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Melee rogue - how much DEX?


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#1
DarthGizka

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Hi all! Although I've played RPGs before (all KotORs + NWNs, Dungeon Siege, Morrowind/Oblivion), I'm completely new to Dragon Age. On one hand it is just what the doctor ordered: more NWN goodness, all new and improved. On the other hand, the nerfed interface and the completely undocumented rule/combat system are driving me nuts. Where the F is the combat log? Since most item/spell/ability descriptions in the game contain only inane blather, how are we supposed to find out what the stuff does if there is no combat log either? How are we supposed to decide on stat/ability allocation without being able to gauge the impact of these decisions? Play the game 20 times with the same toon to get statistically significant data? I hope you all are giving Bioware hell regarding the upcoming game, if they think more media and less game is the way to go (their press release indicates as much).

Anyway, my first toon - a Dwarven Noble warrior - died the True Death at level 10 somewhere in the Brecilian Forest. He and his party had picked an unwinnable fight with a Revenant and half a dozen other non-trivial undead, by disturbing a gravestone. That was after defeating a pair of ogres with more luck than expertise, which came after a harrowing two-front battle with three bears on one side and three sylvans on the other.

At that point I decided that I was completely outgunned, and that the auto-levelling system of the game sucked boulders through straws (being new to the game and knowing nothing of the character system I had originally decided to trust that the designers knew what the were doing; that was a tragic mistake, of course).

In order to get some idea what to do with the other party members I played the tutorials for each class and origin, up to Lothering for those I found interesting and up to Ostagar for the others. I found the mage class to be the most powerful but also a bit too complicated to play without any experience regarding which spell chains to pick and how to allocate stats; the melee tank was too passive for my taste, the melee DPS too risky for flying blind (1st playthrough!). I found the idea of a ranged rogue quite attractive but felt that I had to learn a bit about melee rogues first before I went further with that character (i.e. beyond Ostagar). Not to mention that the Dalish Elf culture seems to be all about bows and arrows, but a Dalish Elf ranged rogue excels only by not getting any origin bonus of any kind whatsoever.

So I rolled a Human Noble melee rogue of the dual-wielding persuasion, and so far I'm liking her immensely. So far, I've invested points only in CUN as needed for lock-picking and the rest in DEX, but soon my toon will hit level 7 and then I won't be able to hedge my bets any longer. Either DEX or CUN will have to go beyond the (post-Fade) threshold of 30 which seems to the useful minimum in any case, and I also have to decide on the first specialisation although that will almost certainly be Assassin (Duelist not having been unlocked yet and Bard being the sick joke that it is). So it is time to make a decision; some bridges will have to be burnt, no way around that.

Raising DEX raises attack, defence and (to a lesser extent) damage; points diverted into CUN won't take away anything from damage but attack and defence will suffer. Neglecting CUN entirely is not an option because many of the rogue's abilities depend on it. Also, a few points into CON may be necessary as life insurance, seeing that one of my toons with 12 CON (post-Fade) got taken for 75% of her HP in a single hit by a Greater Shade, and another survived a Fire Ball just barely long enough to throw a healing potion onto her remaining 5 HP.

An all-DEX rogue will be almost unhittable but the hits that do go through will hit hard (especially magic). Damage output will be below par (even with backstabbing), since the DEX contribution to damage is only half of what STR contributes to a warrior's melee damage, unless the crit multiplier can be raised from its 1.5 default to something > 2.

Hence I'm inclined to boost CUN instead. To compare the impact of DEX and CUN I'll fix one at 30 and go all out with the other, although in the actual game I'll likely spend some points on other attributes. Looking at level 20 and factoring in Fade/specialisation bonusses we have a minimum CUN mod of 20 for the 'just barely enough CUN' version and a max of 65 (corresponding to final CUN values of 30 and 75 respectively).

With Lethality, base weapon damage will not change compared to an investment in DEX but armour penetration will rise from 2.9 to 9.3, which is certainly notable. The backstab bonus from Exploit Weakness will rise from 4 to 13, which is very notable indeed. Plus, hardly anyone will be able to pass a resistance check against CUN. However, the attack score needs watching since misses don't do any damage at all. All in all, I'm inclined to favour CUN here because that is how I like my toons: you may be able to hit them hard but they hit you harder. Much harder.

