243 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Oh, I agree entirely. If I was pushed into a corner like that, and had to fight or die, I would use every tool I had to fight for my life, consequences be damned.

I would totally risk becoming a demon possessed abomination and killing all my friends and loved ones to save my own life.

Oh, wait, no I wouldn't.

Right. And so if you were about to be slaughtered in a corner by templars, you would sit there and just let them kill you?

Orsino called.  He's totally on board with sacrificing everything in order to maybe kill a couple of templars before being overwhelmed.

There are things I value over my life.  Your specific words were 'consequences be damned'.  Well, when one of the potential consequences is becoming a horror who's only demonstrated desire is to kill indescriminately, then yes, as that's not a consequence I'm willing to accept I would definitely rather die.  The irony is you wouldn't even have saved yourself.  You would have simply been doomed a different way.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

Orsino called.  He's totally on board with sacrificing everything in order to maybe kill a couple of templars before being overwhelmed.

There are things I value over my life.  Your specific words were 'consequences be damned'.  Well, when one of the potential consequences is becoming a horror who's only demonstrated desire is to kill indescriminately, then yes, as that's not a consequence I'm willing to accept I would definitely rather die.  The irony is you wouldn't even have saved yourself.  You would have simply been doomed a different way.

Hold on there, you are mistaking what I am saying. If someone was rushing at me with a sword to kill me, if I was most assuredly about to die, if I had no other mana left, I would cut my arm or whatever to gain some extra energy. If I was in the middle of a battle, in the heat of the moment, people don't necessarily think or even have time to think about potential consequences. An enemy wouldn't give you the time to make up your mind and weigh the potential pros and cons. So if someone was about to kill you, you would attempt to defend your life. And please drop the Orsino thing, that is not what I meant. When I spoke of blood magic earlier, I meant using it as an emergency source of mana, not attempting to mind control or boil blood.

Modifié par eluvianix, 07 décembre 2013 - 09:26 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Juggernauts of Minrathous certainly means that Tevinter has a defensive advantage if their capital were ever attacked, but with the invention of the Templars, Tevinter has lost a lot of the advantages they used to have in an offensive.

Templar are worthless in battlefield conditions. while effective against mages they also have to deal with tevinter soldiers who can easily bog down the templar order . any sane commander would enmass target the templars with non magical artillery and arrow barrages al the while shielding his mages with troops. i also doubt that the templars are an effective fighting force against regular soldiers. templars operate in small groups and this will not fit on the battlefield where formation is essential.

Most likely the circle of mages had a far greater impact (confirmed in asunder) on the battlefield .  Defeating several exalted marches and defeating the qunari on their home soil alone means that they are the most powerful land army. however qunuari have the advantage at sea.

The only reason that Tevinter was ever able to "defeat" the Qunari during the Qunari Wars, was because the Qunari was busy fighting the rest of Thedas. If the Qunari had wished to, they could ahve just destroyed Tevinter, and then moved on to the rest of Thedas, but it would seem that the Qunari were impatient.

And the Templars are first and foremost an army. An army that specializes against magical opponents. They'd be just as fine fighting Tevinter Magisters as they would the Tevinter slave soldiers.
And why exactly would a field commander put his Templars, if he only had such a small force of them that he couldn't afford casualties, in a place where the enemy could concentrate fire on them without losing men fo their own. That would be downright incompetent of the field commander in question.

The tevinters and the qunari where still at war after thy the peace treaty so qunari had the oppertunity to put their full force against the tevinters. they failed however. And the templars may be an army buts its not an army thats trained for battlefield conditions. Furthermore i doubt that the templars are able to hold their own against battle hardend tevinter troops that have fought qunari for the last 400 years. Any death templar also costs a fortune in lyrium .

