187 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Because the heretics totally had Reaper code which boosted their intellect to the point where Xen's countermeasure would have been ineffective (How exactly does boosting their intellect compensate for blinded sensors? I don't think that was ever explained).

Yes or no, the Reapers are significatly more advanced AI
Yes or no, Xen's toy is completely useless on them
Yes or no, they have a history of offering the Geth new toys for servitude

Just because Sovereign didn't bother at the time doesn't mean they won't do it now for a free army. This is what the Reapers do, they turn the races of a cycle against each other to their benefit. If you assume the Geth are already allied with them then attacking them is stupid because the Reapers will upgrade them until you can't win, if you assume they aren't allied with them attacking them is stupid because you need them as allies.

And if the same logic had been applied to the Collectors? Just leave them be, I'm sure something horrible will happen if we try to fight them - they're associated with the Reapers, after all.

Koris had no answer, though.

Because his push for peace got ignored and they got dragged into a war.

What grounds is there for the Quarians to trust them? There isn't a single Quarian alive who had a hand in the Morning War (that doesn't stop people from holding the current generation responsible for things that happened centuries before they were born of course), but this is the same three-century-old gestalt entity that exterminated their ancestors, then sat on its ass for two years after the Heretics ripped the Citadel a new one without so much as sending out a message denying involvement. People always talk about how little the Geth could be expected to trust the Quarians, but that door swings both ways.

Legion severed communications before the Quarian invasion. The Geth have left the negotiating table.

Because Legion isn't stupid and could tell several of the Admirals didn't want peace.

The Geth didn't want it either. They were content to remain isolated. The reason Legion stopped responding is never explicitly stated, but Tali speculates before the dreadnought mission that it's because Legion was trying to resist the Reaper takeover.

There's no Turian colony that can take them in, and no convenient ready-to-settle Dextro world to slough them off on. Koris' alternative (which he says out loud if you choose certain dialogue options before the dreadnought mission) is to drift in space, in a state where they are utterly incapable of aiding the war effort on account of their cargo holds being full of civilians and a single Reaper showing up and taking potshots at the liveships would be the death of them all.

I'm not suggesting they were in a good place. I simply don't see how starting a war that will obviously become a proxy war with the Reapers is in their best interest. If Han'Gerrel and Xen weren't such nutjobs it never would have come to this.

What is in their best interest, then? I've yet to see anyone explain what other options they had after Legion stopped answering (besides pulling a habitable Dextro world ready for settlement out of their ass, or "You have reached the Citadel Council - please hold").

Maybe if the Geth hadn't spent the last three centuries solidifying their reputation as the single most xenophobic race in the MEU, they'd have allies short of the Reapers to go calling on.

Maybe if the Quarians hadn't freaked and assumed the Geth would revolt they wouldn't have ended up that way. If you always assume the worst in people all you're ever going to find is conflict.

I'm sure the ambassadors who tried and died attempting communication with the Geth had hearts aflutter with similar idealism.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 11:17 .

[Steelcan]

Obadiah wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Quarians commits themselves in an act of aggression that almost gets them wiped out. Shocking.

Here are some thoughts on other courses of actions the Quarians could take:

• Present Council with anti-Geth weapon design so they can decide on its use since the alternative puts their civilians at risk. Also, since we know of the Heretics intra-solar stations is it foolish to believe they will be able to destroy all Geth, and will need to prepare for counter offensive.
• Build and colonize a trading space station (similar to Omega)
• Colonize a moon

Council is too busy getting its ass handed to it to bother with the geth

while the reapers are running galavant around the galaxy?  Really?

Same as above

The other 2 could have been done at some point in the last 300 years, and can be done after the war.

quarians have dietary restrictions and physiological symbiosis with Rannoch's ecology, they'd need to evolve that out which would be a very very very slow process and ungodly expensive.

So they'd either need to make an artificial planet which they don't have the resources for, or they'd need to take over an already colonized turian world for themselves...

[Steelcan]

Deathsaurer wrote...

You're going to tell me no one considered the Reapers trying to recruit the Geth again?

You're trying to say that the quarians should have predicted the upgrades that the geth recieved

[Deathsaurer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

]And if the same logic had been applied to the Collectors?

If the Collectors had a giant honking fleet it would have been valid. Shepard got insanely lucky they only had a few ships and only 1 present. Imagine if there had been a dozen cruisers docked when they got there. Lots of blowing up in your face in short order.

What grounds is there for the Quarians to trust them?

What have they got to lose exactly? If they'd actually tried serious negotiation and the Geth rejected it openly I'd support the principal of attacking them though not while the Reapers are around.

There isn't a single Quarian alive who had a hand in the Morning War (that doesn't people from holding the current generation responsible for things that happened centuries before they were born of course), but this is the same three-century-old gestalt entity that exterminated their ancestors, then sat on its ass for two years after the Heretics ripped the Citadel a new one without so much as sending out a message denying involvement. People always talk about how little the Geth could be expected to trust the Quarians, but that door swings both ways.

And I think this is a mistake on the Geth's part. A big one.

The Geth didn't want it either.

They clearly did but didn't know how to go about it. They instantly welcomed their creators back to Rannoch after the war ended and helped them rebuild.

They were content to remain isolated.

For lack of a better option sure, and again I think this was a mistake. Everyone needed to work together.

The reason Legion stopped responding is never explicitly stated, but Tali speculates before the dreadnought mission that it's because Legion was trying to resist the Reaper takeover.

That didn't happen until the Quarians attacked and I can't imagine them talking during the war. If that's the reason he stopped then the whole thing is even more tragic.

