677 réponses à ce sujet

[LarryDavid]

Silfren wrote...
It's a valid question, since sexuality and gender expression are independent character traits from a person's interests and personality and professions they may go into.

Given (a) the fact that humans are hormone driven, ( the biological mechanism that determines the sexual preferences and © the way the brain operates, the question is less valid than you think.

[Lebanese Dude]

Legbiter wrote..

It's the same impulse that drives a Japanese herb to marry his pillow with a picture of his anime "girlfriend", etc. It's one of the creepy sides of gamer culture. 

I'm pretty sure this isn't unique to the gamer culture though.... It spans from movies to music to books etc...

Modifié par Lebdood, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:30 .

[Hellion Rex]

Legbiter wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why does it always comes down to the sexuality of the characters, or in this case I suppose the wanted sex of the character?
Why does it matter? Should it matter?

Because of narcissism.

And people want Bioware to feed said narcissism.

It's the same impulse that drives a Japanese herb to marry his pillow with a picture of his anime "girlfriend", etc. It's one of the creepy sides of gamer culture. 

Totally untrue.

[9TailsFox]

Abraham_uk wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Please don't put words into my mouth. My point was not to suggest there are more places to where such an exploration wouldn't fit, but to suggest that the examination of where such an exploration might take place would still leave plenty of places where that would be just fine.

I guess you have to be deliberately vague about all characters in Dragon Age Inquisition because...

http://t3.gstatic.co...ijXOzVnMeM9OXSA

I am probably only one weirdo who want know nothing about character or basically everything related to story.
-Then Bioware release all available companions?
-What do you mean when, then you play game of course.

[Lebanese Dude]

LarryDavid wrote...

Silfren wrote...
It's a valid question, since sexuality and gender expression are independent character traits from a person's interests and personality and professions they may go into.

Given (a) the fact that humans are hormone driven, ( the biological mechanism that determines the sexual preferences and © the way the brain operates, the question is less valid than you think.

Sure there are slight nuances in how people generally act, but sexual orientation has a negligible effect on people's interests and personality.

Culture and nurture are the players here. A gay man raised in Seattle would be molded in a different way than a gay man in Beirut, even if they have the exact same genes and hormones etc...

Modifié par Lebdood, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why does it always comes down to the sexuality of the characters, or in this case I suppose the wanted sex of the character?
Why does it matter? Should it matter?

Because of narcissism.

And people want Bioware to feed said narcissism.

It's the same impulse that drives a Japanese herb to marry his pillow with a picture of his anime "girlfriend", etc. It's one of the creepy sides of gamer culture. 

Totally untrue.

Silly...don't you know by now that when heteronormative people ask for heteronormative content, it's totally natural and normal and reasonable...but when anyone else does it, they're just narcissists demanding that they be pandered to!

[Lebanese Dude]

Silfren wrote...
Silly...don't you know by now that when heteronormative people ask for heteronormative content, it's totally natural and normal and reasonable...but when anyone else does it, they're just narcissists demanding that they be pandered to!

I want to be pandered to so who curr 

Modifié par Lebdood, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:31 .

[Abraham_uk]

David Gaider wrote...

...because we aren't discussing anything about DAI which hasn't already been announced. Sorry.

Fair enough.

[hoorayforicecream]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why does it always comes down to the sexuality of the characters, or in this case I suppose the wanted sex of the character?
Why does it matter? Should it matter?

People tend to project their own world view on things. When circumstances challenge that world view and take them out of their comfort zone (e.g. Anders hitting on a male player), it makes them feel uncomfortable. But rather than simply admit that it is uncomfortable to them (and thereby admitting a perceived weakness), they usually try to hide it behind a veneer of legitimacy - objectivity, realism, etc. 

This is why they argue that having all love interests be bisexual or player-sexual is "unrealistic". It isn't really unrealistic, it just takes the complaining player outside his or her projected comfort zone.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:33 .

[Lebanese Dude]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why does it always comes down to the sexuality of the characters, or in this case I suppose the wanted sex of the character?
Why does it matter? Should it matter?

People tend to project their own world view on things. When circumstances challenge that world view and take them out of their comfort zone (e.g. Anders hitting on a male player), it makes them feel uncomfortable. But rather than simply admit that it is uncomfortable to them (and thereby admitting a perceived weakness), they usually try to hide it behind a veneer of legitimacy - objectivity, realism, etc. 

This is why they argue that having all love interests be bisexual or player-sexual is "unrealistic". It isn't really unrealistic, it just takes the complaining player outside his or her projected comfort zone.

*clap*

Why is there no clapping smiley?

Modifié par Lebdood, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:35 .

[Silfren]

Lebdood wrote...

LarryDavid wrote...

Silfren wrote...
It's a valid question, since sexuality and gender expression are independent character traits from a person's interests and personality and professions they may go into.

Given (a) the fact that humans are hormone driven, ( the biological mechanism that determines the sexual preferences and © the way the brain operates, the question is less valid than you think.

Sure there are slight nuances in how people generally act, but sexual orientation has a negligible effect on people's interests and personality.

