187 réponses à ce sujet

[Rotward]

Necanor wrote...

When? That is contradictory to what Legion states in ME2. EDI may have programs allowing her to act as if she posessed something reminiscent of organic emotions, but she simply lacks the capacity to feel the same way an organic does. Now on the topic of the Geth:

When EDI displays emotion, preferences, and isn't a geth. She wouldn't request the crew approach the mobile platform to speak with her if EDI lacked preferences. It's far more efficient for them to talk to her from wherever they're situated.

I don't think the Geth exhibited emotion, though Legion had some preferences, like his(?) choice of n7 armor. They aren't individuals, though. Since Geth have to network to achieve sentience, they can't develop personal preferences, or cultures. If you let Legion upload the reaper code, this changes.

The Geth didn't exclusively kill in self-defense, to think that is utterly naïve and moronic. The Geth butchered almost 99% of the Quarian population(according to Tali in ME1). The vast majority of which wouldn't have been able to pose any threat whatsoever to the Geth(elderly, infants, children and general civilians).

 
As we see in me3, the quarians throw their noncombatants into combat. The geth never went onto the offensive, so they didn't hunt down civilians. Rather, civilians were mixed in with the military. The geth don't have children or elderly, anyway, so they wouldn't understand noncombatants.

To top all that off, the Quarians used geth as slaves, and were comitting genocide against them. They simply lost. Had the Batarians successfully enslaved all humans, then decided that humans were too much trouble, you wouldn't complain about batarian casualties. That's exactly what the quarian did to the geth.

Your hypothesis, that the Quarians led a "civil war" against themselves is ridiculous and grossly exaggerated. Geth VI mentions, that only a few Quarians directly opposed the war and there is only one report of a Quarian being killed by the military.

Legion mentions that a minority opposed the war, not that just three of four quarians did. A civil war is a civil war, it's fairly rare for one to be as evenly divided as the United States civil war. We only encounter one record in the consensus, gee, I guess we saw the entire war right there. Oh wait, that'd be a retarded conclusion. 

Yes, we don't know how high Quarian casualties were in the war, but it can be assumed, that the population would've been about 1-2 billion(max) and that the vast majority of that population was
murdered. The second world war had a combined casualty rate of 72-78 million.

Yup, if 17 million is about 1%, then a little less than 2 billion was their original population. You argued that the geth killed faster than humans ever have, you may be right, but I'm not sure. Considering the geth lacked ships, I'd bet that the morning war took decades. WWII took six years, roughly.

Wether or not the Geth intended to commit genocide is irrelevant, because either way they ended up doing it.

Actually, intent is the defining factor of genocide. Otherwise, it's just a war. Humans and Quarians both committed genocide, the Geth never did. 

Modifié par Rotward, 07 décembre 2013 - 04:48 .

[AlanC9]

Massa FX wrote...

Well, they certainly made sure players stood on 1 side of the fence when it came to synthetics rights and privileges before the ending of ME3. They wanted the "choices" to be easier... i suppose.

Was it easier for me? Nope! But I shoot the tube every time, regardless of EDI/Legion friendships.

I thought that was there to make the choices harder, not easier.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Rotward
A few things. The timestamps from the consensus tell us the Morning War started and ended in a single year, not "decades" (dialogue you only get with the Geth VI in Legion's place), and even the writers call what the Geth did to the Quarians a genocide (even if they took pains to never directly mention it in the Rannoch arc). A lot of geth apologists seem to want to put a rifle in the hands of every Quarian living back then solely to justify the act of killing them, but the books plainly state they never stood a chance. According to the Geth VI (who better reflects their mindset back then, and who in no way acknowledges the Quarians who stood up for the Geth), they deemed the entire Quarian species to be a threat, and acted to eliminate the "threat" until it ceased to be a threat.

------------------------------

From Mass Effect: Revelation (Drew Karpyshyn, 2007), Chapter Eight (emphasis mine):

Attempting to develop artificial intelligence was one of the few things specifically banned in the Citadel Conventions. Developing purely synthetic life, whether cloned or manufactured, was considered a crime against the entire galaxy.

Experts from nearly every species predicted that true artificial intelligence - such as a synthetic neural network with the ability to absorb and critically analyze knowledge - would grow exponentially the instant it learned to learn. It would teach itself; quickly surpassing the capabilities of its organic creators and growing beyond their control. Every single species in the galaxy relied on computers that were linked into the vast data network of the extranet for transport, trade, defense, and basic survival. If a rogue AI program was somehow able to access and influence those data networks, the results would be catastrophic.