As regards specialisations: Assassin was already mentioned (Exploit Weakness), and it certainly favours CUN. The Duelist also favours CUN, by making up for the deficits of low DEX and because the check for Upset Balance is against CUN. The Bard has nothing to offer beyond Song of Valour, and even that seems rather pathetic. If the numbers in the wiki are correct then the regeneration provided by SoV gives you roughly one extra ability/spell use per minute (0.7 combat regen at CUN 30), and going all out on CUN gives you one small ability/spell per minute extra on top of that (1.1 combat regen). Distraction is 1/4 of Disorient at double the cost, and Song of Courage is too little, too late: 3.5 extra damage might have been useful around the time of Ostagar and Lothering but after that it isn't worth the candle if it costs anything. Going all out on CUN boosts that to 5.25, but 1.75 extra damage isn't worth 35 attribute points. All in all the Bard seems very weak, considering that it only has the not exactly overwhelming Song of Valour to recommend it.

Anyway, having decided on a high-CUN Assassin/Duelist with just enough DEX, the question remains just how much is 'just enough DEX'? The most important point here - at least for me - is the attack score since a compromised ability to hit tends to compromise damage output in a big way. There is also the question of how frequently one has to work under the influence of debuffs like Aura of Weakness and still hit reliably (those pesky Revenants, for example). I'd hate to realise one day that I should have started raising DEX 4 or 5 levels ago, or to realise that my toon is irrevocably gimped in a major way like my first auto-levelled adventurer. Sure, on normal difficulty the PC doesn't have contribute anything since the companions can do all the work on their own, but where's the fun in that? I want my toon to pull her weight.

Overall it seems to me that the game designers were most of all interested in nerfing everything to the point where it is hardly worth the bother (except for Dirty Fighting and some ranged abilities, perhaps), compared to what you could do with abilities (feats) in NWN simply by changing stance and switching from sword + board to a two-hander. By swapping the tin suit for a set of robes on top of that you could go from a turtle tank to melee monster with lots of skelly/zombie splattering potential (Paladin). In Dragon Age you're basically stuck with one choice/style forever, except for Arcane Warriors maybe. Switching equipment around like in NWN just isn't viable because the inventory has been nerfed and dumbed down to the point of pure annoyance, and because you have to invest so much into the shield or two-hander styles to be really effective that you cannot master both.

So, how much DEX (and CON) does a cunning rogue need to keep a playthrough at normal difficulty from becoming a frust fest? :unsure:

#2
Mike3207

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Once you get beyond 90 defense-things start getting a lot easier. I'd say on a Cunning build anywhere from 30-40 base Dex. Felon's Coat really helps you out. I'm currently at 40 base for both Dex/Cun and I've got close to 120 Defense at level 15. The only thing you really need to remember is that you'll need about 52 base Dex to get Flicker in Awakenings, so you might need to add more in base Dex later on.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:50 .


#3
Blazomancer

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30 base DEX for equipping the highest tier daggers is enough. And CON is pretty much a redundant attribute in DAO, so neglecting it completely is optimal, otherwise as less as possible.

Attack rating is sometimes an issue while facing enemies head on, so it's better to keep backstabbing most of, if not all the time. Coup de grace makes it easier. Add in party buffs into the mix, attack rating is hardly a problem. Paralyzing poisons and paralyzing runes are also nice to have.

I think Bard is as much as effective as Duelist. CUNN score(modified) for a min-maxer can go past 100 by lvl 25; even if we take 60 CUNN, we are talking +8 attack, +4.5 dmg, and +8 crit% for each party member with SoC. Duelist does provide +10 attack as early as level 7, but that fact alone hardly makes it better.

#4
DarthGizka

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Thanks for the input, greatly appreciated. I see what you mean with CON being redundant in DAO - HP seems to be more a function of age than anything else, and the same for attack score and so on. I also just found out that the frequent misses my toon was seeing came from Dual Striking - apparently some undocumented nerf whereby you are supposed to miss one time out of three, regardless of attack roll. Those misses had me worried because I was seeing them even on toons with high DEX/attack ratings, hence my reluctance to aim for lower DEX.

As regards SoC, for a gift horse it would sure be nice but I just can't see those minor benefits outweighing those from the Duelist line, especially for a cunning rogue who lacks a bit of attack and defence compared to a pure DEX rogue (think revenants or shades springing from out of nowhere). It's not just the sustained ability, it's also Upset Balance (a second Below the Belt, if you will) and the nice DPS spike from Pinpoint Strike. I guess I'll just have to try both and see what comes of it (i.e. second specialisation at level 14).

