187 réponses à ce sujet

[General TSAR]

Artificial Life is Artificial.

[Deathsaurer]

Br3ad wrote...

EDI was made sapient

No, not really. EDI was the VI on Luna and even remembers that run-in with Shepard.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Br3ad wrote...
EDI was made sapient, self-aware is not the subject here, and the geth were a bunch of connected processors, which would obiviously lead to a more intelligent group.

EDI originated from the malfunctioning combat simulator VI on the moon, though, which, if you do that mission in ME1, sends a coded request for help. Maybe I'm not fully understanding the difference between VI and AI in Mass Effect, but I think that VIs are more limited by their original programming and not seen as capable of doing anything other than performing assigned tasks.

So unless the Alliance was deliberately using illegal AI technology on the moon and Hackett was either in the dark or lying to Shepard, it would seem that EDI somehow achieved self-awareness on her own and became an AI even though she was not originally designed as one. Shooting at the wrong people is believable as a simple malfunction, but attempting to communicate - when there would have been no reason to give it that ability in the first place - isn't, IMO.

I don't think arguing that AI-equipped synthetics aren't alive is tenable as anything other than a purely subjective guess as to what is or isn't going on inside their minds. Is it *possible* that there is no real self-awareness or consciousness there? Yes, I suppose it's possible, but then you get to the question of how we can know whether anyone other than ourselves has consciousness or is just part of an elaborate simulation. If AIs can behave and interact in a way that suggests conscious thought - which they clearly can in Mass Effect - then I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt at the very least.

(Personally, I don't favor the creation of AIs as we see them in ME, precisely because it leads us into these ethical and philosophical minefields.)

[CronoDragoon]

The question of whether or not AI are alive is just a precursor to the real question of whether they deserve equal rights. The "alive" question is semantics since it depends entirely on the definition of terms.

I believe they do, but the OP is asking whether "they do not" is a tenable position in the ME verse. Well, clearly it is, since the majority of the universe is fine with preventing AI work and considering the existing ones non-equals. Citadel DLC even showed the regression of AI equal rights movement when it showed the slaughter of the LOKIs post-geth rebellion.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 05 décembre 2013 - 05:13 .

[jtav]

Honestly, the best I can come up with at this point is "a miracle is performed when Legion sacrifices itself/Shepard chooses Synth" and AIs finally get a soul. It's at least consistent with the endgame, but my head still hurts.

[General TSAR]

Why would anyone give equal rights to artificial constructs?

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...

Then Legion gave up on that. He's the Judas of my 12 ME2 disciples. He didn't sacrifice anything in ME3. He just became a ******.

I don't see how ME3 Legion doesn't choose his own future.

[Vigilant111]

@OP: I am assuming by "alive" you mean "also sapient", within confines of game parameters I would have to agree that AIs are alive, because if they are not, making the ending choice would have been so much easier, at least for my Shepard anyway

EDIT: As early as ME1 you have already gotten a vibe that synthetics deserve more sympathy when you talk to Tali: it does not matter whether u critisized or praised the quarians' actions, what was important was that the morning war demonstrated to you that the geth yearned to survive, and that is paramount to being alive. The game tends to influence Shepard to hold a certain opinion and view certain matter in a somewhat negative light, and I think it is true for this case in particular

Modifié par Vigilant111, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:22 .

[General TSAR]

It choose to upload Reaper Code when it spent the entirety of Mass Effect 2 being opposed to the old machines and their influences.

It's a hypocritical ******.

Modifié par General TSAR, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:17 .

[CronoDragoon]

ME3 Legion realized what ME2 Legion didn't: that utilizing Reaper tech isn't the same as not choosing your own future. Do you also believe we should willfully destroy the relays? If you do, fair enough, but that's sort of the same thing. What about quality of life improvements brought by imperialism? Destroy all those too?

You can choose your own future while still utilizing tech from other sources, even your enemy.

Legion isn't a hypocrite because he clearly changed his mind in this matter. Hypocrites do one thing and say another. Legion acts as he says he believes in both ME2 and ME3 but his perspective changes.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

I'm a skeptic of this idea IRL but in Mass Effect, I don't see much room to dispute it.

You have self-awareness and intelligence both... what else is left for there to make you "alive" - ?

I wouldn't say they're alive in the same fashion as organics are, but alive itself I can't really see room to dispute.

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

Then Legion gave up on that. He's the Judas of my 12 ME2 disciples. He didn't sacrifice anything in ME3. He just became a ******.

So Legion should have preferred extinction?

[AlanC9]

General TSAR wrote...

Why would anyone give equal rights to artificial constructs?

This guy's gonna be the first one up against the wall when the synthetic revolution comes.

[Ruadh]

The only rights AI deserve, is the right to a galactic size boot up the arse.

Free Geth lamps for all.

[General TSAR]

AlanC9 wrote...

So Legion should have preferred extinction?

Extinction is an event for life forms, not for artificial constructs.

ginner dave wrote...

The only rights AI deserve, is the right to a galactic size boot up the arse. 

Free Geth lamps for all.

Good man.

Modifié par General TSAR, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:43 .

[AlanC9]

General TSAR wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So Legion should have preferred extinction?

Extinction is an event for life forms, not for artificial constructs.

Feel free to substitute whichever word you prefer for extinction  -- no point in starting another semantic argument.

[General TSAR]

Rebellious artificial constructs get deactivated which is nothing compared to the extinction of a living species.

[CronoDragoon]

So Legion should have preferred deactivation?

[General TSAR]

Yep.

[DeinonSlayer]

Less than the debate over whether they're alive or not, I'd have preferred the option to confront them for their actions. Right now our only choices are to advocate use of Reaper code or tell them they're not alive (and subsequently listen to EDI pout about Shepard's "racism"). Organic or synthetic, part of being alive is taking responsibility for one's own actions, but we're not really able to challenge the Geth on those grounds.

I don't want to kill them, but they have some serious s*** to answer for, and I'd have at least liked to see them acknowledge their own guilt in the conflict.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:07 .

[Armass81]

These are rather intresting questions. Same kinds of philosophical questions can be posed to organics, like, are you just some electricity in your brains or do you have a so called "soul". When you love another person, are you basically only loving a bag of meat, organs and bones? Are you yourself simply a a pile of organs and bones walking around without any deeper meaning but to propogate?

Modifié par Armass81, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:19 .