Conventional theory held that the doomsday scenario wasn't merely possible, it was unavoidable. According to the Council, the emergence of an artificial intelligence was the single greatest threat to organic life in the galaxy. And there was evidence to support their position.

Three hundred years ago, long before humanity appeared on the galactic scene, the quarian species had created a race of synthetic servants to serve as an expandable and expendable labor source. The geth, as they were called, were not true AIs: their neural networks were developed in a way that was highly restrictive and self-limiting. Despite this precaution, the geth eventually turned on their quarian masters, validating all the dire warnings and predictions.

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile.

In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

Fleets from every species in Citadel space massed on the borders of the Veil as the Council prepared for a massive geth invasion. But the expected attack never came. Gradually the fleets were scaled back, until now, several centuries after the quarians were driven out, only a few patrols remained to monitor the region for signs of geth aggression.

However, the lesson of the quarians had not been forgotten. They had lost everything to the synthetic creatures they created... and on top of this, the geth were still less advanced than a true AI.

------------------------------

There's also a bulletin heard in the Spectre office after Thessia:

We've heard nonstop news about massacres on our homeworlds. But let's not forget that we've survived heavy losses before. Rachni consumed salarian colonies. Quarians lived through the unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War. Periods of ethnic cleansing have darkened the corners of human history. But we're a galaxy of survivors. Despite threats both organic and synthetic, we've endured.

------------------------------

In the modern war, for every twenty or so Quarians directly taking part in the fighting, you have several hundred huddled in their cubicles in the cargo holds of the ships they live in. Destroying a ship means killing all passengers on board. In the morning war, by contrast, they lived in cities - one would have to use WMDs (eg: chemical weapons) to kill everyone living in one of those unless they went door-to-door and shot every last man, woman, and child or simply laid siege and starved everyone. It's a completely different situation.

EDIT: Dividers added for legibility.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 05:46 .

[DeinonSlayer]

An interesting bit of dialogue:

Legion: "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth."

Shepard: "Similar actions?

Legion: "At Wadi-us-Salaam. Arlington. Rookwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevskoye. Auschwitz-Birkenau."

Shepard: "Those are cemetaries. Memorials."

Legion: "It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?"

Shepard: "The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on."

Legion: "The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them."

It is believed half a million people are interred at Wadi-us-Salaam each year. Piskarevkoye has 420,000 civilians and 50,000 soldiers buried in mass graves, with a plaque memorializing over 640,000 who starved to death in Leningrad in World War 2. We all know what happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Tyne Cot is a World War 1 cemetery, and King George the Fifth delivered an interesting speech there:

We can truly say that the whole circuit of the Earth is girdled with the graves of our dead. In the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon Earth through the years to come, than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war. —King George V, 11 May 1922

It seems to me the Geth didn't really understand what they were doing at the time. They didn't know when to stop (at least, I hope that's the case - the alternative is that they acted out of malice). If Legion makes it back to them, they have a better understanding of organics, and don't ultimately employ genocidal aggression in "self-defense." If he doesn't, the VI doesn't really give a damn that it would be killing innocents, and it isn't open to alternatives.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

An interesting bit of dialogue:

Legion: "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth."

Shepard: "Similar actions?

Legion: "At Wadi-us-Salaam. Arlington. Rookwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevskoye. Auschwitz-Birkenau."

Shepard: "Those are cemetaries. Memorials."

Legion: "It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?"

Shepard: "The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on."

Legion: "The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them."

It is believed half a million people are interred at Wadi-us-Salaam each year. Piskarevkoye has 420,000 civilians and 50,000 soldiers buried in mass graves, with a plaque memorializing over 640,000 who starved to death in Leningrad in World War 2. We all know what happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Tyne Cot is a World War 1 cemetery, and King George the Fifth delivered an interesting speech there:

We can truly say that the whole circuit of the Earth is girdled with the graves of our dead. In the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon Earth through the years to come, than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war. —King George V, 11 May 1922

It seems to me the Geth didn't really understand what they were doing at the time. They didn't know when to stop (at least, I hope that's the case - the alternative is that they acted out of malice). If Legion makes it back to them, they have a better understanding of organics, and don't ultimately employ genocidal aggression in "self-defense." If he doesn't, the VI doesn't really give a damn that it would be killing innocents, and it isn't open to alternatives.

Yet the dialogue except for one line is identical. "We knew not to trust organics." - if you choose to side with the Quarians. Otherwise the VI delivers the identical lines as Legion, and you get the illusion that if you play Gerrel and Tali right you'll get the peace option: "If the creators would stop firing on us we would blah blah blah," but you can't get Gerrel to stop firing in this case because the peace options are grayed out, placing no responsibility on the Geth. The writers set up a situation that was stacked in favor of that Geth. I can see how people playing the game the first time without Legion tried to make peace and failed got to see the Quarians die.

