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[Toasted Llama]

In Exile wrote...

That makes them a thousand times more dangerous than the Blight. Non-darkspawn have never defeated the darkspawn in a military fight. The only hope so far was killing an archdemon which breaks a horde apart as they run underground to find another archdemon. It's a pathetic holding pattern. 

Awakened darkspawn control darkspawn. They think for themselves. If they wanted to start war of conquest, well, just look at what happened during the First Blight before the GWs. Only this time, the GWs would be powerless to stop and endless horde of organized darskpawn that could also use military tactics.

Yet they exist and I have yet to see them raise a darkspawn army and fight Thedas... I'll have to disagree here solely on the fact that this is a matter of whether or not Awakened darkspawn will continue to fight against the people of Thedas or not.

As much as there is a possibility that they will just mean doom and death, there is also the same chance that there is an Awakened darkspawn (or a couple more) that don't.

Everything the darkspawn did under the architect was evil. The only exception we've seen is the Messenger, who if you allow to live kills some people to save other people on time  in one epiloge. But the Architect kidnaps people and experiments on them without their consent. The darkspawn enjoy tricking people into murdering each otherl. They sack keeps, and are clealry ordered to sack keeps. The arguing going "What, sack Vigil? Me? Never!" doesn't prove anything other than the facat that the Architect is a bald-faced liar. If somehow the Keep was the darkspawn acting on their own, then it proves they're wholly incapable of anything other than violent slaughter. 

Like I said, you have to start somewhere. The Architect's ways are brutal, but so are Blights. I'd rather make brutal sacrifices (that have a purpose) now than have to endure even more blights with senseless slaughter.

This is so short sighted it would be funny if it didn't doom everything in Thedas to a slow and poisoned death. A "blight" is just a large army of darkspawn that masses on the surface and poisons the land. Right now, "blights" exist when an archdemon wakes up and is pissed. Not having archdemons doesn't end blights. If the awakened wanted to have the seat of  darkspawn empire in Orlais, that would be a blight. 

As long as there are old gods, the darkspawn will keep searching for them. Somehow I have a doubt that awakened darkspawn could rally an army as big as an archdemon would be able to.

Besides the fact, ofcourse, that a benevolent Awakened being could provide crucial information and research.

But I guess we'll just have to disagree. I'll stick to my point that, if there are darkspawn willingly to co-exist with the people of Thedas and also willingly to make sacrifices and provide help for that, I think that the people of Thedas should be able to put their hatred aside (despite being well-deserved) as it might mean a definite end to darkspawn.

[Thresh the Qunari]

sure

[Angrywolves]

Llama said:

"But I guess we'll just have to disagree. I'll stick to my point that, if there are darkspawn willingly to co-exist with the people of Thedas and also willingly to make sacrifices and provide help for that, I think that the people of Thedas should be able to put their hatred aside (despite being well-deserved) as it might mean a definite end to darkspawn."

No way thedas will ever accept the darkspawn with a bygones be bygones acceptance.It simply won't ever happen.

[Battlebloodmage]

Angrywolves wrote...

Llama said:

"But I guess we'll just have to disagree. I'll stick to my point that, if there are darkspawn willingly to co-exist with the people of Thedas and also willingly to make sacrifices and provide help for that, I think that the people of Thedas should be able to put their hatred aside (despite being well-deserved) as it might mean a definite end to darkspawn."

No way thedas will ever accept the darkspawn with a bygones be bygones acceptance.It simply won't ever happen.

Bioware have already done that with the Reapers in Synthesis and Geth. Reapers is basically the space Darkspawn.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 25 décembre 2013 - 10:55 .

[Vortex13]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Llama said:

"But I guess we'll just have to disagree. I'll stick to my point that, if there are darkspawn willingly to co-exist with the people of Thedas and also willingly to make sacrifices and provide help for that, I think that the people of Thedas should be able to put their hatred aside (despite being well-deserved) as it might mean a definite end to darkspawn."