And your right no sane commander woul put the very expensive templars into a position where they are bogged down by tevinter soldiers or destroyed by artillery. but how they are going to shut down the mages if they cannot engage them? templars may have the ability to resist magic normal troops do not have that luxury and a few fireballs and your entire army can collapse on itself. the only ones that can protect other people from magic are mages.  So the circle is the only reason that the tevinters are not on the warpath.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

The tevinters and the qunari where still at war after thy the peace treaty so qunari had the oppertunity to put their full force against the tevinters. they failed however. And the templars may be an army buts its not an army thats trained for battlefield conditions. Furthermore i doubt that the templars are able to hold their own against battle hardend tevinter troops that have fought qunari for the last 400 years. Any death templar also costs a fortune in lyrium . 

No.... The Qunari didn't "fail". They just didn't. After the peae treaty was negotiated, the QUnari retreated their forces from ALL mainland Thedas, even Tevinter.

And exactly what do you base your claim about Tempalrs upon? All lore indicates that the Tempalrs are trained as an army. There is NOTHING in the lore that suggest what you say is correct. On the contrary, we got several referecnes that indicate that they indeed do train as an army. And the cost of a Templar matters little if Tevinter is invading.....

DKJaigen wrote...

And your right no sane commander woul put the very expensive templars into a position where they are bogged down by tevinter soldiers or destroyed by artillery. but how they are going to shut down the mages if they cannot engage them? templars may have the ability to resist magic normal troops do not have that luxury and a few fireballs and your entire army can collapse on itself. the only ones that can protect other people from magic are mages.  So the circle is the only reason that the tevinters are not on the warpath.

Except that at range a mage would hold no more power over the enemy army than usual field artillery. An onager or ballista are arguably gong to deal the same amount of damage as a mage. So in those initial stages the amges are of no immediate threat. Once melee is joined however, is when you can use your own artillery effectively, but mage magics offer the precission needed, to continue the high damage artillery like strikes upon the enemy, even if they are in melee with your own troops. In these cases the Templars will be needed to silence the enemy mages.

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that at range a mage would hold no more power over the enemy army than usual field artillery. An onager or ballista are arguably gong to deal the same amount of damage as a mage. So in those initial stages the amges are of no immediate threat. Once melee is joined however, is when you can use your own artillery effectively, but mage magics offer the precission needed, to continue the high damage artillery like strikes upon the enemy, even if they are in melee with your own troops. In these cases the Templars will be needed to silence the enemy mages.

Don't not forget that mages are more versatile - at long and at short rage - that catapults, onages and other siege equipment.

Catapults would only be able to blast the enemy and I think they might be less accurate than mages, no matter the distance.

Mages can electorcute, hex, paralyze, burn, freeze and others at long and short range.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 08 décembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[Ianamus]

Orlias is more powerful than Tevinter, but it is probably more powerful than Ferelden, Nevarra or the Free Marches.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that at range a mage would hold no more power over the enemy army than usual field artillery. An onager or ballista are arguably gong to deal the same amount of damage as a mage. So in those initial stages the amges are of no immediate threat. Once melee is joined however, is when you can use your own artillery effectively, but mage magics offer the precission needed, to continue the high damage artillery like strikes upon the enemy, even if they are in melee with your own troops. In these cases the Templars will be needed to silence the enemy mages.

I have to argue against your first sentence a little. Mages can do a whole lot more damage than normal field artillery. Summoning a storm, creating fiery infernos, blizzards, etc. is well beyond the means of normal artillery.

[Inprea]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that at range a mage would hold no more power over the enemy army than usual field artillery. An onager or ballista are arguably gong to deal the same amount of damage as a mage. So in those initial stages the amges are of no immediate threat. Once melee is joined however, is when you can use your own artillery effectively, but mage magics offer the precission needed, to continue the high damage artillery like strikes upon the enemy, even if they are in melee with your own troops. In these cases the Templars will be needed to silence the enemy mages.

I have to argue against your first sentence a little. Mages can do a whole lot more damage than normal field artillery. Summoning a storm, creating fiery infernos, blizzards, etc. is well beyond the means of normal artillery.

