187 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

loss of command inputs and control failsafes does not suddenly breathe life into steel.

  Let's assume that human beings becoming apex predators on this planet represents some kind of great achievement of humanity, something which had everything to do with our ancient ancestors' ingenuity and stick-to-itiveness and nothing to do with luck whatsoever 

We are all descended from a long line of survivors above all else. if nothing else i would think a person would appreciate what it took to get him, his family, where he is now, posting on a message board on the internet in what is likely the first world, dismissing hardships that could not be dreamt of that led to this point.

Better to be proud of what it took than take the path of the misanthrope.

Modifié par Vicious, 06 décembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[Clayless]

StreetMagic wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

So you're saying I'm not making a point, then immediately say the point I was making (except for the "impossible to engage them" part, something you included randomly) and said "insults" in place of "I found that insulting" (a more accurate statement), then say that you don't want to engage it because you find it insulting?

Then don't. It's that simple.

Telling me that my opinion on what I've observed hurt your feelings isn't going to change anything, all you're telling me is you can't defend your position. I'm not going to sugarcoat an already heavily sugarcoated opinion just in case it hurts someones feelings, and I don't expect you to either. What I do expect you to do is defend your position.

You wont be able to of course, no one goes through this much effort to not defend their position unless they can't defend it in the first place, but I don't expect you to.

You think we're in some fight - but we are not. You did not "hurt my feelings".

I'm actually partly on your side. Somewhat. I want - WANT - to know what your actual point is. How you define life, if you will. And I want to know how it compels you to say AI is no different. How, in your mind, it only takes a basic understanding of biology to reach the same conclusion.

I don't have a "position" to even defend. I haven't even stated anything to you one way or another. I'm asking questions -- along with telling you to stop insulting people. It's not productive. You actually want more people to see things like you do, right? To "enlighten" them, right? Then just say what's on your mind and how you define life. This doesn't have to be complicated.

First off, don't try to mix up "I find that insulting" with "insulting people". Both of those are very different things, saying I insulted people isn't an accurate statement, at most you can say you found my opinion on what I've observed insulting.

Sure, to define the life we're talking about (as not to get lost in semantics with other life), a sentient, self-aware being.

Look at the counter-arguments you see in this thread. There's one about the dinosaurs being wiped out by a meteorite means that we could evolve, so somehow that makes us alive but other self-aware beings not..?

There's another one about "not-natural", which means that our biology makes us alive and them not because..?

It's so ridiculous that it's insulting. Though I'm not going to pretend they insulted me, just because I found their opinions insulting.

[Clayless]

StreetMagic wrote...

OK, fair enough. I needed to just hear more of what you thought, to even talk about my own position.

I'm not even close to even knowing how to define life - and especially artificial life. Simply because I don't have a real/existing model to base any opinion off of yet. We haven't designed an AI yet. We're only in the process of evolving them (slowly). I'll have a definition if it comes.

In the Mass Effect world though, they are not evolving. They exist. I might as well consider them "life", at least for all practical purposes. What I don't necessarily have is respect for life, by default. I still might kill them off, if their goals are opposed to my own sense of life (just like I would kill a Blue Suns soldier or a Collector). This is how I wanted to treat Legion and EDI.

Then your engagement with me was pointless, because was clearly talking about Mass Effect synthetics. There's nothing left to discuss here because we don't clash, you consider them alive.

For future reference, if you want to engage me because you dislike the way I made my point, don't bother. Engage the point, not the way I made it.

[Sion1138]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

As I said, I simply believe that there is no point for AI to exist. What do you really have to gain from an AI that a hyper-advanced non-sentient computer can't already do?

Well, you know how some people want to have children?

[SwobyJ]

"Diplomacy is great when it works, but difficult when everyone already perceives you as a threat."

One of the most interesting lines from him, IMO.

[Rotward]

Vicious wrote...

loss of command inputs and control failsafes does not suddenly breathe life into steel.

  Let's assume that human beings becoming apex predators on this planet represents some kind of great achievement of humanity, something which had everything to do with our ancient ancestors' ingenuity and stick-to-itiveness and nothing to do with luck whatsoever 

We are all descended from a long line of survivors above all else. if nothing else i would think a person would appreciate what it took to get him, his family, where he is now, posting on a message board on the internet in what is likely the first world, dismissing hardships that could not be dreamt of that led to this point.

Better to be proud of what it took than take the path of the misanthrope.

Our ancestors survived by raping, stealing, murdering, and torturing everything including one another. That's not a legacy to be proud of. Then again, we aren't our ancestors, and deserve no credit nor reprimand for their actions. All we are is a parasite, degrading the value of this planet as rapidly as humanly possible. 