I see absolutely no reason to create anything beyond a virtual intelligence. There is no reason to create synthetic life.

[DeinonSlayer]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Yet the dialogue except for one line is identical. "We knew not to trust organics." - if you choose to side with the Quarians. Otherwise the VI delivers the identical lines as Legion, and you get the illusion that if you play Gerrel and Tali right you'll get the peace option: "If the creators would stop firing on us we would blah blah blah," but you can't get Gerrel to stop firing in this case because the peace options are grayed out, placing no responsibility on the Geth. The writers set up a situation that was stacked in favor of that Geth. I can see how people playing the game the first time without Legion tried to make peace and failed got to see the Quarians die.

I see absolutely no reason to create anything beyond a virtual intelligence. There is no reason to create synthetic life.

Actually, Legion says something to the effect of "We regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternative" before the final upload choice, whereas the Geth VI makes it plain that it intends to kill them off.

I just googled it:

Legion:
Before first upload choice, after Tali says uploading the code would mean the death of her people:
"Do you remember the question that started the Morning War, Tali'Zorah? 'Does this unit have a soul?'"

Before last upload choice:
"We regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternative. 40%"

Shepard's response if you stop Legion after he says that:
"I'm sorry, Legion. I can't let the Quarians die."

Geth VI:
Before first upload choice, after Tali says uploading the code would mean the death of her people:
"Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can support Shepard's fight against the Old Machines... if the creators no longer threaten us."

Before last upload choice:
"Your people began this war. We will end it. 40%."

Shepard's response if you stop the VI after it says that:
"Wrong answer. I was giving the geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide."

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 06:24 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Yet the dialogue except for one line is identical. "We knew not to trust organics." - if you choose to side with the Quarians. Otherwise the VI delivers the identical lines as Legion, and you get the illusion that if you play Gerrel and Tali right you'll get the peace option: "If the creators would stop firing on us we would blah blah blah," but you can't get Gerrel to stop firing in this case because the peace options are grayed out, placing no responsibility on the Geth. The writers set up a situation that was stacked in favor of that Geth. I can see how people playing the game the first time without Legion tried to make peace and failed got to see the Quarians die.

I see absolutely no reason to create anything beyond a virtual intelligence. There is no reason to create synthetic life.

Actually, Legion says something to the effect of "We regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternative" before the final upload choice, whereas the Geth VI makes it plain that it intends to kill them off.

I just googled it:

Legion:
Before first upload choice, after Tali says uploading the code would mean the death of her people:
"Do you remember the question that started the Morning War, Tali'Zorah? 'Does this unit have a soul?'"

Before last upload choice:
"We regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternative. 40%"

Shepard's response if you stop Legion after he says that:
"I'm sorry, Legion. I can't let the Quarians die."

Geth VI:
Before first upload choice, after Tali says uploading the code would mean the dath of her people:
"Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can support Shepard's fight against the Old Machines... if the creators no longer threaten us."

Before last upload choice:
"Your people began this war. We will end it. 40%."

Shepard's response if you stop the VI after it says that:
"Wrong answer. I was giving the geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide."

Thank you it's been about six months, and about 18 months since I saw Geth VI. I was going by memory. Now, do you see why "eye witnesses" are not considered 100% reliable? 

[DeinonSlayer]

Also just saw this in the same file:

"Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors."

I've never heard that line in-game, but I'd bet it happens in Koris' mission if you bring some specific squadmate to the surface with Tali (I haven't tried all squadmate combinations). Picture what that meant in the Morning War, if you will - any attempt by the Quarians to surrender would have been ignored. Even Geth sympathizers and noncombatants wouldn't be spared. That seems entirely consistent with the VI's outlook stated above.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 07:17 .

[Deathsaurer]

The Geth, which were basically children with guns, would have flattened major production centers to impair the war effort much like the Reapers do. Racking up a massive body count would be ridiculously easy.

Let's put this in a little context.

shipping ports
food production
water purification
supply stockpiles
energy production
arms/vehicle/equipment manufacturing
medical production

All likely leveled along with their support staff.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 07 décembre 2013 - 07:22 .

[Rotward]

@DeinonSlayer

Really, the geth managed to build a fleet and defeat the quarians in a single year, despite being unarmed, and without combat training at the start? That's just bad writing. I haven't actually run with the legion VI, so I didn't have the timestamps, though.

Nothing outside the games is cannon.