Don't forget their ability to augment their troops as well. A mage could stand back and cast life ward as well as other buffs from the restoration tree on their strongest warriors. They can also restore their stamina allowing them to fight harder for longer.

Then ther is the simple fact that a mage can heal someone while they're paralyzed and unable to drink a potion, which probably aren't as effective lor wise anyway, meaning a mage is a force amplyfier. I believe there is even an area affect spell that boost the healing and stamina regain of everyone standing within it. A mage could put that down under their archers for far greater affect.

I'd like to see someone try to do the same with a seige weapon.

[Medhia Nox]

The Abominations refer to themselves as "the next stage in evolution" (in the "Broken Circle") - sounds like this "Ascended Man" stuff to me.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:30 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Abominations refer to themselves as "the next stage in evolution" (in the "Broken Circle") - sounds like this "Ascended Man" stuff to me.

I also caught on to that similarity. But even still, those creatures in Broken Circle don't seem to hold a candle to whatever that Tevinter magister became.

Edit: And you are really pushing this "evolution" concept, aren't you.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:44 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that at range a mage would hold no more power over the enemy army than usual field artillery. An onager or ballista are arguably gong to deal the same amount of damage as a mage. So in those initial stages the amges are of no immediate threat. Once melee is joined however, is when you can use your own artillery effectively, but mage magics offer the precission needed, to continue the high damage artillery like strikes upon the enemy, even if they are in melee with your own troops. In these cases the Templars will be needed to silence the enemy mages.

Don't not forget that mages are more versatile - at long and at short rage - that catapults, onages and other siege equipment.

Catapults would only be able to blast the enemy and I think they might be less accurate than mages, no matter the distance.

Mages can electorcute, hex, paralyze, burn, freeze and others at long and short range.

Onagers and Ballistas has a range of up towards 500m, that far outranges anything we have seen a mage by leagues. This range advantage alone is enough to rely more on seige weapons than some mage for damage potential. Besides whatever spells a mage does decide to try and fling from a long range, would also logically have to travel a longer time, and thus be more susceptible to be dispelled on the way. Good luck dispelling the 76kg flamming rock flying towards you though.

[BioWareM0d13]

JulianWellpit wrote...

 Tevinter is a dying empire, just like The Western Roman Empire. They are not the force they once were. While they could handle a war with another nation in Thedas if it was not for the Qunari, they would be defeated by an alliance of two or more.

Using the 'Roman' comparison, I'd say the Tevinter are more similar to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire in the medieval period.

If that's what the devs loosely based Tevinter on, I wonder if they are eventually going to fall to the Qunari.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 08 décembre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that at range a mage would hold no more power over the enemy army than usual field artillery. An onager or ballista are arguably gong to deal the same amount of damage as a mage. So in those initial stages the amges are of no immediate threat. Once melee is joined however, is when you can use your own artillery effectively, but mage magics offer the precission needed, to continue the high damage artillery like strikes upon the enemy, even if they are in melee with your own troops. In these cases the Templars will be needed to silence the enemy mages.

Don't not forget that mages are more versatile - at long and at short rage - that catapults, onages and other siege equipment.

Catapults would only be able to blast the enemy and I think they might be less accurate than mages, no matter the distance.

Mages can electorcute, hex, paralyze, burn, freeze and others at long and short range.

Onagers and Ballistas has a range of up towards 500m, that far outranges anything we have seen a mage by leagues. This range advantage alone is enough to rely more on seige weapons than some mage for damage potential. Besides whatever spells a mage does decide to try and fling from a long range, would also logically have to travel a longer time, and thus be more susceptible to be dispelled on the way. Good luck dispelling the 76kg flamming rock flying towards you though.

There are such things as magical shields, no?
Also, what in hell is an "onager"? I must confess that I have no clue what that is.

[Hellion Rex]

Han Shot First wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

 Tevinter is a dying empire, just like The Western Roman Empire. They are not the force they once were. While they could handle a war with another nation in Thedas if it was not for the Qunari, they would be defeated by an alliance of two or more.

