187 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Do explain, where can the quarians go that

A. Suits their dietary needs
B. Doesn't already have refugees
C. Isn't in the path of the Reapers

[DeinonSlayer]

@Rotward
Thank you for at least admitting that. I think the single most ridiculous assertion I ever saw was that the Quarians exterminated themselves by trampling each other to get to escape ships (and no, sadly, the poster was not being facetious about that).

What alternatives do the Quarians have to taking back Rannoch, though? Legion severed communication with them before the invasion for reasons unknown and the Geth have killed all emissaries sent before them, so peace talks are off the table. Their ships aren't available to aid the wider war effort against the Reapers so long as their holds are crowded with civilians. Feeding them all in this state requires that they stay together in a single massed fleet which is itself dependent on external infrastructure which is rapidly being destroyed (it takes days for said fleet to pass through a single relay, so they're vulnerable on that front as well). A single Reaper skewering a single liveship equates to 1/3rd of their remaining populace starving to death. They have to get their civilians on solid ground.

But where? They can't dump them on some airless moon and expect the species to survive long-term if the fleet never comes back for them - if, say, it's lost in the fighting before the Crucible is deployed. What Turian colony (let alone more than one) is both not under Reaper attack, and willing and able to take on millions of new mouths to feed with strict health requirements? I don't see them having any alternative to taking back Rannoch (the only planet in the galaxy where a suit breach won't kill, with symbiotic flora they depend on for immune system function). Rannoch is currently held by a faction which the entire galaxy (save a handful of people) view as isolationists hostile to all organic life (at best) or a Reaper proxy (at worst).

They were compelled by the Reaper invasion to do what they did as much as the Geth, in turn, were compelled to side with the Reapers (itself thanks to their having no friends due to killing anyone who ever tried to talk to them).

@Obadiah
I'm done talking to you. I've already explained why.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:36 .

[Obadiah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
]99%?

99%?

You legitimately think they managed to muster and arm 99% of their population, from newborns to geriatrics? Revelation explicitly says they had "neither the numbers nor the ability" to stand against the Geth. The post-Thessia bulletin describes what the Quarians experienced as a "slaughter," the book called it a "genocide." How hard is this to understand?

I legitimately think the Quarians mobilized their enitire population to fight the Geth by an means necessary during the Morning War, which would make most of them, as in the War on Rannoch, legitimate targets. As the Quarian's military fell, their civilians would become more mobilized. What seems to be difficult for you to understand is how far leadership will go to win a conflict. They will absolutely do things like divert resource from the sick and elderly and allow them to die, so resources can be moved to more useful areas.

If you insist on ignoring canon in direct contradiction to your assertion AND population dynamics, then there's no sense in me bashing my head aganst the wall trying to get through to you.

I'm not ignoring cannon. You're extrapolating it to fit a particular retelling of the story.

Of course all the sources we have call the Geth attack on the Quarians a Genocide, most of the Quarians died by an enemy of the Council (AI). What else are they going to call it? Any time one side loses to an enemy badly they will describe it in terms to bring sympathy to their side (slaughter, Genocide, etc...). Its called propaganda.

The Quarians started a war with the Geth, and they lost... badly. That doesn't mean the Geth used chemical weapons, or gunned down infants and the sick.

That should not blind anyone to what actions and behavior the Geth or Quarians are capable of.

[AlexMBrennan]

Do explain, where can the quarians go that

A. Suits their dietary needs
B. Doesn't already have refugees
C. Isn't in the path of the Reapers

They have a fleet which is MOBILE, and they have been fine for centuries with food produced on their live ships - why did they need to restart their war with the geth in the middle of a Reaper invasion?

[David7204]

The quarians had a weapon that could and almost did eliminate the geth with no losses or casualties whatsoever.

They have every reason to believe the geth are hostile to organics. The entire galaxy has every reason to believe so. The only voice otherwise is Tali and Legion. Tali is hearsay and Legion has every reason to lie.