Genocide is defined by intent. Whether the writers like it or not, misuse of a word doesn't make it accurate. The geth did not attack the quarians, or pursue them once they retreated; the quarians attempted genocide on the geth - and lost miserably. As you might note, Hitler's actions were deemed genocide, despite his failure. Japanese internment camps, and the nukes dropped in japan, are not deemed genocide. The differentiating factor is intent.

Considering there was a gun in every Quarian's hand this time around, it seems likely that the same was true during the morning war.

Plus, the Quarians never offered surrender, nor accepted surrender from the geth. They attacked agricultural units, any unit that surrendered was terminated, and so forth. The geth had to either win or die, and I don't consider winning amoral. The quarians could have retreated far sooner, or sued for peace. They chose to die, instead, and that's no ones fault but their own.

[AlexMBrennan]

Really, the geth managed to build a fleet and defeat the quarians in a single year, despite being unarmed, and without combat training at the start? That's just bad writing. I haven't actually run with the legion VI, so I didn't have the timestamps, though.

The quarians used the geth to build ships, and as disposable infantry before they lost control of them.

[DeinonSlayer]

Rotward wrote...

@DeinonSlayer

Really, the geth managed to build a fleet and defeat the quarians in a single year, despite being unarmed, and without combat training at the start? That's just bad writing. I haven't actually run with the legion VI, so I didn't have the timestamps, though.

Legion implies heavy use of chemical weapons by the Geth. Going by nothing but what they choose to show you in their consensus, I'd agree it's bad writing - how does a faction go from having to hide out in civilian houses to survive to overrunning multiple star systems and killing damned near everyone in a single year?

It's noted in the Codex that the Geth were built as tools of labor and war, replacing organic soldiers on the battlefield. If half of the Quarians' military strength suddenly turned on them, I could easily see the 99% scenario taking place.

Nothing outside the games is cannon.

Drew Karpyshyn was the lead writer for ME1 and ME2. He wrote that book, and both games make frequent reference to its contents. It's stamped with the Bioware name. It's canon whether you like it or not. That blond woman from Jack's mission in ME3 was a main character in Mass Effect: Ascension.

If I recall, you can buy a copy from the cafe in Zakera Ward in ME2.

Genocide is defined by intent. Whether the writers like it or not, misuse of a word doesn't make it accurate. The geth did not attack the quarians, or pursue them once they retreated; the quarians attempted genocide on the geth - and lost miserably. *Godwin snip*

Semantics. It is what it is. Also, the Geth only held off at the last minute because they were unsure of the consequences (for them) of a total extermination. It would probably bring outside intervention down on their heads which they weren't yet ready to stave off.

Considering there was a gun in every Quarian's hand this time around, it seems likely that the same was true during the morning war.

Do you really have this much difficulty grasping the differences between fighting in space and on the ground? The vast, vast majority of the people in the Migrant Fleet are taking no part in combat operations. Ships designed for a crew of 80 are home to over 700 people. They're holed up in the cargo holds they call home with no idea what's happening beyond their hulls, waiting for this to end.

In space, they're carried into the fight whether they want to be there or not because leaving the fleet means they can't be fed by the liveships. On the ground, it's completely different - you can't get 99% of any given population to agree on the color of the sky, let alone take up arms and fight. That completely ignores those who simply can't fight - children, elderly, infirmed etc. who would make up far more than 1% of the population.

Plus, the Quarians never offered surrender, nor accepted surrender from the geth. They attacked agricultural units, any unit that surrendered was terminated, and so forth. The geth had to either win or die, and I don't consider winning amoral. The quarians could have retreated far sooner, or sued for peace. They chose to die, instead, and that's no ones fault but their own.

Did you not see what I wrote above? The Geth never accepted surrenders, per ME3 dialogue. They continued killing Quarians long after they lost the capacity to resist, as explicitly stated in the book. How is it OK for one side to do it and not the other? This was a conflict in which both sides were wrong - I've never understood this notion that the Geth should somehow be lauded because they couldn't make up their minds over whether to kill off the tattered, fleeing survivors fast enough to actually do so.

The Geth have a vested interest in gaining your sympathy, and show you what they want you to see in the consensus mission (agricultural units instead of militarized Geth units - we know both existed, they show you the more sympathetic ones). Just picture the poor bastard who was lounging around in his enlisted barracks and got the order to go down to the motor pool and unplug the nine-foot-tall Prime with an arm-mounted rotary cannon.




"Uhm... just walk up and throw the 'off' switch, right? Okay... good robot... nice robot..."

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Rotward]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Nothing outside the games is cannon.

