with those characters being badly written.  Why on earth would you think this is what people want?

Probably becasue they have said it. Every response to someone is not a response to every member of the group. Also when we've said, "As long as they are well written," we are of course greated with, "Why does it need to be well written? This is fantasy." 

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

In fairness, I think Kaiden was always intended to be bi.

I honestly agree with you on that point.

[Mr.House]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
This. Wanting characters made from the bottom up over chsracters made for quota appeal will always yeild better results. Always.

I myself would really like less white male standard characters. But I would be offended if they made one so lackluster and so obviously put in just to shut people up, made for quota with less content, less personality, and defined by "I'm the token X character". 

Doesn't mean I endorse a whiter then a snowy winter malescape, but if they make more interesting and diversed in personality and arcs, then i don't mind bearing thst for the sake of good writing from writers working hard to write such a story.

Read my response.

Some people seem to assume that the only way such a character could be included is for "quota appeal", as you put it, or that doing so would rob the character of all personality. Which it would, if that were the only inspiration behind such a character, but why does that need to be the case?

Not that the generous forbearance of us writers making more interesting and diverse characters isn't totally appreciated.

Yes, but I also do not appreciate be called things like: racist, sexist, elitist, and homophobic, simply from expressing this view point. You guys can make whatever character you want. However, no one requests good characters. They request a character of a certain trait and then quality second. I'm responding more to them than you. Why can't quality come first? 

This. No offense mister gaider but you guys do really poor jobs at ccurtailing the name calling and baseless accusations from your overzealous supporters.

And I was not saying all gay characters are written by quota, maybe you should read my responses before trying to lecture me. I am saying characters should be characters first,  and representatives for a certsin cause or group secone. Thst was the very first thing I wrote in this thread as well. 

And it isn't like there isn't reason to think such characters might not be getting the quality they deserve, seeing how such characters have been handled in the past.

@bra3d. Maybe. I am not sn aauthority on what his character was mesnt to be.

I still got a hoot when I was called a bigot.

Modifié par Mr.House, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:03 .

[Medhia Nox]

If it fits the story? Sure - why not.

If the writers want to make it fit the story well? Sounds great.

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Yes, but I also do not appreciate be called things like: racist, sexist, elitist, and homophobic, simply from expressing this view point. You guys can make whatever character you want. However, no one requests good characters. They request a character of a certain trait and then quality second. I'm responding more to them than you. Why can't quality come first? 

This. No offense mister gaider but you guys do really poor jobs at ccurtailing the name calling and baseless accusations from your overzealous supporters.

And I was not saying all gay characters are written by quota, maybe you should read my responses before trying to lecture me. I am saying characters should be characters first,  and representatives for a certsin cause or group secone. Thst was the very first thing I wrote in this thread as well. 

And it isn't like there isn't reason to think such characters might not be getting the quality they deserve, seeing how such characters have been handled in the past.

@bra3d. Maybe. I am not sn aauthority on what his character was mesnt to be.

From what I've seen, the problem tends to start when people go into threads made in an attempt to have a rational, civil discussion on the issue and go out of their way to spam, derail, and shout down.  It's a mistake to suggest that there has been no exceptionally bad behavior from your camp, which tends to provoke accusations of racism, etc. 

Beyond that, I would also have to ask, again, why the assumption is that LGBT characters in the game AREN'T characters first.  Seems to me the idea that they are representatives for a certain cause or group and nothing more, stems from you, and not the character themselves.  It almost seems like you're saying that any reference at a;; to that character's being LGBT, whether direct or alluded, in dialogue visual, means that they are reduced to being only in for the representation.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:06 .

[Br3admax]

Mr.House wrote...

I still got a hoot when I was called a bigot.

My white privilege was also equally amusing. 

[Exaltation]

All i want is a simple yes/no answer from the developers,to a simple yes/no questions lol.

1) Will there be transgender NPC/s in DA:I? - Yes/No.
2) If the answer above is "Yes",will they have any significant roles(example: companion/quest giver/enemy boss/etc.)? - Yes/No.

[Hellion Rex]

J. Reezy wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

In fairness, I think Kaiden was always intended to be bi.

"Kaiden"?

Kaidan Alenko...