33 réponses à ce sujet

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

As I'm rebuilding "Last of the Danaan", I'm trying to decide whether or not to include traps as part of some of the scripted ambushes.

Traps certainly make sense in the context of the story and game world, but I wonder if they add much to gameplay for the player, or whether they're just an annoyance.  In practice, it seems that traps are often included so that the player's party has some need of a rogue-type character, and the colorful personality that comes with it. 

But with this module, the PC is mostly on their own.  I want the player to have to make hard choices about how they build their character, whether to spend a skill point on hide, appraise, or in this case, search/disable trap/set trap.  Items with skill bonuses could offset some of those hard skill point choices, but I wonder how many skills I can make useful/necessary before players feel like they just can't put together a viable character.

I'll probably include the occaisonal trap just to keep things interesting, but how do people feel about extensive trap use?  Are heavily-trapped dungeons fun to pick through?  Do your PC's actually use traps themselves?  Can you imagine a 'Master Trapper' build that would be fun to play?

(For those of you unfamiliar with LotD, it's mostly a bunch of open exterior areas, and the plot includes a bunch of big, set-piece battles with many creatures on both sides.  Traps in the module wouldn't really be the normal trapped corridor or booby-trapped container, but rather little minefields in a field, scattered traps along a forest path, or even snares set for wildlife.)

[andysks]

For me traps are essential to D&D, and cRPG games like BG NWN and so on. I love to search the rooms for these red spots, and love to have a rogue in my party to disable them, cursing him if he fails. However, I never set traps myself. Never ever.

In the case of the LotD, the minefield thing is a really nice idea, and would like to see it. Haven't played the first version, but is in my list. If the traps don't exist there, and you only think of putting them in the new version, I say go for it .

To elaborate on the placing traps thing, I remember some walkthroughs on BG2 were saying that traps could make a dragon fight so much easier, if not kill him on their own. But I just never saw myself as playing traps. If a class specific for trap manipulation, like the "Master Trapper" was included, maybe I would give it a try, yes. But that would have to be a custom class, and not just a rogue who likes playing with traps. Hope I was helpful.

Andy.

[ColorsFade]

I generally hate traps.

Mostly because they are frequently placed in areas that make no sense to me. Why trap a corridor in a dungeon if you, the evil overlord, and your minions, are going to be frequently walking that corridor? It just defies logic.

I remember playing the first Baldur's Gate and being so thrilled at how awesome the game was, right up until the final encounter. The boss guy runs into that room, you follow, and you're mowed down by traps. The room is nothing but traps! It just defied logic to me. Throw more bad guys at me; throw more spells at me, but don't throw me in a trapped room with a bunch of baddies! It's just annoying.

I like trapped chests, or traps where they make sense: i.e. in a place in a dungeon where the evil overlord is trying to secure something for safekeeping, and has no intentions of going in there, or having his minions go in there. There's some context there and the whole thing makes sense. It's like Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark. That first dungeon he's in has no inhabitants; it's just traps. That works. It makes sense.

I could see the same thing with snares set for animal trappings, or secret entries warded against intrusion, or any of a number of things that make some kind of logical sense.

But most of the time, it seems devs trap floors just to trap them. As you say, just to make sure the party has a rogue in it. And to me, that's the dumbest reason to throw down a trap. If you're creating traps just to ensure a rogue is in a party, you've failed somehow.

The other thing is, NWN2 engine allows for only a really simple type of trap, which to me is not nearly as interesting as an encounter.

Imagine walking down a corridor and setting off a "trap". This trap consists of Grease firing, centered on your party, to hinder your movement, and then out of a couple recesses in the walls, some enemies emerge with ranged weapons to shoot at you. Grease is going to slow you down, so you can either flip to your own ranged weapons, or attempt to dispel it, or throw some disposable bombs at them, etc. Much more interesting, to me, than a spike trap going off.

And you can still give the PC a chance to avoid the trap by laying down a trigger. Run some code to do a "spot" check and if they pass, you destroy the trap. You could even use a quick cut-scene dialog to let the user know they just avoided a trap...

Anyway... that's my thoughts on the matter. In my mod I'm only trapping chests. In dungeons, I would rather setup "trap" encounters as described above.

[andysks]

Forgot to mention as well that a trap should have some meaning there. For example on a thug hideout I made, the doors leading to the vault, as well as some corridor that leads to some stolen stuff are trapped. Not just a trap to be there.
But Colors covered this pretty well .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Thanks for the feedback. Looking at the script functions, I think I can add special scripts to traps placed in-game. Grease is a good example of a trap that can affect the flow of a battle without doing a whole lot of direct damage, but there's all sort of effects that could be dealt out with traps - blindness, deafness, slow, stun, fear, or poison. With the right scripting, they could also call over guards or hungry spiders.