Culture and nurture are the players here. A gay man raised in Seattle would be molded in a different way than a gay man in Beirut, even if they have the exact same genes and hormones etc...

This.  I don't understand the idea that LGBT characters have to fit, at all.  And I'm addressing the perception by fans, not anything Gaider has stated, just so we're clear.

What does that even mean? Because it SOUNDS like what is meant is that LGBT characters can only fill certain roles, that their sexuality can't ever be completely independent of the rest of their story.  Which doesn't make sense, because Meredith would have been exactly the same character even if it had been revealed that she was a lesbian--and that could have been done through no other means than, say, saying that her girlfriend had been one of the victims of her sister's rampage.  It could have been established without having had any particular attention drawn to it than is already given to (perceived) straight NPCs. 

To bring it up again, this is exactly what was done with Maevaris, so I don't see the problem.

[EmperorSahlertz]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why does it always comes down to the sexuality of the characters, or in this case I suppose the wanted sex of the character?
Why does it matter? Should it matter?

People tend to project their own world view on things. When circumstances challenge that world view and take them out of their comfort zone (e.g. Anders hitting on a male player), it makes them feel uncomfortable. But rather than simply admit that it is uncomfortable to them (and thereby admitting a perceived weakness), they usually try to hide it behind a veneer of legitimacy - objectivity, realism, etc. 

This is why they argue that having all love interests be bisexual or player-sexual is "unrealistic". It isn't really unrealistic, it just takes the complaining player outside his or her projected comfort zone.

Well, I do take issue with every love interrest being available to both genders. But not because of some claim to realism. I do not deny that having practically every male throw themselves at me was uncomfotable, but thena gain, I also felt uncomfortable with every female in the party throwing themselves at me. But to get back to why I oject to the player-sexuality: I simply feel that it objectifies the characters. I'd rather there be no love interrests at all, than having them all available at all times.

[KC_Prototype]

No, please God NO! **** Serendipity!

[kinderschlager]

 just doesn't feel like it would fit a mideival/fantasy game to have transgenders (even with magic, there's usually limitations)

so, pass

(cross dresser? yes. "trany"? no)

Modifié par kinderschlager, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:42 .

[MrMrPendragon]

People get all giddy when it comes to sex. Look! We're up to 7 pages in this thread. This is also why threads about romance scenes just won't die.

But the funny part about it is that when people talk about sex here in the forums, they decorate their paragraphs with curtains upon curtains of complicated words that actually don't even belong in their paragraph- claiming maturity, realism, and all that, while the underlying reason is because they just want it to be that way for much simpler reasons.

While I don't claim to see through that facade every single time, I just find it amusing. So why does sex matter in this game? It doesn't. But since its here we might as well talk about it

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:42 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

Oh hey, the "sexuality is only relevant when it's relevant to the character" argument has already been brought up. Good.

hoorayforicecream wrote...
People tend to project their own world view on things. When circumstances challenge that world view and take them out of their comfort zone (e.g. Anders hitting on a male player), it makes them feel uncomfortable. But rather than simply admit that it is uncomfortable to them (and thereby admitting a perceived weakness), they usually try to hide it behind a veneer of legitimacy - objectivity, realism, etc.

a) It was out of character for anyone that's played Awakening.
The tone and plotline of Anders' conversations is drastically different from Hawke to Hawke solely based on gender. As FemHawke, he doesn't ram the fact Karl was his lover down your throat fifty times that first mission.
c) The fact there are two "Accept" options for Anders hitting on you, and the only "Reject" option makes Hawke sound like a howling bigot.

Fenris hits on you as well and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about that, but it might be that it's not beaten into you with the force of a sledgehammer, and you're not forced to take a massive rivalry hit for not being into it.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:43 .

[Nefla]

I wonder, since there isn't any kind of plastic surgery or hormone therapy in DA, is there a way for people to change their dangly bits, etc? (blood magic?) Or would a person be limiting to dressing as the other gender only?

[Silfren]

kinderschlager wrote...

 just doesn't feel like it would fit a mideival/fantasy game to have transgenders (even with magic, there's usually limitations)

so, pass

Transgender isn't something that never existed prior to the 21 century....

And even with magic, you assume that there would be limitations?  Despite there being no reason to think that at all?

[MrMrPendragon]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

a) It was out of character for anyone that's played Awakening.

I don't know about out of character. I've played Awakening.

For all we know Justice was a gay spirit and his ****** attributes passed on to Anders

[Legbiter]

eluvianix wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why does it always comes down to the sexuality of the characters, or in this case I suppose the wanted sex of the character?
Why does it matter? Should it matter?

Because of narcissism.

And people want Bioware to feed said narcissism.

It's the same impulse that drives a Japanese herb to marry his pillow with a picture of his anime "girlfriend", etc. It's one of the creepy sides of gamer culture. 

Totally untrue.

I say it is. When Bioware released the EC for ME 3 they fed our narcissism, when they turned ME 3 into a Japanese dating simulator with the Citadel DLC, they did so again with terrifying gushing from us all.