If the Reapers are on the verge of attacking, eliminating one of their most powerful weapons and assets is just about the smartest thing you can do. If Legion never existed and the geth actually were evil, and the quarians did nothing when they had an opportunity to destory the geth, everyone would be shrieking how stupid they are for not attacking when they had the chance.

Modifié par David7204, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:52 .

[DeinonSlayer]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Do explain, where can the quarians go that

A. Suits their dietary needs
B. Doesn't already have refugees
C. Isn't in the path of the Reapers

They have a fleet which is MOBILE, and they have been fine for centuries with food produced on their live ships - why did they need to restart their war with the geth in the middle of a Reaper invasion?

They have a fleet which is unable to contribute to the war effort in any way so long as it's crowded with civilians, which is dependent on external infrastructure even at the best of times for basic survival (said infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed), and the Reapers need only cordon off the relay in whatever system they happen to be in to ensure they are left with no escape (as they have their Geth thralls do in ME3).

Koris' stated alternative to war in ME3 was to do exactly what you suggest: drift for as long as they can, and trust to luck that the Reapers won't find them. Which is to say, he had no viable alternatives to offer. Be it on a planet or in space, nowhere is safe in a Reaper invasion, but Gerrel and Xen's efforts are what made their fleet available as a war asset.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:54 .

[David7204]

When this argument comes up, people seem to forget that important point every time. The quarians did not 'go to war' with the geth. They were eliminating them with no trouble and no losses with Xen's weapon.

[Deathsaurer]

And they were stupid for not realizing the Reapers would exploit the situation.

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

And they were stupid for not realizing the Reapers would exploit the situation.

Even the heretics never had the Reaper code upgrades. It was an unforseen development.

Even with the advantage of Xen's countermeasure the invasion was a gamble, yet it was far less risky than simply drifting and hoping the Reapers would leave them alone.

[David7204]

Let's see. You can attack the geth and risk the Reapers making the geth stronger, (assuming of course the quarians are somehow experts on the Reapers despite encountering a total of zero and are able to confidently predict this kind of thing). Or you can sit and do nothing and guarantee it. Not only that, guarantee the geth will be at full strength instead of at least wounded.

There's stupid logic here, all right.

Modifié par David7204, 07 décembre 2013 - 10:03 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

The quarians had a weapon that could and almost did eliminate the geth with no losses or casualties whatsoever.

They have every reason to believe the geth are hostile to organics. The entire galaxy has every reason to believe so. The only voice otherwise is Tali and Legion. Tali is hearsay and Legion has every reason to lie.

If the Reapers are on the verge of attacking, eliminating one of their most powerful weapons and assets is just about the smartest thing you can do. If Legion never existed and the geth actually were evil, and the quarians did nothing when they had an opportunity to destory the geth, everyone would be shrieking how stupid they are for not attacking when they had the chance.

Congratulations people, David is on the side of reason

think about that

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

Let's see. You can attack the geth and risk the Reapers making the geth stronger, assuming of course the quarians are somehow experts on the Reapers despite encountering a total of zero. Or you can sit and do nothing and guarantee it. Not only that, guarantee the geth will be at full strength instead of at least wounded.

There's stupid logic here, all right.

I agree. 

[Deathsaurer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Even the heretics never had the Reaper code upgrades. It was an unforseen development.

It isn't at all unforseen that the Reapers would fix the fatal flaw in the Geth in exchange for servitude. That's their MO. They probably sat there thinking man these silly Quarians are making this too easy for us. Thinking the Reapers wouldn't do such a thing is absurd.

[Steelcan]

Deathsaurer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Even the heretics never had the Reaper code upgrades. It was an unforseen development.

It isn't at all unforseen that the Reapers would fix the fatal flaw in the Geth in exchange for servitude. That's their MO. They probably sat there thinking man these silly Quarians are making this too easy for us. Thinking the Reapers wouldn't do such a thing is absurd.

I know the Quarians my be reminiscnet of the gypsies but I don't think they even pretened to tell the future

Modifié par Steelcan, 07 décembre 2013 - 10:09 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Even the heretics never had the Reaper code upgrades. It was an unforseen development.