What is in their best interest, then? I've yet to see anyone explain what other options they had after Legion stopped answering.

Perhaps I haven't made my stance clear. I believe it was a mistake to let it get to that point. Once the fighting started arguing over what is the best course of action is moot. They should have been listening to Tali before that.

I'm sure the ambassadors who tried and died attempting communication with the Geth had hearts aflutter with similar idealism.

It's a bit late at that point isn't it? The Quarians already tried to kill them because they assumed the Geth would revolt. The damage to their development is already done and we'll never know what they might have become without the unprovoked hostility thrown at them.

[Deathsaurer]

Steelcan wrote...

You're trying to say that the quarians should have predicted the upgrades that the geth recieved

Perhaps not those particular upgrades but they should have expected the Reapers would render Xen's weapon useless if they got involved. The extra processing power wasn't actually required to turn the tide of the war. I kinda feel that was tacked on so the Geth could become real people. A simple jamming frequence that blocked the transmission of the junk data would have sufficed.

[Steelcan]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

You're trying to say that the quarians should have predicted the upgrades that the geth recieved

Perhaps not those particular upgrades but they should have expected the Reapers would render Xen's weapon useless if they got involved. The extra processing power wasn't actually required to turn the tide of the war. I kinda feel that was tacked on so the Geth could become real people. A simple jamming frequence that blocked the transmission of the junk data would have sufficed.

The quarians probably thought that they'd win before the geth could find a way around it

[Deathsaurer]

Maybe but I find that insanely reckless. I find assume the worse, hope for the best to be the best philosophy in combat.

[Steelcan]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Maybe but I find that insanely reckless. I find assume the worse, hope for the best to be the best philosophy in combat.

Given their situation they don't have a lot of options.

And the very real threat of reapers attacking them in space greatly outweighs what the geth might do

Modifié par Steelcan, 07 décembre 2013 - 11:34 .

[DeinonSlayer]

[quote]Deathsaurer wrote...

[quote]DeinonSlayer wrote...

And if the same logic had been applied to the Collectors?[/quote]
If the Collectors had a giant honking fleet it would have been valid. Shepard got insanely lucky they only had a few ships and only 1 present. Imagine if there had been a dozen cruisers docked when they got there. Lots of blowing up in your face in short order.[/quote]I view the Quarians going up against the Geth with nothing but Xen's countermeasure as being more akin to Shepard going up against the seekers on Horizon with nothing but Mordin's countermeasure.

[quote][quote]What grounds is there for the Quarians to trust them?[/quote]What have they got to lose exactly? If they'd actually tried serious negotiation and the Geth rejected it openly I'd support the principal of attacking them though not while the Reapers are around.[/quote]Would you settle your entire noncombatant population on a world under the watchful eye of an entity which already exterminated them once before, or clear the skies? Both sides see the other in this fashion. Both have good reason to.

[quote][quote]The Geth didn't want it either.[/quote]They clearly did but didn't know how to go about it. They instantly welcomed their creators back to Rannoch after the war ended and helped them rebuild.[/quote]Indeed. The Quarians, too, seem to have lost all desire to fight the Geth once they got their world back. I agree the conflict was unnecessary, but I still see it as having been unavoidable thanks to the conditions going into it.

[quote][quote]The reason Legion stopped responding is never explicitly stated, but Tali speculates before the dreadnought mission that it's because Legion was trying to resist the Reaper takeover.[/quote]That didn't happen until the Quarians attacked and I can't imagine them talking during the war. If that's the reason he stopped then the whole thing is even more tragic.[/quote]Legion severed contact before the Quarians attacked, but I otherwise agree.

[quote][quote]What is in their best interest, then? I've yet to see anyone explain what other options they had after Legion stopped answering.[/quote]Perhaps I haven't made my stance clear. I believe it was a mistake to let it get to that point. Once the fighting started arguing over what is the best course of action is moot. They should have been listening to Tali before that.[/quote]I think it was a series of mistakes by both sides, with external factors (like the Council's law banning AI) having a big influence. Once Legion cut them off, though, I don't see them having any alternatives.

[quote][quote]I'm sure the ambassadors who tried and died attempting communication with the Geth had hearts aflutter with similar idealism.[/quote]It's a bit late at that point isn't it? The Quarians already tried to kill them because they assumed the Geth would revolt. The damage to their development is already done and we'll never know what they might have become without the unprovoked hostility thrown at them.[/quote]They had three centuries to try to change things. They could have pinged the Council or the Quarians over the extranet at no risk to themselves at any point in that period, but they didn't - before Legion made it back to them (as the VI makes clear), they were disinterested in doing so.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 décembre 2013 - 11:41 .

[Deathsaurer]

Honestly I think the Quarians would have been better off without Xen's weapon. If it wasn't a lopsided fight the Geth would have had no reason to turn to the Reapers and might actually consider negotiation. The mistake was making it so lopsided they made it certain the Geth would side with the Reapers. The Geth obviously aren't just going to let themselves be slaughtered.

[Steelcan]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Honestly I think the Quarians would have been better off without Xen's weapon. If it wasn't a lopsided fight the Geth would have had no reason to turn to the Reapers and might actually consider negotiation. The mistake was making it so lopsided they made it certain the Geth would side with the Reapers. The Geth obviously aren't just going to let themselves be slaughtered.

No

The only mistake was not attacking sooner, we don't know how long they had the weapon before they attacked but they probably had at least a couple weeks of debate

[General TSAR]

Always mutates into Quarians vs. Toasters.

Always.