Using the 'Roman' comparison, I'd say the Tevinter are more similar to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire in the medieval period.

If that's what the devs loosely based Tevinter on, I wonder if they are eventually going to fall to the Qunari.

Actually David Gaider confirmed that Tevinter was based off the Byzantium.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Defensively speaking the Tevinter is easily the most defensive nation in the entire world without a doubt. They've been attacked by ever single civilization that has ever drawn breath save for the Dwarves and nothing has been able to conquer them. If I may loosely barrow a line from Apocalypse "They are the rocks of the eternal shore crash upon them and be broken."

As for the power when it comes to attacking and conquering I think Its fair to say that Tevinter and Orlais are just about equal when it comes to aggressive military power. A Codex speaking about one of the last Blights said that the Blight was destroying ever nation on Thedas except for Tevinter and Orlais that were easily able to defend themselves and beat the horde back off their borders. So its clear that they are the two most powerful militaries on Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that at range a mage would hold no more power over the enemy army than usual field artillery. An onager or ballista are arguably gong to deal the same amount of damage as a mage. So in those initial stages the amges are of no immediate threat. Once melee is joined however, is when you can use your own artillery effectively, but mage magics offer the precission needed, to continue the high damage artillery like strikes upon the enemy, even if they are in melee with your own troops. In these cases the Templars will be needed to silence the enemy mages.

Don't not forget that mages are more versatile - at long and at short rage - that catapults, onages and other siege equipment.

Catapults would only be able to blast the enemy and I think they might be less accurate than mages, no matter the distance.

Mages can electorcute, hex, paralyze, burn, freeze and others at long and short range.

Onagers and Ballistas has a range of up towards 500m, that far outranges anything we have seen a mage by leagues. This range advantage alone is enough to rely more on seige weapons than some mage for damage potential. Besides whatever spells a mage does decide to try and fling from a long range, would also logically have to travel a longer time, and thus be more susceptible to be dispelled on the way. Good luck dispelling the 76kg flamming rock flying towards you though.

There are such things as magical shields, no?
Also, what in hell is an "onager"? I must confess that I have no clue what that is.

An Onager is basically a "cheap man's Ballista". Real balistas were massive contraptions designed to launch huge rocks and not the spear sized bolt you usually see in video games. The onagers were easier to build and maintain, but could not reach the same range or destructive potential of a Ballista.
The spearthrowers we see in many video games are actually more akin to the Roman "Scorpion" which were also a development from the Ballista design. The Scorpion were designed to be a "sniper" and hit specific targets, whereas a Ballista was designed to hit specific areas, to put it simply.

And magical shields are not an "I-WIN-BUTTON". I would believe that if the barriers erected by mages are to be strong enough to prevent enemy siege artillery from impacting with their forces, the barriers would also have to block friendly artillery from firing out.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: Well - I only thought of it actually when someone else said that whoever tried this "Ascended Man" thing - became an abomination.

I don't think I'm "pushing" it per se, while I do want to see it - yes. I just think there are possible connections (I stress possible. I've been told before I was making proclamations and I'd like to try to avoid that in the future.)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Qunari could only "fail" in their war on Tevinter if they turned their full force on the Imperium and were defeated. ThHat didn't happen. They put most of their effort into pacifying Seheron.

Tevinter has made efforts to conquer other neighbors since it was reduced to it's current territory in the Second Blight, but it's been less successful overall than Orlais.

[Afro_Explosion]

Tevinter still has some fight left in her, but if the qunari focus their full force on tevinter, and no one stands with tevinter they will fall.

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

 Tevinter is a dying empire, just like The Western Roman Empire. They are not the force they once were. While they could handle a war with another nation in Thedas if it was not for the Qunari, they would be defeated by an alliance of two or more.

Using the 'Roman' comparison, I'd say the Tevinter are more similar to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire in the medieval period.

If that's what the devs loosely based Tevinter on, I wonder if they are eventually going to fall to the Qunari.