#5
Blazomancer

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With a tank doing it's job properly, revenants and shades won't even notice the rogue. Even if a straggler comes out of the tank's aggro it can be dealt with Dirty fighting or riposte. Below the Belt, Deadly Strike, Upset Balance are more or less unnecessary for someone who's not a Swashbuckler(aka DEX rogue). Pinpoint strikes doesn't make much sense for a backstabbing rogue, as normal critical hits don't take into account the backstabbing boni, defeating the purpose of playing a CUNN rogue in the first place. The 100% attack bonus is great but you don't really need that if you are flanking or using stuns. And the minor damage numbers from SoC does provide quite a bit of benefit, when you take into account the attack speed of a dual wielder. Not saying Bard is better mind you, it's just a matter of choice depending on gameplay style anyway; but I do believe that Bard increases the combat effectiveness of the team as a whole, & with a tank taking point, it might as well add an extra 10 dps to the rogue backstabbing at maxed out attack speed by mid to endgame.

#6
dainbramage

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First up, here is an overview of combat mechanics. If you're on PC, you might also want to download the detailed tooltips mod that gives how much damage things actually do.

Congratulations on already figuring out that the auto levelling is ****ing terrible. It's so bad that companions you acquire later in the game are nigh unusable on nightmare, so you'll probably find yourself running around with alistair, morrigan, leliana, shale or wynne most of the time. You'll also find that willpower and constitution are both trash. And that leaves warriors investing into str or dex, rogues in dex and/or cun, and mages in magic.

Cunning (with lethality) and dexterity both give the same damage boost for daggers (and bows). Which for a dual wielder averages 0.159 damage per attribute point. Cunning gets its extra damage from talents (exploit weakness and song of courage) and armour penetration, though none of those boosts are multiplied by backstabs (and exploit weakness requires them), as well as providing a much larger boost to large weapons while dex gives none (waraxes get 0.4125 damage per cunning when dual wielding, for example).

Both high cunning and high dex are viable. As are most points in-between. So long as you're spending the attribute on either cunning or dex you'll have a viable character. So you've got that going for you.

Cunning rogues do excellent damage when backstabbing. Highest in the game, in fact (aside from a DW warrior that takes advantage of bugs in dual striking, anyway. Incidentally, turn that off. DS gives 33% more hits for no crits, which is worse than dealing at least 50% more damage with backstabs). They also give some party support from the bard spec (which you're selling short, btw. A high cunning bard gives the whole party ~12 attack, 12 crit chance and 6 damage. This isn't NWN where it's you and your henchman, party wide bonuses are big news and that can be an extra ~25% DPS on any non-mage). Plus you won't need points in device mastery to open locks and disarm traps (the hardest require 70 cunning, each talent reduces that by 10). On the flipside, they have the durability of damp tissue paper, and have trouble hitting anything. A good tank to take threat and allow backstabs is mandatory, as will be attack boosts to your rogue (rally, heroic offense, song of courage, etc).

Dex is a lot more durable (though you still don't want mages on you, and if you're stunned your dex no longer counts to defence and you'll drop quickly), and better at hitting stuff on its own. Of course it doesn't do nearly as much damage, and a dex bard's SoC will be very weak. Which both makes duelist more appealing than bard, but also quite unnecessary. And if they're picking locks they will need to invest some talents into it.

Anyway, high cunning is a killing machine when in a party that is somewhat built around it, dex is better at doing stuff on its own. Neither is really better.

#7
cJohnOne

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I use to like high DEX. because of the high defense since I'm worried about dying. I don't really play melee rogues since I sort of like DW warriors. If I did play one I think I'd try 50% Dex. and 50% cunning. So I get some armor penetration and pick some locks. I don't know how optimal that is though.

#8
DarthGizka

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Thanks, all! You've given me a lot to think about, and a lot of pointers to useful information. I've also found the thread DPS calculations for a DW rogue. The formulas in the wiki seem to be incomplete but I found the stuff in the toolset, and I have started to unravel the mysteries. For one thing I can see now where all the magic numbers like 0.625 and 0.375 come from... Source code is something I can deal with, and at least this way I can get some hard answers in finite time, as opposed to googling and wiki studying which can take forever and often yield only guesswork and superstition. Not to mention the in-game descriptions of abilities and things like that which are even worse than internet lore (i.e. if the description says X then X may or may not have been planned at some stage during development, and something resembling or not resembling X may or may not have ended up in the actual game).

For the time being I'll go with Assassin until level 14 and then fork on Bard and Duelist; for this playthrough I'll favour DEX slighly but I'll try to keep CUN high enough that my toon doesn't have to call herself a 'former rogue' because she can't even disable a trap anymore or effectively kick a Hurlock in the unmentionables. At the end I'll have a better idea what the DEX/CUN tradeoff involves, and I'll also do a bit of poking and prodding with the toolset.

#9
DeathScepter

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Depending on your Rogue build, Dex:Cun can be 2:1 or 1:2 And the Feat Lethality is good for cunning melee rogues as long as your cunning is higher than your strength.

Most Rogue builds will have high Dex or Cun. Having a decent Strength will allow equip your favorite armors and weapons.