No way thedas will ever accept the darkspawn with a bygones be bygones acceptance.It simply won't ever happen.

Bioware have already done that with the Reapers in Synthesis and Geth. Reapers is basically the space Darkspawn.

What's funny though is that the Architect's plan (essentially Fantasy Synthesis) is viewed as abhorrent and something to be stopped at all costs (by the protagonists) in the Calling, but the exact same; grand sweeping, all encompassing, regardless of personal acceptance; scenario is treated as a good thing in ME (if you watch the ending anyways).

[Angrywolves]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Llama said:

"But I guess we'll just have to disagree. I'll stick to my point that, if there are darkspawn willingly to co-exist with the people of Thedas and also willingly to make sacrifices and provide help for that, I think that the people of Thedas should be able to put their hatred aside (despite being well-deserved) as it might mean a definite end to darkspawn."

No way thedas will ever accept the darkspawn with a bygones be bygones acceptance.It simply won't ever happen.

Bioware have already done that with the Reapers in Synthesis and Geth. Reapers is basically the space Darkspawn.

ME team and lead writer Mac Walters. DA team and lead writer David Gaider. Hopefully they're not the same...<_<

[Toasted Llama]

Vortex13 wrote...

What's funny though is that the Architect's plan (essentially Fantasy Synthesis) is viewed as abhorrent and something to be stopped at all costs (by the protagonists) in the Calling, but the exact same; grand sweeping, all encompassing, regardless of personal acceptance; scenario is treated as a good thing in ME (if you watch the ending anyways).

What's even more funny is that people prefer mindless slaughter and unnecessary deaths over this Fantasy Synthesis.

[Toasted Llama]

Angrywolves wrote...

No way thedas will ever accept the darkspawn with a bygones be bygones acceptance.It simply won't ever happen.

And this attitude is why the blights just show up at Thedas' door every couple of hundred of years or so.

[Angrywolves]

Toasted Llama wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

No way thedas will ever accept the darkspawn with a bygones be bygones acceptance.It simply won't ever happen.

And this attitude is why the blights just show up at Thedas' door every couple of hundred of years or so.

The blights show up because the darkspawn exist.The darkspawn exist because some one polluted the Golden City.

shrugs.<_<

[Cyberbobmkii]

Toasted Llama wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

What's funny though is that the Architect's plan (essentially Fantasy Synthesis) is viewed as abhorrent and something to be stopped at all costs (by the protagonists) in the Calling, but the exact same; grand sweeping, all encompassing, regardless of personal acceptance; scenario is treated as a good thing in ME (if you watch the ending anyways).

What's even more funny is that people prefer mindless slaughter and unnecessary deaths over this Fantasy Synthesis.

Considering that the Architect's "Fantasy Synthesis" would kill off more than 90% of Thedas's population, I don't how it is more perferable option.

[Toasted Llama]

Angrywolves wrote...

The blights show up because the darkspawn exist.The darkspawn exist because some one polluted the Golden City.

shrugs.<_<

Yet apparently when people are given an option to get rid of the blights forever when it requires co-operation with darkspawn, people prefer to have Blights instead.

I'd say that they're just asking for it. Saying the risks are to great isn't a good point either, what could possibly be worse than a Blight?

Cyberbobmkii wrote...

Considering that the Architect's
"Fantasy Synthesis" would kill off more than 90% of Thedas's population,
I don't how it is more perferable option.

Except that if a Blight succeeds, the death rate will be 100%. And of course, nothing comes without a price lol

"But Blights have never succeeded before!"

Well, yes, except that it almost wiped out entire Ferelden because of politics.

[O_OotherSide]

Alright, I'll turn you and everyone you love into a decaying corpse. Also, you can't have kids with your now horrific looking wife, but only with that freaky looking fat monster. OR maybe your wife will become a huge fat monster and you can still have kids! But hey! No blights. You just had to give up on your old life and identity

Or, we can turn all these horrific looking dead bodies into sentient beings and hope that they don't try and murder us with their much bigger numbers, and taint that murders people just by being near them. I mean there was one that was a pretty okay guy out of the 100 or so I murdered. We'll probably be alright

Modifié par O_OotherSide, 26 décembre 2013 - 12:26 .