Drew Karpyshyn was the lead writer for ME1 and ME2. He wrote that book, and both games make frequent reference to its contents. It's stamped with the Bioware name. It's canon whether you like it or not. That blond woman from Jack's mission in ME3 was a main character in Mass Effect: Ascension.

If I recall, you can buy a copy from the cafe in Zakera Ward in ME2.

Nothing outside the games is cannon because most of the fanbase won't have encountered it. As a result, such content is often retconned, and not worth considering. If you can get it in the game, though, fair enough.

Genocide is defined by intent. Whether the writers like it or not, misuse of a word doesn't make it accurate. The geth did not attack the quarians, or pursue them once they retreated; the quarians attempted genocide on the geth - and lost miserably. *Godwin snip*

Semantics. It is what it is. Also, the Geth only held off at the last minute because they were unsure of the consequences (for them) of a total extermination. It would probably bring outside intervention down on their heads which they weren't yet ready to stave off.

War is war. It's never the best option, but not all war is genocide. The different connotations are important, so misuse of the word matters. 

Considering there was a gun in every Quarian's hand this time around, it seems likely that the same was true during the morning war.

Do you really have this much difficulty grasping the differences between fighting in space and on the ground? The vast, vast majority of the people in the Migrant Fleet are taking no part in combat operations. Ships designed for a crew of 80 are home to over 700 people. They're holed up in the cargo holds they call home with no idea what's happening beyond their hulls, waiting for this to end.

In space, they're carried into the fight whether they want to be there or not because leaving the fleet means they can't be fed by the liveships. On the ground, it's completely different - you can't get 99% of any given population to agree on the color of the sky, let alone take up arms and fight. That completely ignores those who simply can't fight - children, elderly, infirmed etc.

They slapped guns on their civilian ships. It doesn't matter if the civilians were personally helping the war effort or not, the geth would have to fire on armed ships. 

In space, the civilian fleet could have stayed behind. The geth easily could have pursued the quarians during the 300 years that they've been apart, but never chose to. Thus, it's unlikely that the geth would go hunting for civilians beyond the relay. Yet, the Quarians chose to bring every ship in. That mentality is all it takes to arm civilians. Those that opposed the war were killed or incarcerated, remember. Under martial law, it's much easier to convince everyone. 

Plus, the Quarians never offered surrender, nor accepted surrender from the geth. They attacked agricultural units, any unit that surrendered was terminated, and so forth. The geth had to either win or die, and I don't consider winning amoral. The quarians could have retreated far sooner, or sued for peace. They chose to die, instead, and that's no ones fault but their own.

Did you not see what I wrote above? The Geth never accepted surrenders, per ME3 dialogue. They continued killing Quarians long after they lost the capacity to resist, as explicitly stated in the book. How is it OK for one side to do it and not the other? This was a conflict in which both sides were wrong - I've never understood this notion that the Geth should somehow be lauded because they couldn't make up their minds over whether to kill off the tattered, fleeing survivors fast enough to actually do so.

They didn't accept individual surrenders, no complete surrender was offered. The expectation is that, if the defeated quarians saw an opportunity, they would attack again. As legion said, "we did not seek hostilities with the creators, we fought for continued existance. When the creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100% of the time." The geth, on the other hand, held no animosity toward the quarians. They fought only when forced to. The quarians had no compelling reason to expect the geth would attack were they to accept surrender. 

The Geth have a vested interest in gaining your sympathy, and show you what they want you to see in the consensus mission (agricultural units instead of militarized Geth units - we know both existed, they show you the more sympathetic ones). Just picture the poor bastard who was lounging around in his enlisted barracks and got the order to go down to the motor pool and unplug the nine-foot-tall Prime with an arm-mounted rotary cannon.

The quarians were equally invested in gaining our sympathy, and only showed us what they wanted us to know. I feel for the poor bastard unplugging primes, but how is that the geth's fault? That's just another reason I dislike the quarians. 

What it boils down to, is that I don't care how the war was conducted. All's fair in war, especially one for survival, rather than resources. The quarians are entirely responsible for the war, and failed to learn anything.

Modifié par Rotward, 07 décembre 2013 - 08:24 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Rotward wrote...

Nothing outside the games is cannon because most of the fanbase won't have encountered it. As a result, such content is often retconned, and not worth considering. If you can get it in the game, though, fair enough.

ME1 elevator conversation: "The Geth killed billions and drove my people from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."

Plus the Thessia and Geth VI bits from above. It's canon. If you refuse to accept that, I can't force you to.

War is war. It's never the best option, but not all war is genocide. The different connotations are important, so misuse of the word matters.