It isn't at all unforseen that the Reapers would fix the fatal flaw in the Geth in exchange for servitude. That's their MO. They probably sat there thinking man these silly Quarians are making this too easy for us. Thinking the Reapers wouldn't do such a thing is absurd.

Better then that they paralyze themselves with the assumption that the Reapers have a Xanatos gambit ready for any possible course of action they could take, eh?

"If you wait to take action until you are certain of the enemy's strength, position, and intentions, you will never act."

You have yet to provide any kind of alternative to invading Rannoch.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Br3admax]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Even the heretics never had the Reaper code upgrades. It was an unforseen development.

It isn't at all unforseen that the Reapers would fix the fatal flaw in the Geth in exchange for servitude. That's their MO. They probably sat there thinking man these silly Quarians are making this too easy for us. Thinking the Reapers wouldn't do such a thing is absurd.

Better then that they paralyze themselves with the assumption that the Reapers have a Xanatos gambit ready for any possible course of action they could take, eh?

You have yet to provide any kind of alternative to invading Rannoch.

Die out? 

[Deathsaurer]

Steelcan wrote...

I know the Quarians my be reminiscnet of the gypsies but I don't think they even pretened to tell the future

Who else are the Geth going to turn to if the Quarians are winning? Sovereign already offered them an upgrade, a Reaper body, in exchange for servitude. It's really really easy to see what is going to happen here. Takes 0 psychic ability.

DeinonSlayer wrote...

]Better then that they paralyze themselves with the assumption that the Reapers have a Xanatos gambit ready for any possible course of action they could take, eh?

What Xanatos gambit? It's a very obvious repeat of what Sovereign already did.

You have yet to provide any kind of alternative to invading Rannoch.

Here's a shocking idea, listen to Tali and Koris instead of dragging your people into a war they don't want. Let's not act like there aren't Quarians that want to try peace.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 07 décembre 2013 - 10:22 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

]Better then that they paralyze themselves with the assumption that the Reapers have a Xanatos gambit ready for any possible course of action they could take, eh?

What Xanatos gambit? It's a very obvious repeat of what Sovereign already did.

Because the heretics totally had Reaper code which boosted their intellect to the point where Xen's countermeasure would have been ineffective (How exactly does boosting their intellect compensate for blinded sensors? I don't think that was ever explained).

Deathsaurer wrote...

You have yet to provide any kind of alternative to invading Rannoch.

Here's a shocking idea, listen to Tali and Koris instead of dragging your people into a war they don't want. Let's not act like there aren't Quarians that want to try peace.

Koris had no answer, though. Legion severed communications before the Quarian invasion. The Geth have left the negotiating table. There's no Turian colony that can take them in, and no convenient ready-to-settle Dextro world to slough them off on. Koris' alternative (which he says out loud if you choose certain dialogue options before the dreadnought mission) is to drift in space, in a state where they are utterly incapable of aiding the war effort on account of their cargo holds being full of civilians and a single Reaper showing up and taking potshots at the liveships would be the death of them all.

Maybe if the Geth hadn't spent the last three centuries solidifying their reputation as the single most xenophobic race in the MEU, they'd have allies short of the Reapers to go calling on.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 10:31 .

[Deathsaurer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Because the heretics totally had Reaper code which boosted their intellect to the point where Xen's countermeasure would have been ineffective (How exactly does boosting their intellect compensate for blinded sensors? I don't think that was ever explained).

Yes or no, the Reapers are significatly more advanced AI
Yes or no, Xen's toy is completely useless on them
Yes or no, they have a history of offering the Geth new toys for servitude

Just because Sovereign didn't bother at the time doesn't mean they won't do it now for a free army. This is what the Reapers do, they turn the races of a cycle against each other to their benefit. If you assume the Geth are already allied with them then attacking them is stupid because the Reapers will upgrade them until you can't win, if you assume they aren't allied with them attacking them is stupid because you need them as allies.