[Angrywolves]

Toasted Llama wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

The blights show up because the darkspawn exist.The darkspawn exist because some one polluted the Golden City.

shrugs.<_<

Yet apparently when people are given an option to get rid of the blights forever when it requires co-operation with darkspawn, people prefer to have Blights instead.

I'd say that they're just asking for it. Saying the risks are to great isn't a good point either, what could possibly be worse than a Blight?

Cyberbobmkii wrote...

Considering that the Architect's
"Fantasy Synthesis" would kill off more than 90% of Thedas's population,
I don't how it is more perferable option.

Except that if a Blight succeeds, the death rate will be 100%. And of course, nothing comes without a price lol

"But Blights have never succeeded before!"

Well, yes, except that it almost wiped out entire Ferelden because of politics.

You're assuming cooperation with rthe darkspawn would get rid of the blights and make the darkspawn no longer a threat.
That's a big presumption that is just that, a presumption.

Oh, intelligert darkspawn COULD be a much bigger threat.
Imagine if they figured out how to make their own golems,
Imagine if they stopped fighting each other, which they do when there aren't blights and decided to wage a constant war against the other races.

Your ASSUMPTIONS could be the case, COULD work out as you say they would, but there's no proof they will and things COULD be much worse as I have pointed out.

[Toasted Llama]

O_OotherSide wrote...

Alright, I'll turn you and everyone you love into a decaying corpse. Also, you can't have kids with your now horrific looking wife, but only with that freaky looking fat monster. OR maybe your wife will become a huge fat monster and you can still have kids! But hey! No blights. You just had to give up on your old life and identity

Or, we can turn all these horrific looking dead bodies into sentient beings and hope that they don't try and murder us with their much bigger numbers, and taint that murders people just by being near them. I mean there was one that was a pretty okay guy out of the 100 or so I murdered. We'll probably be alright

Well... if I were to have a wife I couldn't have kids anyway, being a darkspawn or no lol and well, they said darkspawn hybrids, not actual darkspawn. Who knows what they might be capable of and look like and who knows what might be "pretty" and what might be ugly. ("Honey, does this amputated arm make my bacterial infested nose look fat?") Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all

And I never said we should turn them all into sentient beings, I only said that one benevolent sentient one could provide us with vital information that might aid us ending blights forever. (Where we don't need the Architect's way. Never said that was the best way anyway)

Your sarcasm did crack me up though, +1 for you.

[Angrywolves]

who decided who get to be intelligent or that it can be limited by the player ?
Most likely the architect would cause it and the effects would be unlimited as far as the darkspawn are concerned.

[Toasted Llama]

Angrywolves wrote...

You're assuming cooperation with rthe darkspawn would get rid of the blights and make the darkspawn no longer a threat.
That's a big presumption that is just that, a presumption.

Oh, intelligert darkspawn COULD be a much bigger threat.
Imagine if they figured out how to make their own golems,
Imagine if they stopped fighting each other, which they do when there aren't blights and decided to wage a constant war against the other races.

Your ASSUMPTIONS could be the case, COULD work out as you say they would, but there's no proof they will and things COULD be much worse as I have pointed out.

Yes it could. It's worth TESTING anyway. Especially if the amount of darkspawn Thedas co-operate with are a limited number that can easily be disposed of if they would turn against us. What are the other options? Enduring senseless slaughter over and over again and hope the darkspawn don't find a way to counter the Grey Wardens?