I digress. What it really boils down to, is what we value. The particular sctructure of material that makes up flesh, or the mind that operates that flesh. If the mind, the synthetics are equals. If the body, the synthetics are superior, since they're harder to kill. 

Edit: actually, synthetics think at the speed of light, and humans think at less than the speed of sound. Thus, synthetics are superior in every way. 

Modifié par Rotward, 06 décembre 2013 - 06:26 .

[Rotward]

SwobyJ wrote...

"Diplomacy is great when it works, but difficult when everyone already perceives you as a threat."

One of the most interesting lines from him, IMO.

It's a fair point, but a consequence of his actions. Why are we talking about TIM? 

[Bizantura]

Does it matter whether "intelligence" is couppled to organic or synthetic material?
I don't believe so and in that respect they are equal.

The way "creativity" can be used by an organic sentient versus synthetic sentient is for me the crux of the matter. The organic sentient can do that analogical and digital, the synthetic only digital.

Whether the analogical bit is important or not is thus the real question!

[Vicious]

Our ancestors survived by raping, stealing, murdering, and torturing everything including one another. That's not a legacy to be proud of. Then again, we aren't our ancestors, and deserve no credit nor reprimand for their actions. All we are is a parasite, degrading the value of this planet as rapidly as humanly possible.

nice misanthrope. if you aren't part of the solution you're part of the problem. quit being part of the problem you parasite.

classic BSN. i love you rotward.

[Rotward]

Vicious wrote...

Our ancestors survived by raping, stealing, murdering, and torturing everything including one another. That's not a legacy to be proud of. Then again, we aren't our ancestors, and deserve no credit nor reprimand for their actions. All we are is a parasite, degrading the value of this planet as rapidly as humanly possible.

nice misanthrope. if you aren't part of the solution you're part of the problem. quit being part of the problem you parasite.

classic BSN. i love you rotward.

I love you too 

[RatThing]

Yeah, the writers made it very obvious what kind of answer to this question they prefer. It goes so far that at some points you don't even have a choise than to treat them as alive. You can only tell Joker to stay friends with EDI, not that he's good enough for real people. You can not exclude EDI from your Citadel party (while I believe you can even exclude the VS). On Rannoch, first dialogue you can either tell the Geth "are better than this" (paragon) or ask Legion/GethVI to trust you (renegade, after you told it you want to destroy the Geth on the Normady --> ingenious writing). That's pretty questionable if you ask me. They basically bring up the question about what constitutes as life but won't let you act based on your own opinion. Well, it doesn't matter. Artificial things are not alive, and I rather skip content (not talking to EDI, not doing the Geth consensus mission) than treat them as such.

Modifié par RatThing, 06 décembre 2013 - 07:56 .

[AlanC9]

Vicious wrote...

loss of command inputs and control failsafes does not suddenly breathe life into steel.

What does breathe life into nonlife, whether metal or chemical?

[Display Name Owner]

Well it depends. In ME2 Legion fully acknowledges and even endorses the fact that Geth do not possess the traits that many would say makes organics 'alive'. Feeling, emotions, needs, all that. So whether you'd say the Geth are alive is subjective and I think ME2 does a nice job of leaving that to you to decide.

In 3, however, the Geth seem to take the position that they need to be exactly like everyone else to be 'complete'. They use Reaper tech to become individuals with feelings or whatever, which is apparently supposed to be superior to what they were before.

[Rotward]

AlanC9 wrote...

Vicious wrote...

loss of command inputs and control failsafes does not suddenly breathe life into steel.

What does breathe life into nonlife, whether metal or chemical?

Can it be a busty nurse? I'd like that. 

[Sir DeLoria]

Rotward wrote...
Our ancestors survived by raping, stealing, murdering, and torturing everything including one another. That's not a legacy to be proud of.

Wait, synthetics are different? Well, the Geth survived by nearly exterminating an entire species, butchering millions and committing cultural genocide. They killed far more people in a much shorter time period than any group of humans ever has.

Edit: actually, synthetics think at the speed of light, and humans think at less than the speed of sound. Thus, synthetics are superior in every way. 

Synthetics merely emulate life, they're not natural beings. Synthetics can not evolve in nature without being created by an advanced, sapient species. They lack emotions, desires, culture and any purpose(asside from serving their masters). Their logic and reason is based on pure and ice cold calculus, they don't feel a glimpse of pity, mercy or remorse. They're tools, not living beings. 

[Rotward]

Necanor wrote...

Wait, synthetics are different? Well, the Geth survived by nearly exterminating an entire species, butchering millions and committing cultural genocide. They killed far more people in a much shorter time period than any group of humans ever has.