Koris had no answer, though.

Because his push for peace got ignored and they got dragged into a war.

Legion severed communications before the Quarian invasion. The Geth have left the negotiating table.

Because Legion isn't stupid and could tell several of the Admirals didn't want peace.

There's no Turian colony that can take them in, and no convenient ready-to-settle Dextro world to slough them off on. Koris' alternative (which he says out loud if you choose certain dialogue options before the dreadnought mission) is to drift in space, in a state where they are utterly incapable of aiding the war effort on account of their cargo holds being full of civilians and a single Reaper showing up and taking potshots at the liveships would be the death of them all.

I'm not suggesting they were in a good place. I simply don't see how starting a war that will obviously become a proxy war with the Reapers is in their best interest. If Han'Gerrel and Xen weren't such nutjobs it never would have come to this.

Maybe if the Geth hadn't spent the last three centuries solidifying their reputation as the single most xenophobic race in the MEU, they'd have allies short of the Reapers to go calling on.

Maybe if the Quarians hadn't freaked and assumed the Geth would revolt they wouldn't have ended up that way. If you always assume the worst in people all you're ever going to find is conflict.

[Obadiah]

Deathsaurer wrote...
...

You have yet to provide any kind of alternative to invading Rannoch.

Here's a shocking idea, listen to Tali and Koris instead of dragging your people into a war they don't want. Let's not act like there aren't Quarians that want to try peace.

Quarians commit themselves in an act of aggression that almost gets them wiped out. Shocking.

Here are some thoughts on other courses of actions the Quarians could take:

• Present Council with anti-Geth weapon design so they can decide on its use since the alternative puts their civilians at risk. Also, since we know of the Heretics intra-solar stations is it foolish to believe they will be able to destroy all Geth, and will need to prepare for counter offensive.
• Build and colonize a trading space station (similar to Omega)
• Colonize a moon

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 décembre 2013 - 11:03 .

[Deathsaurer]

You can't blame all the Quarians for what Han'Gerrel and Xen started. This was their war. You can point at them and laugh at how stupid they were all day long if you want but blaming the civilians is a line too far.

[Steelcan]

Deathsaurer you need to work on your argument, you are wildly speculating way beyond the bounds implied by canon material.

Nobody had any clue that the geth would get Reaper upgrades, and nobody had any clue what said upgrades might be.

There are valid arguments for the pro-geth side of the argument but you aren't making any of them. Everything you've said has been with the benefit of hindsight. Please make an actual argument based on in universe ddata that the characaters could reasonably be expected to know.

[Steelcan]

Obadiah wrote...

Quarians commits themselves in an act of aggression that almost gets them wiped out. Shocking.

Here are some thoughts on other courses of actions the Quarians could take:

• Present Council with anti-Geth weapon design so they can decide on its use since the alternative puts their civilians at risk. Also, since we know of the Heretics intra-solar stations is it foolish to believe they will be able to destroy all Geth, and will need to prepare for counter offensive.
• Build and colonize a trading space station (similar to Omega)
• Colonize a moon

Council is too busy getting its ass handed to it to bother with the geth

while the reapers are running galavant around the galaxy?  Really?

Same as above

[Obadiah]

Steelcan wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Quarians commits themselves in an act of aggression that almost gets them wiped out. Shocking.

Here are some thoughts on other courses of actions the Quarians could take:

• Present Council with anti-Geth weapon design so they can decide on its use since the alternative puts their civilians at risk. Also, since we know of the Heretics intra-solar stations is it foolish to believe they will be able to destroy all Geth, and will need to prepare for counter offensive.
• Build and colonize a trading space station (similar to Omega)
• Colonize a moon

Council is too busy getting its ass handed to it to bother with the geth

while the reapers are running galavant around the galaxy?  Really?

Same as above

The other 2 could have been done at some point in the last 300 years, and can be done after the war.

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 décembre 2013 - 11:05 .

[Deathsaurer]

You're going to tell me no one considered the Reapers trying to recruit the Geth again?