Either way, whether Bioware thinks this concept could work or not is in their hands. Like I said, I like to believe that one or a small amount of benevolent sentient darkspawn could provide interesting information and help. They have decided in the past that drinking darkspawn blood apparently was a good decision to counter darkspawn as well. (And considering anything getting in touch with the taint has turned into darkspawn, it was a big assumption as well)

[In Exile]

Toasted Llama wrote...
Yet they exist and I have yet to see them raise a darkspawn army and fight Thedas... I'll have to disagree here solely on the fact that this is a matter of whether or not Awakened darkspawn will continue to fight against the people of Thedas or not.

Did you somehow miss DA:A? The whole plot of the game is about an insane brood mother - who is one of the Awakened - who raises an army to fight all of Thedas. The Architect isn't any better. His own army raises Vigil's keep, and neither explanation for it is good; it's either (i) he tells them not to kill everything, but the darkspawn do anyway; or (ii) he tells them to kill everything and the darkspawn are only happy to do it. 
 

As much as there is a possibility that they will just mean doom and death, there is also the same chance that there is an Awakened darkspawn (or a couple more) that don't.

No, there isn't. The absolute overwhelming evidence from DA:A is that the Awakened will kill, rape and taint the land because they find it fun. 

Like I said, you have to start somewhere. The Architect's ways are brutal, but so are Blights. I'd rather make brutal sacrifices (that have a purpose) now than have to endure even more blights with senseless slaughter.

The "brutal sacrifices" have the purpose of being a senselesss slaughter of non-darkspawn, with the end result being the senseless slaughter of all non-darkspawn. Seriously, the only reason to ever believe that somehow the Awakened wouldn't kill everything is because the Architect promised really nice he wouldn't, and it's actively contradicted by all the in-game evidence that shows that the darkspawn are going to do exactly that.

As long as there are old gods, the darkspawn will keep searching for them. Somehow I have a doubt that awakened darkspawn could rally an army as big as an archdemon would be able to.

Vigil's keep says otherwise. Amaranthine says otherwise. It took one insane brood mother to overrune one of the richest and most fortitufied parts of Ferelden. It was a massacre on the same scale as the Fifth Blight. 

So you can have doubts, but those doubts are actively contradicted by the facts.

Besides the fact, ofcourse, that a benevolent Awakened being could provide crucial information and research.

Beside the fact that this is almost pure fantasy - since we've never seen an Awakened even come close to having the capacity to research anything - all the Awakened we've seen get off on killing and violence. There is a single - single - character who apparently doesn't: The Messenger. And it's nonsensical to use it as an exampe of how darkspawn are something other than crazed rape abominations. No one is pointing to Vaughn as an example of how all humans can be insane rapists. .

But I guess we'll just have to disagree. I'll stick to my point that, if there are darkspawn willingly to co-exist with the people of Thedas and also willingly to make sacrifices and provide help for that, I think that the people of Thedas should be able to put their hatred aside (despite being well-deserved) as it might mean a definite end to darkspawn. 

When you say co-exist, are you aware that what you're really talking about is having all non-darkspawn willing surrender their land to be poisoned and allow an endless stream of women to be raped and mutated for the sake of a cold war-type piece that could be shattered at any moment by an ageless army of borderline immortal rape abominations? 

Oh! And let's not forget the blood farms that the darkspawn would need to keep of GWs so that they can create more awakened. But hey, if you find an endless stream of women to be raped and mutated and an endless stream of people to be bled like cattle to creaete more Awakened darkspawn, more power to you. 

[Toasted Llama]

Angrywolves wrote...

who decided who get to be intelligent or that it can be limited by the player ?
Most likely the architect would cause it and the effects would be unlimited as far as the darkspawn are concerned.

Well, if you've played Awakening you would know that darkspawn are intelligent because of Grey Warden blood. If the already inteligent darkspawn are aware of this, they can easily create more intelligent darkspawn, without the help of the architect.

So the question isn't who is intelligent and who isn't, the question is, are there benevolent darkspawn and are they truly benevolent?

[Angrywolves]

Not worth testing Llama.
I have to agree with Exile.

I think this benevolence you mention is just a fiction.

