161 réponses à ce sujet

[Andrew_S]

Shepard just humors the lonely little guy with some conversation. The whole time Shep is thinking how sweet it is to have an old Carnifex with unlimited ammo and how he is going to shoot the crap out out of everything until the whole place explodes. Ya know, just like every other day in the life of Shep. It's all quite logical once you realize Shepard is the one being dishonest and biding his time until the next combat segment.

[Obadiah]

StreetMagic wrote...
...
It's main limitation is it assumes chaos is bad to begin with. Evolution is some kind of disease that must constantly be purged.

I don't think it was an assumption. It's analysis seemed to be that chaos is a part of the problem, probably because it meant Organics could not consciously stop the inevitable destruction of Organics by Synthetics even if they wanted to. We are uncontrolled individuals that do not behave in an ordered manner. The chaos means we can't stop ourselves.

I don't think the Catalyst took a position on Evolution, but why are people insistent on keeping it? Evolution means we randomly develop mutations that allow some of us to better compete and others to "lose" in a changing environment. It will kill us just as quickly if we don't happen to develop the necessary mutation fast enough.

StreetMagic wrote...
...
It's other limitation is it seemingly has no concept of pain. None. It's not like BSG AI, for sure - who seem to equate with pain with understanding organic life -- and even program themselves to experience it. The Catalyst and Reapers don't know anything about it. Making their ability to inflict it much more great.
...

I don't know what to say about this. Where did this idea come from?

It seems to me the Catalyst is about as brutal as other Organics that have historically gone to war in MEU, just with a different agenda.

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 décembre 2013 - 07:21 .

[Obadiah]

“Pain is an illusion.”

Sounds more like philosophy to me, and to certain extent, pain is an illusion. I don't think that line indicates that Harby or the Catalyst have no concept of pain.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Obadiah wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

So is skewing the oppositions argument like you just did. 

I for one thing it's a matter of limited perspective brought from a logic bomb stipulated by its creators, trying to solve a problem that should never have been as large a problem as it made to begin with. 

Also, it changes how it defines 'synthetic'. It's not keeping its explanations clear. It's not providing a formula for how it reached its conclusion. It's saying things that don't make scientific, biological, or logical sense. Its opinion is irrelevant. 

Age does not equal wisdom.

It's astonishing to me that players think that the Catalyst would not have taken any counter-argument that they could propose into its determination already. It has been observing Organics for millenia upon millenia, but is suffering from "limited perspective"? Ridiculous.

That's my main problem with the Catalyst scene: we as a player cannot ask the Catalyst the hard questions, we're forced to accept its entire argument. This seems especially weird because the ending sequence is basically 10 minutes of revelations. It would seem logical for Shepard to ask something like, "Hey, I'm here with a unified AI and Organic fleet, and the whole way that played out didn't really match your version of events," or even the simple, "How do I know this is not a trick?"

[Obadiah]

StreetMagic wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

“Pain is an illusion.”

Sounds more like philosophy to me, and to certain extent, pain is an illusion. I don't think that line indicates that Harby or the Catalyst have no concept of pain.

What does "philosophy" mean? Is Harbinger a Tibetan monk now?

He just doesn't understand the experience. He knows Shepard experiences something called pain "This hurts you". But he diminishes the experiences. He doesn't really understand.. only that he can inflict it.

Even if Harbinger couldn't experience pain, what's so difficult about the concept of an uncontrolled (not always), unpleasant (mostly), attention grabbing, distracting, memorable sensation? Basic observation of Organics will show how they react and behave to certain stimuli referred to as painful. Doesn't seem to me like the concept is that difficult to grasp.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

StreetMagic wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Doesn't seem to me like the concept is that difficult to grasp.

If you say so. But you're organic. You would say that.

Harbinger sees himself as ascended above it, I think -- he also hints that this form of being can be Shepard's too. "Such beings need never fear pain." He sees himself as a superior lifeform to not have pain. So even if he could somehow graspt the concept, I doubt he cares to now.

He's just a machine. Machines can be broken. <_<

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

“Pain is an illusion.”

Sounds more like philosophy to me, and to certain extent, pain is an illusion. I don't think that line indicates that Harby or the Catalyst have no concept of pain.

The catalyst may be aware of our definitions of pain regarding both the physical and metaphysical, but it's not likely that it truly comprehends it like a being that is physically capable of experiencing it can. Heck, Legion knows about the concept of being traumatized, but doesn't know if the geth are even capable of experiencing it themselves.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:05 .

[Farangbaa]

I love the Catalyst. If there had been a way to keep it alive and win, I would've.

[TheMyron]

To fully trust the Catalyst, you must take the "Leap of Faith".

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Why do you keep making these threads this long after release?

[Brovikk Rasputin]

StreetMagic wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Why do you keep making these threads this long after release?

Whatever his intentions, he got the rest of us to have a decent conversation, full of different views.

Different views that has been repeated on this forum for nearly two years. 

[Brovikk Rasputin]

StreetMagic wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Why do you keep making these threads this long after release?

Whatever his intentions, he got the rest of us to have a decent conversation, full of different views.

Different views that has been repeated on this forum for nearly two years. 