And when Bioware releases a tranny rainbow bronie who's an otherkin carrot and whatever's trending on Tumblr that week, it'll be another morsel to our misplaced narcissism, and we losers will gobble it up, in lieu of having an actual life.

[Silfren]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Oh hey, the "sexuality is only relevant when it's relevant to the character" argument has already been brought up. Good.

hoorayforicecream wrote...
People tend to project their own world view on things. When circumstances challenge that world view and take them out of their comfort zone (e.g. Anders hitting on a male player), it makes them feel uncomfortable. But rather than simply admit that it is uncomfortable to them (and thereby admitting a perceived weakness), they usually try to hide it behind a veneer of legitimacy - objectivity, realism, etc.

a) It was out of character for anyone that's played Awakening.
The tone and plotline of Anders' conversations is drastically different from Hawke to Hawke solely based on gender. As FemHawke, he doesn't ram the fact Karl was his lover down your throat fifty times that first mission.


Fenris hits on you as well and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about that, but it might be that it's not beaten into you with the force of a sledgehammer, and you're not forced to take a massive rivalry hit for not being into it.

1) Anders doesn't ram Karl being his lover down your throat if you're a male PC either. That's nothing but gross exaggeration though I'll refrain from making assumptions about why you would be so bothered by that scene as to make the exaggeration in the first place.

2) It was only out of character if you assume that what you know about a person from what they tell you once defines that character in totality for all time.

[MrMrPendragon]

Nefla wrote...

I wonder, since there isn't any kind of
plastic surgery or hormone therapy in DA, is there a way for people to
change their dangly bits, etc? (blood magic?) Or would a person be
limiting to dressing as the other gender only?

Dangly bits?

Like penises? Because, you know, it's dangling. And that really hinders the spirit of being transgender.  If you meant penis you should've just said "penis".

As for the blood magic or any magic really, I don't think there's a spell that is specifically for the benefit of transgenders.

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 05 décembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[AutumnWitch]

I know a few transgender people and they do NOT ever want a TG option as a PC. Their logic? They identify as male or female not transgender. The goal of many TG people (not all I admit) is that they simply want to be taken as their new gender and be like everyone else. The TG people I personally know are impossible to tell they were once another gender so they are like just anyone else walking down the street. So when they play a game where they want to identify with their PC they just choose their own gender.

There is this misconception that all TG people walk around and say things like "Hi, I'm George and I am a tragnsgender person." In reality they say, "Hi, I'm George."

In my case, I happen to be a lesbian but don't go around saying, "Hi! I'm Autumn and I'm a lesbian, nice to meet you!" Instead, I say, "Hi, I'm Autumn nice to meet you." My whole identity is not the fact that I am a lesbian, I'm "me" and my sexual preference is just a small part of a much bigger whole.

[kinderschlager]

Silfren wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

 just doesn't feel like it would fit a mideival/fantasy game to have transgenders (even with magic, there's usually limitations)

so, pass

Transgender isn't something that never existed prior to the 21 century....

And even with magic, you assume that there would be limitations?  Despite there being no reason to think that at all?

i was thinking more along the lines of someone who had their gender changed. personally dont want that. person "dressing in drag"? i said i was fine with.


there  are certain things i expect to see and not see in a fantasy versus a sci-fy work. this just isn't one of them for a fantasy game

[hoorayforicecream]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why does it always comes down to the sexuality of the characters, or in this case I suppose the wanted sex of the character?
Why does it matter? Should it matter?

People tend to project their own world view on things. When circumstances challenge that world view and take them out of their comfort zone (e.g. Anders hitting on a male player), it makes them feel uncomfortable. But rather than simply admit that it is uncomfortable to them (and thereby admitting a perceived weakness), they usually try to hide it behind a veneer of legitimacy - objectivity, realism, etc. 

This is why they argue that having all love interests be bisexual or player-sexual is "unrealistic". It isn't really unrealistic, it just takes the complaining player outside his or her projected comfort zone.

Well, I do take issue with every love interrest being available to both genders. But not because of some claim to realism. I do not deny that having practically every male throw themselves at me was uncomfotable, but thena gain, I also felt uncomfortable with every female in the party throwing themselves at me. But to get back to why I oject to the player-sexuality: I simply feel that it objectifies the characters. I'd rather there be no love interrests at all, than having them all available at all times.

This is why the flirtation options should be clearly designated. That way people who don't wish to engage can avoid the relationship, without stepping on the toes of those who wish to engage. I don't think it necessarily objectifies the character to have them available to either gender. I think that it does tend to break the immersion if the storytellers don't do a good enough job of maintaining the character for the relationship. The best example I can think of would be Anders. I don't have a problem with him pursuing a man or a woman. That's perfectly fine. I think that he wouldn't pursue a person who agrees with the Templar mindset.

In my mind, sexuality as it pertains to characterization should only matter if it is relevant to the character's story. Sexuality is usually only relevant to the story when the story itself is actively about the character's sexuality. If the sexuality isn't the main story focus of the character, I don't think that it adds much to the character if the person was explicitly homosexual or heterosexual simply because I think the zots for that character are better spent on that character's story focus, rather than that character's sexuality.