*Hunted the Quarians to extinction on their homeworld, ignored all attempts to surrender and shunned all communications*
*Totally not genocide*

Sounds legit.

They slapped guns on their civilian ships. It doesn't matter if the civilians were personally helping the war effort or not, the geth would have to fire on armed ships. 

In space, the civilian fleet could have stayed behind. The geth easily could have pursued the quarians during the 300 years that they've been apart, but never chose to. Thus, it's unlikely that the geth would go hunting for civilians beyond the relay. Yet, the Quarians chose to bring every ship in. That mentality is all it takes to arm civilians. Those that opposed the war were killed or incarcerated, remember. Under martial law, it's much easier to convince everyone.

Xen in ME3: "Even Koris recognized the need for the civilian fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."

The military needs food, too. Even if you sent a single liveship in with them, that would mean dragging 1/3rd of the civilian fleet along into the fight to keep them fed, while leaving 2/3rds of the fleet behind completely without military protection in a galaxy crawling with Reapers.

Even with martial law, you can't achieve 99% armament, let alone willing and able fighters. Face it. You're struggling to put a gun in the hands of every Quarian in the morning war solely to justify the act of killing them. Is it so hard to believe that the entity which spends three centuries killing any organic to enter their space on sight would have no qualms about slaughtering civilians?

They didn't accept individual surrenders, no complete surrender was offered. The expectation is that, if the defeated quarians saw an opportunity, they would attack again. As legion said, "we did not seek hostilities with the creators, we fought for continued existance. When the creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100% of the time." The geth, on the other hand, held no animosity toward the quarians. They fought only when forced to. The quarians had no compelling reason to expect the geth would attack were they to accept surrender.

Not the case with the Geth VI, per Shepard's dialogue. And to be fair, given their past behavior, the Quarians have every reason to believe the Geth wouldn't spare them in the modern war, too. It's only if it's communicated to them that the Geth are willing to accept a cease-fire for the first time ever that they stand down. If the VI is present, the Quarians can only survive by destroying the Geth.

Also, re: surrender, how do you know the Quarians didn't try to? The writers left events in the war deliberately vague, but we're told the Geth "never learned to take survivors" and spent centuries ignoring all attempts made to communicate with them and killing emissaries on sight.

The quarians were equally invested in gaining our sympathy, and only showed us what they wanted us to know. I feel for the poor bastard unplugging primes, but how is that the geth's fault? That's just another reason I dislike the quarians.

What it boils down to, is that I don't care how the war was conducted. All's fair in war, especially one for survival, rather than resources. The quarians are entirely responsible for the war, and failed to learn anything.

If that's your opinion, I respect it - I don't see either of us changing the other's mind. This was not war, however. This was a successful extermination in response to an attempted one.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 08:52 .

[Steelcan]

who cares who is "morally right"?

The quarians are offering the largest fleet in the galaxy in exchange for killing off an enemy whose first response when sh!t hits the fan is to run to the reapers...

[Obadiah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They slapped guns on their civilian ships. It doesn't matter if the civilians were personally helping the war effort or not, the geth would have to fire on armed ships. 

In space, the civilian fleet could have stayed behind. The geth easily could have pursued the quarians during the 300 years that they've been apart, but never chose to. Thus, it's unlikely that the geth would go hunting for civilians beyond the relay. Yet, the Quarians chose to bring every ship in. That mentality is all it takes to arm civilians. Those that opposed the war were killed or incarcerated, remember. Under martial law, it's much easier to convince everyone.

Xen in ME3: "Even Koris recognized the need for the civilian fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."

The military needs food, too. Even if you sent a single liveship in with them, that would mean dragging 1/3rd of the civilian fleet along into the fight to keep them fed, while leaving 2/3rds of the fleet behind completely without military protection in a galaxy crawling with Reapers.

Even with martial law, you can't achieve 99% armament, let alone willing and able fighters. Face it. You're struggling to put a gun in the hands of every Quarian in the morning war solely to justify the act of killing them. Is it so hard to believe that the entity which spends three centuries killing any organic to enter their space on sight would have no qualms about slaughtering civilians?
...

He'd not struggling. You just described the Quarians arming all of their civilians, and putting them in conflict and thus making them legitimate targets. We all saw the Quarian purging dissent from their civilians in the memories. It doesn't take a great leap to realise that the Quarians never surrendered and attacked the Geth.

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 décembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They slapped guns on their civilian ships. It doesn't matter if the civilians were personally helping the war effort or not, the geth would have to fire on armed ships. 