Modifié par Angrywolves, 26 décembre 2013 - 12:47 .

[In Exile]

Toasted Llama wrote...
Yes it could. It's worth TESTING anyway. Especially if the amount of darkspawn Thedas co-operate with are a limited number that can easily be disposed of if they would turn against us. What are the other options? Enduring senseless slaughter over and over again and hope the darkspawn don't find a way to counter the Grey Wardens?

There's no "testing". There's an empire of Awakened darkspawn that could wipe out all existence, or there's an endless stream of horrible unthinking rape abominations that could wipe out all existence. The darkspawn are an incredible existential threat, and there's no "winning" option. Everything leads to a state of eternal war, and eventual massacres. The only choices we have are about what makes those massacres less bad. 

And the bolded point just gets ridiculous. You know who can't come up with ways to counter GWs? Barely sentient wild animals. But your plan, apparenetly, is to make these things capable of thought and research, and then somehow... they won't come up with counter-measures to the greatest military threat to their existence, i.e., the GWs? 

Either way, whether Bioware thinks this concept could work or not is in their hands. Like I said, I like to believe that one or a small amount of benevolent sentient darkspawn could provide interesting information and help. They have decided in the past that drinking darkspawn blood apparently was a good decision to counter darkspawn as well. (And considering anything getting in touch with the taint has turned into darkspawn, it was a big assumption as well) 

You're wrong. Getting tainted doesn't turn you into darkspawn. A ghoul isn't a darkspawn, and GWs don't become darkspawn, they become ghouls (according to DG). 

[Toasted Llama]

In Exile wrote...

Did you somehow miss DA:A? The whole plot of the game is about an insane brood mother - who is one of the Awakened - who raises an army to fight all of Thedas. The Architect isn't any better. His own army raises Vigil's keep, and neither explanation for it is good; it's either (i) he tells them not to kill everything, but the darkspawn do anyway; or (ii) he tells them to kill everything and the darkspawn are only happy to do it. 

Didn't miss it, but we're on the third game now, couple of years later (as in, at least a decade later). Still no sign of an awakend darkspawn repeating the actions of that insane broodmother.

No, there isn't. The absolute overwhelming evidence from DA:A is that the Awakened will kill, rape and taint the land because they find it fun. 

Yet there's the Messenger. Explain him, besides saying "oh he's just an exception!"  because then there could be more exceptions anyway.

The "brutal sacrifices" have the purpose of being a senselesss slaughter of non-darkspawn, with the end result being the senseless slaughter of all non-darkspawn. Seriously, the only reason to ever believe that somehow the Awakened wouldn't kill everything is because the Architect promised really nice he wouldn't, and it's actively contradicted by all the in-game evidence that shows that the darkspawn are going to do exactly that.

Well they are taking their sweet ass time to do it... So before or after demons overrun the place and then become an event every so many years?

Vigil's keep says otherwise. Amaranthine says otherwise. It took one insane brood mother to overrune one of the richest and most fortitufied parts of Ferelden. It was a massacre on the same scale as the Fifth Blight.

So you can have doubts, but those doubts are actively contradicted by the facts.

Well, duhh. Throwing regular soldiers at darkspawn
has proven to be very ineffective anyway. Also might want to add that
entire Ferelden was still recovering from... Uhh... Oh I don't know... A blight maybe?

Beside the fact that this is almost pure fantasy - since we've never seen an Awakened even come close to having the capacity to research anything - all the Awakened we've seen get off on killing and violence. There is a single - single - character who apparently doesn't: The Messenger. And it's nonsensical to use it as an exampe of how darkspawn are something other than crazed rape abominations. No one is pointing to Vaughn as an example of how all humans can be insane rapists. .

Again, I am not saying that one benevolent darkspawn means that every single darkspawn can be benevolent. I am saying that there might be other exceptions like him. Vaughn may not mean that every human is an insane rapist, but it certainly means that there are a rare few of them. Or do you really honestly think that Vaughn is the only insane rapist in all Thedas?