Actually David Gaider confirmed that Tevinter was based off the Byzantium.

I don't know about you guys, but Tevinter seems like a mix of the two for me.It seems more like how the Western Roman Empire would have been if it resisted against the barbaric invasions or if the situation was reversed and the Eastern Roman Empire would have been attacked and conquered by the slavs after 602 when they arrived in Europe, while the german barbarians would have let their wester brothers alone (or just caused some problems here and there).

It just sends me that dying and decaing feeling the Western Empire sends me. Compared to the Eastern Empire, The Western one keept getting smaller and smaller during its existence ( like Tevinter), while the Eastern one decreassed, but had a few fluctuations when it got some extra land back.

In the end, it's just my opinion and you don't have to agree with me if you don't want to or think I'm wrong.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that at range a mage would hold no more power over the enemy army than usual field artillery. An onager or ballista are arguably gong to deal the same amount of damage as a mage. So in those initial stages the amges are of no immediate threat. Once melee is joined however, is when you can use your own artillery effectively, but mage magics offer the precission needed, to continue the high damage artillery like strikes upon the enemy, even if they are in melee with your own troops. In these cases the Templars will be needed to silence the enemy mages.

Don't not forget that mages are more versatile - at long and at short rage - that catapults, onages and other siege equipment.

Catapults would only be able to blast the enemy and I think they might be less accurate than mages, no matter the distance.

Mages can electorcute, hex, paralyze, burn, freeze and others at long and short range.

Onagers and Ballistas has a range of up towards 500m, that far outranges anything we have seen a mage by leagues. This range advantage alone is enough to rely more on seige weapons than some mage for damage potential. Besides whatever spells a mage does decide to try and fling from a long range, would also logically have to travel a longer time, and thus be more susceptible to be dispelled on the way. Good luck dispelling the 76kg flamming rock flying towards you though.

While distance would be longer, precision would be not that good. It's just a matter of preferences : do I want precision,but shorter range or longer range, but lesser precision ?

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 08 décembre 2013 - 09:28 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

JulianWellpit wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but Tevinter seems like a mix of the two for me.It seems more like how the Western Roman Empire would have been if it resisted against the barbaric invasions or if the situation was reversed and the Eastern Roman Empire would have been attacked and conquered by the slavs after 602 when they arrived in Europe, while the german barbarians would have let their wester brothers alone (or just caused some problems here and there).

It just sends me that dying and decaing feeling the Western Empire sends me. Compared to the Eastern Empire, The Western one keept getting smaller and smaller during its existence ( like Tevinter), while the Eastern one decreassed, but had a few fluctuations when it got some extra land back.

In the end, it's just my opinion and you don't have to agree with me if you don't want to or think I'm wrong.

It's not supposed to be an exact comparison. And didn't Constantinople have a similar sort of reputation for being unassailable as Minrathous?

As far as the Imperium goes, the fact that they've withstood centuries of battering from all sides is a testament to their durability but also a sign that their days are numbered. Eventually they will break under the pressure.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 décembre 2013 - 09:32 .

[Vulpe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but Tevinter seems like a mix of the two for me.It seems more like how the Western Roman Empire would have been if it resisted against the barbaric invasions or if the situation was reversed and the Eastern Roman Empire would have been attacked and conquered by the slavs after 602 when they arrived in Europe, while the german barbarians would have let their wester brothers alone (or just caused some problems here and there).

It just sends me that dying and decaing feeling the Western Empire sends me. Compared to the Eastern Empire, The Western one keept getting smaller and smaller during its existence ( like Tevinter), while the Eastern one decreassed, but had a few fluctuations when it got some extra land back.

In the end, it's just my opinion and you don't have to agree with me if you don't want to or think I'm wrong.

It's not supposed to be an exact comparison. And didn't Constantinople have a similar sort of reputation for being unassailable as Minrathous?