In space, the civilian fleet could have stayed behind. The geth easily could have pursued the quarians during the 300 years that they've been apart, but never chose to. Thus, it's unlikely that the geth would go hunting for civilians beyond the relay. Yet, the Quarians chose to bring every ship in. That mentality is all it takes to arm civilians. Those that opposed the war were killed or incarcerated, remember. Under martial law, it's much easier to convince everyone.

Xen in ME3: "Even Koris recognized the need for the civilian fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."

The military needs food, too. Even if you sent a single liveship in with them, that would mean dragging 1/3rd of the civilian fleet along into the fight to keep them fed, while leaving 2/3rds of the fleet behind completely without military protection in a galaxy crawling with Reapers.

Even with martial law, you can't achieve 99% armament, let alone willing and able fighters. Face it. You're struggling to put a gun in the hands of every Quarian in the morning war solely to justify the act of killing them. Is it so hard to believe that the entity which spends three centuries killing any organic to enter their space on sight would have no qualms about slaughtering civilians?
...

He'd not struggling. You just described the Quarians arming all of their civilians, and putting them in conflict and thus making them legitimate targets.

He's using that as "evidence" of 99% of the Quarian populace being armed in the Morning War, fighting on the ground.

Given that we know that in the modern war "the civilian fleet does not want this war" (which is to say, the vast majority of the Quarian populace), take those same people, put them on the ground, and you aren't going to see 99% of them scrambling for a rifle.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:01 .

[Obadiah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They slapped guns on their civilian ships. It doesn't matter if the civilians were personally helping the war effort or not, the geth would have to fire on armed ships. 

In space, the civilian fleet could have stayed behind. The geth easily could have pursued the quarians during the 300 years that they've been apart, but never chose to. Thus, it's unlikely that the geth would go hunting for civilians beyond the relay. Yet, the Quarians chose to bring every ship in. That mentality is all it takes to arm civilians. Those that opposed the war were killed or incarcerated, remember. Under martial law, it's much easier to convince everyone.

Xen in ME3: "Even Koris recognized the need for the civilian fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."

The military needs food, too. Even if you sent a single liveship in with them, that would mean dragging 1/3rd of the civilian fleet along into the fight to keep them fed, while leaving 2/3rds of the fleet behind completely without military protection in a galaxy crawling with Reapers.

Even with martial law, you can't achieve 99% armament, let alone willing and able fighters. Face it. You're struggling to put a gun in the hands of every Quarian in the morning war solely to justify the act of killing them. Is it so hard to believe that the entity which spends three centuries killing any organic to enter their space on sight would have no qualms about slaughtering civilians?
...

He'd not struggling. You just described the Quarians arming all of their civilians, and putting them in conflict and thus making them legitimate targets.

He's using that as "evidence" of 99% of the Quarian populace being armed in the Morning War, fighting on the ground.

Given that we know that in the modern war "the civilian fleet does not want this war," take those same people, put them on the ground, and you aren't going to see 99% of them scrambling for a rifle.

He's using it as evidence that the Quarians will arm their civilians to mobilize against an enemy. Given the hard line we saw the Quarians take in memories against the Geth and their own people, it seems like a pretty legitimate piece of evidence, and is applicable. I'm not sure why you think the Quarian civilian population wouldn't have been mobilized in the Morning War.

You don't need a "rifle in hand" to be legitimate military target. You can just be in a civilian in the military support structure (ex: a munitions factory helping pump out weapons).

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:06 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Obadiah wrote...

He's using it as evidence that the Quarians will arm their civilians to mobilize against an enemy. Given the hard line we saw the Quarians take in memories against the Geth and their own people, it seems like a pretty legitimate piece of evidence, and is applicable. I'm not sure why you think the civilian population wouldn't have been mobilized in the Morning War.

99%?

99%?

You legitimately think they managed to muster and/or arm 99% of their population, from newborns to geriatrics, and that nobody at any point tried to surrender? Revelation explicitly says they had "neither the numbers nor the ability" to stand against the Geth. The post-Thessia bulletin describes what the Quarians experienced as a "slaughter," the book called it a "genocide." The Geth VI has zero qualms about killing them all, even knowing it would be killing its own sympathizers (it's quick to dismiss its sympathizers when seen in the Consensus), and we're told in (obscure) ME3 dialogue that the Geth never learned to take survivors. How hard is this to understand?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:11 .

[Steelcan]

Countries that have mandatory military service can expect about 30% of their population to be eligible for service.

Lets bump it up another 5% in either direction for age division to account for those who may be still fit for duty. That's 40% the majority are still going to be civilians, many of who will be too young to do anything.

[Obadiah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
99%?

99%?