So what? I only started playing the game a few months ago. I'm still in the mood to want to talk about it.


edit: Well, 5 months, I think. Still though, try not to control what people think. It's not like we're talking about ****** and poop fetishes or pedophilia or something equally reviling.

Well I'm not asking anyone to stop talking. I'm just wondering why people like liggy seem to have been repeating themselves on here for so long. It's kind of weird.

[Redbelle]

Optimus Prime slapped Shepard on the shoulder as both sat by the bar

"Cheer up". He boomed. "Your not the first to buy the farm because a Sparkly McGuffin had to be carried somewhere. In my time it was called the All Spark! You know the number of times that things been the end of me"?

Shepard shook his head. "It's just...... we had something special, you know? Like I was really reaching out to people who reached out and we..... we connected...... you know? I mean gamers are getting older and more mature and I just feel like doing this sacrifice thing was......" He stopped. Unable to continue as he took the last pull from his beer and set it down next the collection that was gathering at his side.

Optimus raised his hand to get the bartenders attention. "Another for my friend"!

Liono sat with his back to the bar, his elbows resting behind him on the counter. "It's like I keep saying". He explained. "Never..... Ever...... Trust the spangly sparky stuff. It's nice to look at...... But really, what is that stuff? It should be a rule! If you carry something that glows all the time. It's either radioactive or a McGuffin. Either way. It'll kill you if you don't kill it first"!

"You cannot kill the All Spark". Optimus intoned.

"Or the Catalyst". Shepard added. "Trust me. Infinite ammo and I couldn't so much as make a dent in that thing..... Then they released that download and......". Shepard paused as he rubbed his eye's. "Face it guys..... Unless your royalty like kitty boy over there guy's like us don't stand a chance".

Optimus shrugged. "I'll be back in the next reboot. Unlike like Cat Scratch I'm part of a successful franchise"!

Shepard chuckled. "Shot's fired. You gonna take that? Oh Lord of the, one season wonder"?

Liono gave them both the evil eye. "Laugh it up. At least I can get through a season and not end up dead"!

"Maybe in the original series". Optimus pointed out. "But didn't you die and come back in one episode in the reboot"?

As the evening dragged on the debate ran back and forth. Finally Shepard said what they had been getting at all evening.

"Those writer's need to stop killing their hero's. I mean.... who out of all of us hasn't died at one point or another"?

As the question hung in the air the trio glances slid over to a dark booth where a old fat man in red plumber's overall's sat with a plate of pasta before him.

The guy's hunched over. "Then again. At least we died in our prime".

Modifié par Redbelle, 07 décembre 2013 - 01:38 .

[Daemul]

Deathsaurer wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Huh. I missed that line. Is it in 2 or 3? Haven't played 3 much.

2 actually

I've only recently discovered that most people don't get to hear all of Legions conversations in ME2, the last one most get is the Quarian recording one where a Geth asked if it had a soul. There's two more conversations after that, which are the most important ones you have with Legion , one of which has that line you quoted.  

[rekn2]

a lot of people in this thread have a weird view of reality. theres a finite amount of matter and occurrences in the universe. imo, logic can only go so far, its a science. just because the reapers are more advanced doesnt mean they are above or can manipulate logic.

[Redbelle]

rekn2 wrote...

a lot of people in this thread have a weird view of reality. theres a finite amount of matter and occurrences in the universe. imo, logic can only go so far, its a science. just because the reapers are more advanced doesnt mean they are above or can manipulate logic.

The Cat operates according to it's own logic while shunning those who do not agree with or subscribe to it's own. Fine, you can change how it operates. But it will not simply cease action based on logically reasoning from another life form.

The 3 choices are come from it's perspective. The fourth, refusal, does not. Choose any of the 3 options and it's fine with them because it put them on the table and is prepared to deal with the consequences.

But by it's own admission it has said that the Reaper solution every 50k years has now failed. Okay, it kills Sheps cycle, but it's a reprieve till the next cycle. But regardless of the Cat knowing that the future will not go the way it see's, it does not seek to negotiate, or make any effort to find another way. Despite all the options it could be given by Shepard. It see's no option's as valid unless those options come from itself. Hence it presents a wall to the player.

And that's the frustration of the Cat. With the entrance of the Cat the way of play changes to implyed agreement with a third party of the Reaper war through the options it presents that are morally repellent on one level or another throuhout all the options..... or you lose the game as player sitting in front of your computer by hearing that the Reapers win and nothing you did as Shepard mattered..... oh, and the Reapers were actually killed by the next cycle but we have no idea how that happened..... who was the hero..... waht they went through..... how the galaxy prepared..... how the warning's of Liara were taken...... SO MUCH STORY to be told of how the next cycle defeated the Reapers....... that will never be told.

It's a damp squib of a stroy that doesn't put flesh on the bones of a narrative regarding resolution of the main plot.

Euugh. Getting off topic. Cat's logic cannot be penetrated because it cannot engage a person in dialogue the way every other living sentient being in the galaxy does.

Modifié par Redbelle, 07 décembre 2013 - 03:17 .

[rekn2]

how do you know the next cycle wins?