For the 'Master Trapper' build, I was trying to think about a character with high trap skills, who could easily recover enemy traps and then re-set them. Imagine you're tasking with sneaking into an enemy camp to gather some info. On your way in, you set some traps along your escape route. If you're detected, you can run away through your traps and lure your pursuers right into them. Or maybe you want to take out a whole platoon squad-by-squad. You sneak and watch the troops milling about, three squads in three separated positions. You sneak in and block off two of the squads with traps, and then attack the third. The first two squads come running, but are decimated/blinded/immobilized by the traps. You finish off the first squad, and then slink away, repeating the process again for the other two.

How do people feel able the mechanic of disabling/running into traps? Is it tedious to go through them one by one, or is the die-roll tension exciting for you? Is it frustrating to walk around with detect mode always on, or do you enjoy weighing the risk before charging into an unknown area?

[rjshae]

To me, traps by themselves are usually a little dull. What I like to add are detectable traps in an encounter area. They add an interesting tactical element, spicing up an otherwise mundane battle.

[Tchos]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...
How do people feel able the mechanic of disabling/running into traps? Is it tedious to go through them one by one, or is the die-roll tension exciting for you? Is it frustrating to walk around with detect mode always on, or do you enjoy weighing the risk before charging into an unknown area?

To me, it's not tedious.  I always include a rogue or some other class that can disable traps, and when I have a high-perception elf of any class, search mode is always on no matter what, so it's easy to detect them.  Personally, I like the chance of recovering a trap kit from the trap, giving me a little extra loot.  It's best when the traps also give a little XP for disarming them.

[Arkalezth]

For me, disabling traps is boring and makes gameplay slower. I don't have a problem with them being added (if they make sense, as aforementioned), as they add an extra challenge, but I generally dislike modules that give XP for it, since I prefer to just run over them with a character who has evasion.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 07 décembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[kamal_]

Tchos wrote...

Personally, I like the chance of recovering a trap kit from the trap, giving me a little extra loot.  It's best when the traps also give a little XP for disarming them.

Trying to recover a trap is a stock game action, it's just not the default action for interacting with a trap. Right click on the trap for it, recovering, examining etc are options. Recovering increases the DC by 10.

[Tchos]

I know, and that's what I like about traps. If I have a capable enough disarmer, I always opt to recover the trap. As for the XP, I prefer when use of character skill is rewarded for getting around an obstacle.

[Arkalezth]

That's one way to look at it. You could also say that the reward of disabling it is safety, or even the trap itself if you manage to recover it (I also find setting traps hardly worth it in practice, BTW). A fighter doesn't get XP for fighting, nor a cleric for healing (the reward in this case may be the fact that you're spending less coin on potions and healing kits).

I like having the option of disabling it or walking over it and accept the consequences (which can be devastating sometimes), but I don't like an option giving extra XP. With XP, it's a lose/lose situation in my mind: you either slow down the game, or not get some XP.

I don't have this problem in Dragon Age, though. Traps can generally be detected easily by rogues, and they give some XP, but when you disable then, it's instant, so you don't have to wait 5 seconds every time.

Tchos wrote...

... when I have a high-perception elf of any class, search mode is always on no matter what, so it's easy to detect them.

It depends on the trap. Unless it's a weak trap, you'll need a rogue level to detect it, no matter how high your search skill is, and sometimes you detect them too late when running, even with an elf.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 07 décembre 2013 - 12:13 .

[Tchos]

True, I think most of the times I've detected a trap without intending to, it was when my party had just finished a fight and I was just moving around a small area, picking up loot piles before seeing what was in the boss chest, and while I was busy with that, someone detected the trap -- I don't know if it was the rogue out of search mode, or the elf in search mode.

Also, I very, very rarely set traps. Usually I just sell the trap kits.

[kevL]

a guy in NwN MP showed me how to set traps:

he went stealth and laid down about five of them in a row, then pulled the golem with an arrow


golem dropped somewhere along the way.

[Arkalezth]

Sure, but sometimes it's faster and just about as easy to hack everything to pieces with a fighter, or whatever.

BTW, my post above refers mostly to single player modules. I don't mind getting a bit more or less XP in a PW where I can grind indefinitely and choose my encounters, but in a module with plot fights, I like having about the same experience regardless of how I approach to traps.

[Dann-J]

ColorsFade wrote...

I generally hate traps.

Mostly because they are frequently placed in areas that make no sense to me. Why trap a corridor in a dungeon if you, the evil overlord, and your minions, are going to be frequently walking that corridor? It just defies logic. 

That's certainly true of traps that span the entire width of the corridor, but I can see the utility of placing traps that leave enough room to one side to bypass them. That way even if you don't have someone in the party to disable them, anyone with a decent search skill (or a cleric casting Detect Traps) can make them known so you can avoid them.

You could even place them consistently on specific patterns in the floor tiles, or always locate them in the centre of corridors, so that if players learn to associate certainly locations with the possibility of traps, they can play it safe and move around those locations even if they can't detect the actual traps.