You legitimately think they managed to muster and arm 99% of their population, from newborns to geriatrics? Revelation explicitly says they had "neither the numbers nor the ability" to stand against the Geth. The post-Thessia bulletin describes what the Quarians experienced as a "slaughter," the book called it a "genocide." How hard is this to understand?

I legitimately think the Quarians mobilized their enitire population to fight the Geth by an means necessary during the Morning War, which would make most of them, as in the War on Rannoch, legitimate targets. As the Quarian's military fell, their civilians would become more mobilized. What seems to be difficult for you to understand is how far leadership will go to win a conflict. They will absolutely do things like divert resource from the sick and elderly and allow them to die.

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:17 .

[Br3admax]

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
]99%?

99%?

You legitimately think they managed to muster and arm 99% of their population, from newborns to geriatrics? Revelation explicitly says they had "neither the numbers nor the ability" to stand against the Geth. The post-Thessia bulletin describes what the Quarians experienced as a "slaughter," the book called it a "genocide." How hard is this to understand?

I legitimately think the Quarians mobilized their enitire population to fight the Geth by an means necessary during the Morning War, which would make most of them, as in the War on Rannoch, legitimate targets. As the Quarian's military fell, their civilians would become more mobilized. What seems to be difficult for you to understand is how far leadership will go to win a conflict. They will absolutely do things like divert resource from the sick and elderly and allow them to die.

Like during WWII when we mobolized the Toddler Defense Force. Them Nazis never saw it coming. Wonder why it didn't work for the quarians. 

[DeinonSlayer]

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
]99%?

99%?

You legitimately think they managed to muster and arm 99% of their population, from newborns to geriatrics? Revelation explicitly says they had "neither the numbers nor the ability" to stand against the Geth. The post-Thessia bulletin describes what the Quarians experienced as a "slaughter," the book called it a "genocide." How hard is this to understand?

I legitimately think the Quarians mobilized their enitire population to fight the Geth by an means necessary during the Morning War, which would make most of them, as in the War on Rannoch, legitimate targets. As the Quarian's military fell, their civilians would become more mobilized. What seems to be difficult for you to understand is how far leadership will go to win a conflict. They will absolutely do things like divert resource from the sick and elderly and allow them to die, so resources can be moved to more useful areas.

If you insist on ignoring canon in direct contradiction to your assertion AND population dynamics, then there's no sense in me bashing my head aganst the wall trying to get through to you.

[Rotward]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

ME1 elevator conversation: "The Geth killed billions and drove my people from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."

Plus the Thessia and Geth VI bits from above. It's canon. If you refuse to accept that, I can't force you to.

Oh, I don't disbelieve that the geth killed billions, or anything like that. I just don't consider anything that's exclusive to a book cannon. Like I said, most people won't have read it.

Hunted the Quarians to extinction on their homeworld, ignored all attempts to surrender and shunned all communications
Totally not genocide

Sounds legit.

The definition of genocide presides on intent, or success. Without either, it's not genocide. If you refuse to accept the dictionary definition, I can't force you.

Xen in ME3: "Even Koris recognized the need for the civilian fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."

The military needs food, too. Even if you sent a single liveship in with them, that would mean dragging 1/3rd of the civilian fleet along into the fight to keep them fed, while leaving 2/3rds of the fleet behind completely without military protection in a galaxy crawling with Reapers.

Leaving them undefended is still less risky than bringing them into a war zone. 

Even with martial law, you can't achieve 99% armament, let alone willing and able fighters. Face it. You're struggling to put a gun in the hands of every Quarian in the morning war solely to justify the act of killing them. Is it so hard to believe that the entity which spends three centuries killing any organic to enter their space on sight would have no qualms about slaughtering civilians?

You misunderstand, I have no doubt that they killed civilians. In fact, I doubt that the geth understand what a civilian is, considering they have none. I just doubt that many civilians were twidling their thumbs. A Quarian contributing to the war effort is an enemy. Killing civilians was tactically advantegous.

If the VI is present, the Quarians can only survive by destroying the Geth.

Actually, they have the option of leaving the geth alone. The only way for them to retake the homeworld is to kill the geth. That's not their only option for surival. 

Also, re: surrender, how do you know the Quarians didn't try to? The writers left events in the war deliberately vague, but we're told the Geth "never learned to take survivors" and spent centuries ignoring all attempts made to communicate with them and killing emissaries on sight.

We know that the quarians have been at war, and under martial law, for 300 years. There's no guarentee, but it seems unlikely that they offered a total surrender, truce, or ceasefire of any kind. The Geth's only experience with organics is war, so why in the hell would they let an organic in their space. As far as blocked communications, that's isolationist, but understandable imo.