When you say co-exist, are you aware that what you're really talking about is having all non-darkspawn willing surrender their land to be poisoned and allow an endless stream of women to be raped and mutated for the sake of a cold war-type piece that could be shattered at any moment by an ageless army of borderline immortal rape abominations? 

Oh! And let's not forget the blood farms that the darkspawn would need to keep of GWs so that they can create more awakened. But hey, if you find an endless stream of women to be raped and mutated and an endless stream of people to be bled like cattle to creaete more Awakened darkspawn, more power to you. 

That is assuming that darkspawn cannot change or be altered in one way or another. If that were the truth then I say nuke em.

Again; if and only IF there are benevolent darkspawn (again, not all darkspawn) and then another IF and only IF they can be altered in some way, then I'd consider it could be a way of permanently getting rid of the blight as well as serve as a companion. Which is the main point anyway.

So far Bioware hasn't provided solid reasons why these conditions cannot be met. They haven't given a reason or said that the Messenger is a one time only case and altering darkspawn is apparently possible to the point of giving them conscience and intelligence, but so far there have been no signs of this being the limit.  I'd gladly accept it if they could give a reason or simply say "the messenger was a one time only case and darkspawn cannot be altered", though.
Are these conditions not met then I want to see them served on a silver platter as much as you do.

[Toasted Llama]

In Exile wrote...

There's no "testing". There's an empire of Awakened darkspawn that could wipe out all existence, or there's an endless stream of horrible unthinking rape abominations that could wipe out all existence. The darkspawn are an incredible existential threat, and there's no "winning" option. Everything leads to a state of eternal war, and eventual massacres. The only choices we have are about what makes those massacres less bad. 

And the bolded point just gets ridiculous. You know who can't come up with ways to counter GWs? Barely sentient wild animals. But your plan, apparenetly, is to make these things capable of thought and research, and then somehow... they won't come up with counter-measures to the greatest military threat to their existence, i.e., the GWs?

There could be testing if there a benevolent awakened darkspawn.

... There is a big chance there are Awakened darkspawn anyway, whether the Architect is alive or not. If they are as evil as you say, they are most likely capable of finding a way to counter Grey Wardens. And Grey Wardens are only their greatest military threat because they can definitely kill an archdemon. With the awakened leading the darkspawn instead of the archdemon, this is basically useless.

You're wrong. Getting tainted doesn't turn you into darkspawn. A ghoul isn't a darkspawn, and GWs don't become darkspawn, they become ghouls (according to DG).

Oh well that makes it so much better! *ahem* Especially because ghouls can become broodmothers if things turn out really bad.

[Toasted Llama]

Angrywolves wrote...
I think this benevolence you mention is just a fiction.

The Messenger says hi.

[Vortex13]

Well Darkspawn are a hotly debated subject, but I am interested in the other half of the OP's question. Now everyone's first response when they think demon companion is to think of someone like Justice, Anders, or Cole, but IMO that is so limited/boring; what about something like a Sylvan, a demon possessed tree?

I tend to favor the decidedly non-human characters in fantasy/sci-fi settings and I would be very interested in seeing the character interaction between a creature who has only known the Fade, and the slow, patient nature of a tree, for example.

Also a Sylvan would have smaller moral issues, then another possessed corpse, or person IMO. A tree is not sentient and only barely registers a measure of sapience (relatively speaking) so there would be no dilemma in some force defiling a person's body, or overwriting a person's personality.

Granted most Sylvan were rage demon possessed, but the Grand Oak throws a monkey wrench into the notion that all Sylvans everywhere are forever going to be at odds with the player, and their allies.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

One idea I hit on was having a Mage companion w/ Summon Shades as an ability, but not without consequence; the Shades attack anything in their sight (your enemies, your party, you). And no, they do not offer XP. And an evolution for it could get around this consequence, but would cost more mana to expend.