I've always marveled at how long traps can remain viable in ancient ruins. Everything else is crumbling around them, but somehow the most intricate of traps are as fresh as the day they were laid! I tend to avoid putting traps in ancient ruins for that reason - unless they're being used by a cult or bandits as a lair, or creatures like kobolds have made themselves at home there, so the traps are a recent addition.

You can also give traps a custom faction that allows them to damage any creature that passes through them. That way players can stand their ground and lure monsters over the traps with ranged attacks, using the traps to their own advantage.

Modifié par DannJ, 08 décembre 2013 - 10:22 .

[Tchos]

Someone pointed out somewhere (wish I could remember who) how strange it was that at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark, not only did these ancient traps work perfectly and reset themselves to kill new people, but they had even built traps with light-detecting mechanisms out of wood, twine, and stone.

[Dann-J]

The professor on Gilligan's Island could make anything out of coconut shells.

[kamal_]

Tchos wrote...

Someone pointed out somewhere (wish I could remember who) how strange it was that at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark, not only did these ancient traps work perfectly and reset themselves to kill new people, but they had even built traps with light-detecting mechanisms out of wood, twine, and stone.

They must be fun at parties.

[Dann-J]

kamal_ wrote...

Tchos wrote...

Someone pointed out somewhere (wish I could remember who) how strange it was that at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark, not only did these ancient traps work perfectly and reset themselves to kill new people, but they had even built traps with light-detecting mechanisms out of wood, twine, and stone.

They must be fun at parties.

The pedants, or the ancient traps?

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm also wondering about unusual effects like disease, poison, and level-drain. They're a big part of the mechanics of DnD play, but are they anything more than annoyances for single-player play? Poison or disease traps would seem to be ideal for occasional use - easy enough to plow through if you can heal yourself later, but worth avoiding if you can help it. They would also function better as offensive wild cards.

Does anyone have any interesting PnP experiences with traps? Is there some element of style that gets lost in the typical cRPG? (Maybe rolling boulders...the odd trap with a comically dire effect might be just what a dungeon needs)

[kamal_]

DannJ wrote...

kamal_ wrote...

Tchos wrote...

Someone pointed out somewhere (wish I could remember who) how strange it was that at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark, not only did these ancient traps work perfectly and reset themselves to kill new people, but they had even built traps with light-detecting mechanisms out of wood, twine, and stone.

They must be fun at parties.

The pedants, or the ancient traps?

Well, rolling boulders are good at clearing the hallways of unwanted guests, like the pedant. Cleanup might not be so fun though.

[Dann-J]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm also wondering about unusual effects like disease, poison, and level-drain. They're a big part of the mechanics of DnD play, but are they anything more than annoyances for single-player play? Poison or disease traps would seem to be ideal for occasional use - easy enough to plow through if you can heal yourself later, but worth avoiding if you can help it. They would also function better as offensive wild cards.

Traps that reduce your abilities can be worse than actual damage if there are enemies around. A barbarian can shrug off a few HP of damage and still be battle-ready, but reducing their strength or constitution can be a real handicap. Reducing the intelligence of a wizard is even worse. All without shedding a drop of blood.

Polymorph traps could be interesting. There's nothing worse that suddenly finding yourself as a 1HP chicken while hurtling towards a group of 'sickened goblins' you thought would be an easy encounter.

[GCoyote]

Depending on the choices you've made, there are several places in LotD and tDU where skillful use of traps can make or break your tactical plan. There are a couple of ambush missions in each module. Some can be done with the available companions or completed solo with a few traps to give your lone PC the extra time he needs to finish off the enemy.

LotD was the first module that really rewarded me for putting skill points into Set Trap. I used what I learned playing that to rethink some tough encounters in other modules. A few traps of the right sort, thoughtfully placed, can turn the tide of battle.

In the Dana'an Unvanquished, one quest requires obtaining the blood of some large bats that usually stay out over the water making it difficult to find the remains if you succeeded in killing one. On my last play through it finally dawned on me to solve the problem like a true backwoodsman. I set a few traps where the bats' flight path occasionally crossed dry land. I then went on about my business and came back later to collect the required creature parts.

In other modules, I use traps the way I was taught to use mines. Place them to protect my flanks, place them on the enemy's most likely path into my position, use them to delay a overpowering enemy while I escape. Be prepared to finish off any trap damaged enemies with missile fire, grenade like weapons, or magic.  Simple spike traps were used as recently as the Vietnam war.

A few traps add spice. Just no need to go crazy.

Modifié par GCoyote, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Thanks again, GCoyote. I think that turning water refraction on might make underwater objects clickable, though it's great that the little bug there lead you to an interesting use of the traps. I was thinking about making a bait item that would lure in certain animals, but it's remarkable that you were able to smartly place the traps without something like that.

Any insight on what traps work best for general tactical use, or how well they're priced? I always felt that traps would have to be either really cheap or easily crafted before they would be regularly used.

Would it be worthwhile to give the player an opportunity to place traps before a battle, maybe just a convo option that delays the battle until the player say's they're ready?