• Geth don't rape or torture, and they kill in self defense.
• Humans are on offense at least 50% of the time. When we're on defense, it's historically from ourselves.
• Humans killed as many during WWII as were killed by the geth in the morning war, I think, but we don't have clear numbers on quarian casualties. I know humans have killed millions in a matter of years, and tens of thousands in an instant.
• Many of the quarians during the morning war were killed by other quarians. It was as much a civil war as a war against the Geth. 
• The geth never attempted genocide. They delibrately allowed the quarians to leave, as soon as the quarians stopped attacking. 

Edit: actually, synthetics think at the speed of light, and humans think at less than the speed of sound. Thus, synthetics are superior in every way. 

Synthetics merely emulate life, they're not natural beings. Synthetics can not evolve in nature without being created by an advanced, sapient species. They lack emotions, desires, culture and any purpose(asside from serving their masters). Their logic and reason is based on pure and ice cold calculus, they don't feel a glimpse of pity, mercy or remorse. They're tools, not living beings. 

I'm curious: why did you quote my edit there? I'm not sure how the two are related, except maybe your comment on lacking emotions. Edi, however, proves your statement to be factually incorrect. In mass effect, AI have emotions. 

Modifié par Rotward, 07 décembre 2013 - 12:58 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Rotward wrote...Edi, however, proves your statement to be factually incorrect. In mass effect, AI have emotions. [*]

When? That is contradictory to what Legion states in ME2. EDI may have programs allowing her to act as if she posessed something reminiscent of organic emotions, but she simply lacks the capacity to feel the same way an organic does. Now on the topic of the Geth:

[*]The Geth didn't exclusively kill in self-defense, to think that is utterly naïve and moronic. The Geth butchered almost 99% of the Quarian population(according to Tali in ME1). The vast majority of which wouldn't have been able to pose any threat whatsoever to the Geth(elderly, infants, children and general civilians). [*]Your hypothesis, that the Quarians led a "civil war" against themselves is ridiculous and grossly exaggerated. Geth VI mentions, that only a few Quarians directly opposed the war and there is only one report of a Quarian being killed by the military.[*]Yes, we don't know how high Quarian casualties were in the war, but it can be assumed, that the population would've been about 1-2 billion(max) and that the vast majority of that population was murdered. The second world war had a combined casualty rate of 72-78 million. [*]Wether or not the Geth intended to commit genocide is irrelevant, because either way they ended up doing it. 

Modifié par Necanor, 07 décembre 2013 - 01:18 .

[Massa FX]

Well, they certainly made sure players stood on 1 side of the fence when it came to synthetics rights and privileges before the ending of ME3. They wanted the "choices" to be easier... i suppose.

Was it easier for me? Nope! But I shoot the tube every time, regardless of EDI/Legion friendships.

[RandomGuy96]

Necanor wrote...

Rotward wrote...Edi, however, proves your statement to be factually incorrect. In mass effect, AI have emotions. [*]

When? That is contradictory to what Legion states in ME2. EDI may have programs allowing her to act as if she posessed something reminiscent of organic emotions, but she simply lacks the capacity to feel the same way an organic does. Now on the topic of the Geth:

[*]The Geth didn't exclusively kill in self-defense, to think that is utterly naïve and moronic. The Geth butchered almost 99% of the Quarian population(according to Tali in ME1). The vast majority of which wouldn't have been able to pose any threat whatsoever to the Geth(elderly, infants, children and general civilians). [*]Your hypothesis, that the Quarians led a "civil war" against themselves is ridiculous and grossly exaggerated. Geth VI mentions, that only a few Quarians directly opposed the war and there is only one report of a Quarian being killed by the military.[*]Yes, we don't know how high Quarian casualties were in the war, but it can be assumed, that the population would've been about 1-2 billion(max) and that the vast majority of that population was murdered. The second world war had a combined casualty rate of 72-78 million. [*]Wether or not the Geth intended to commit genocide is irrelevant, because either way they ended up doing it. 

[*]Mass Effect: Revelations mentions that less than one percent of quarians survived the Morning War, which lasted less than one year, and specifically referred to the geth's actions as genocide. Just to add on here, in case common sense and basic logic wasn't enough. It also mentions that "a few million survivors" was much less than one percent of the pre-war population, which matches what Tali said about the geth killing billions of quarians. So the geth's genocide is in no way comparable to any crime that has ever been done in human history. It's on a ridiculously larger scale. No group of humans in the history of our planet- not the Imperial Japanese, not the Communist Chinese, not the N. Germans- can claim to have committed crimes even comparable to a TENTH of what the geth did. Also note that the geth responsible for the most brutal non-Reaper genocide in the galaxy are still around today, and are all completely guilty. 

Modifié par RandomGuy96, 07 décembre 2013 - 02:43 .