As far as the Imperium goes, the fact that they've withstood centuries of battering from all sides is a testament to their durability but also a sign that their days are numbered. Eventually they will break under the pressure.

Yes, it had...until the ottomans breached with a canon a wall that was weaker because it was earlier built and the Crusaders also attacked that part of the wall some time (about 200-250 years) before the siege. There are also rumors that they've forgotten to seal/lock ( I don't know the proper word for this type of gates ) the gate on that part of the wall and that the turks found this out ( no betrayal or spy.Just some morons that didn't sealed it ). If Minrathous falls because of a gate that they forgot to seal...let's just say you wouldn't want to be near me when this happens.<_<

I agree that it doesn't have to be a exact comparison, that's why I say that it seems like a mix of the two for me. The Eastern one had a good period when it trived while Tevinter seems to be going further and further into the abyss. 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 08 décembre 2013 - 09:49 .

[Bogrot]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but Tevinter seems like a mix of the two for me.It seems more like how the Western Roman Empire would have been if it resisted against the barbaric invasions or if the situation was reversed and the Eastern Roman Empire would have been attacked and conquered by the slavs after 602 when they arrived in Europe, while the german barbarians would have let their wester brothers alone (or just caused some problems here and there).

It just sends me that dying and decaing feeling the Western Empire sends me. Compared to the Eastern Empire, The Western one keept getting smaller and smaller during its existence ( like Tevinter), while the Eastern one decreassed, but had a few fluctuations when it got some extra land back.

In the end, it's just my opinion and you don't have to agree with me if you don't want to or think I'm wrong.

It's not supposed to be an exact comparison. And didn't Constantinople have a similar sort of reputation for being unassailable as Minrathous?

As far as the Imperium goes, the fact that they've withstood centuries of battering from all sides is a testament to their durability but also a sign that their days are numbered. Eventually they will break under the pressure.

Yes, it had...until the ottomans breached with a canon a wall that was weaker because it was earlier built and the Crusaders also attacked that part of the wall some time (about 200-250 years) before the siege. There are also rumors that they've forgotten to seal/lock ( I don't know the proper word for this type of gates ) the gate on that part of the wall and that the turks found this out ( no betrayal or spy.Just some morons that didn't sealed it ). If Minrathous falls because of a gate that they forgot to seal...let's just say you wouldn't want to be near me when this happens.<_<

I agree that it doesn't have to be a exact comparison, that's why I say that it seems like a mix of the two for me. The Eastern one had a good period when it trived while Tevinter seems to be going further and further into the abyss. 

Tevinter, in my opinion, still resembles the Eastern Empire more. Its capital, its religious schism, its endless war against aggresive "alien" cultures, the exalted marches directed against them and D. Gaider's comments support this idea.
On the other hand, it seems to me that there is a consensus regarding the equivalence between the Qunari and the Ottoman Turks. In my opinion, a better candidate for the real-world Qunari is the Islamic Caliphate, not just the Ottoman Turks (although at some point, the Ottomans claimed the Caliphate themselves). The Ottomans conquered only the remains of the Eastern Empire, not the Eastern Empire itself.
Lore seems to suggest that Tevinter has started to regain some of its former power so maybe it enters an expansion cycle a la 10th century Byzantium.
Regarding the other nations in Thedas, it seems that Orlais is based on France, Ferelden on Anglo-Saxon England, the Chasid on Scotland/Irland/Scandinavia, the Marches on the Holy Roman Empire (which included northern Italy and the Low Countries), Nevarra on Prussia or the Habsburgs, Antiva on the Kingdom of Sicilly and Aragon, Rivain on the Balkans or al-Andalus and Anderfels on Poland or Lithuania or Terra Mariana. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the Qunari sort of represent foreign invaders of Europe in general, with elements of the Arabs, Ottoman Turks and Mongols.

[Hellion Rex]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think the Qunari sort of represent foreign invaders of Europe in general, with elements of the Arabs, Ottoman Turks and Mongols.

They are certainly a mix of a bunch of culture, both invader and non.