243 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I can assure you, that siege towers and battering rams were certainly on the decline at the time of muskets. Generally at the time of muskets siege warfare was at a decline, since it was easier for the enemy to simply ignore the fortification and force the defender out on the field, than to actually lay siege.
And I can also tell you that we still use battering rams and siege towers today.. However with the accesibility of guns and explosives, they are certainly only a circumstancial use nowadays.

I can tell you that in this parts they were't. We started to get in trend with the rest of the world barely in the 19 century, during the Independence War.

The battle I'm talking about took place in the 17 century.

17th century was still reasonably early in the development of gunpowder as to still allow for mass formation combat with infantry still mainly composed of melee soldiers, usually armed with pikes.
And honestly... Just from a quick google search of that citadel... Obivously the EFFECTIVE height of the walls are several hundred meters. Normal siege equipment would be useless in a siege of that fortress.....

That also explains why, even thought he story is obivously embelished and romantized beyond credibility, why a "less than 25" strong force can defend it against a 25.000 strong attacking force..

The story fits the ottoman chronicles. While I doubt that those are the actual numbers, I'm sure that the forces difference was huge.

As for the fortress positioning - that's how we roll . Burn the crops, poison the wells and move the population in the mountains.We always used the mountains and high ground in our fights.We were almost every time at a technological and numerical disadvantage.  

But then hopefully you understand why a fortress like this, can afford having lower walls than say, a fortress in the middle of a field no?

[Han Shot First]

Prior to the civil war at least, I think Orlais is the dominant military power of Thedas. The Tevinter Imperium is still powerful, but I don't think they're the superpower of the continent. Tevinter is an Empire whose best days are behind it.

My guess is that this would be the top three powers of Thedas, in order:

1. Orlais

2. The Tevinter Imperium

3. Nevarra


Replace Nevarra with the Qunari if you want to include them as a faction of Thedas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'd say the Qunari are stronger than any single human nation. The question is whether they are strong enough to conquer them.

[The Elder King]

@Han Shot First: I really doubt that the qunari are weaker than Orlais and Tevinter, considering that it took the power of all the nations to repel them.
Not to mention the power of their fleet, compared to the weakness of the rest of Thedas's states.

Modifié par hhh89, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:03 .

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But then hopefully you understand why a fortress like this, can afford having lower walls than say, a fortress in the middle of a field no?

Of course I understand. It's just that the Tevinter one seemed to be on a higher ground , only that it was the cliff type. You can see some qunari climbing there.After the climbed that cliff, then yes, it seems to be a flat surface.As a note, those walls don't look like your traditional stone wall. I doubt that someone can use ladders on them or even build some ( no trees ). It also seems that the qunari have to climb those walls ( there's one on the lower-left corner ) and the only way they can properly enter is the main gate ( or a breach in the wall - no sure )

What I don't get is how we ended up speaking about fortresses placement and wall height when the subject at hand was the range of spells.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:06 .

[The Elder King]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'd say the Qunari are stronger than any single human nation. The question is whether they are strong enough to conquer them.

They weren't in the past, but I doubt that the qunari aren't upgrading their military. And they are probably waiting for the right time.
And condidering the Mages-templar war, the OCW, the possible civil wars in other countries (Nevarra doesn't have a direct heir), the situation isn't good for southern Thedas.

[Han Shot First]

hhh89 wrote...

@Han Shot First: I really doubt that the qunari are weaker than Orlais and Tevinter, considering that it took the power of all the nations to repel them.
Not to mention the power of their fleet, compared to the weakness of the rest of Thedas's states.

I rank the Qunari lower because of their aversion to magic. For all the discipline and technolical superiority of their armies, that attitude towards magic hamstrings them.

[Hellion Rex]

Han Shot First wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Han Shot First: I really doubt that the qunari are weaker than Orlais and Tevinter, considering that it took the power of all the nations to repel them.
Not to mention the power of their fleet, compared to the weakness of the rest of Thedas's states.

I rank the Qunari lower because of their aversion to magic. For all the discipline and technolical superiority of their armies, that attitude towards magic hamstrings them.

And yet they still hold their own against ALL of the nations that do have magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But then hopefully you understand why a fortress like this, can afford having lower walls than say, a fortress in the middle of a field no?

Of course I understand. It's just that the Tevinter one seemed to be on a higher ground , only that it was the cliff type. You can see some qunari climbing there.After the climbed that cliff, then yes, it seems to be a flat surface.As a note, those walls don't look like your traditional stone wall. I doubt that someone can use ladders on them or even build some ( no trees ). It also seems that the qunari have to climb those walls ( there's one on the lower-left corner ) and the only way they can properly enter is the main gate ( or a breach in the wall - no sure )

What I don't get is how we ended up speaking about fortresses placement and wall height when the subject at hand was the range of spells.

A wizard did it. No doubt a plot to delay my inevitable deduction of their weaknesses.

[Han Shot First]

eluvianix wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Han Shot First: I really doubt that the qunari are weaker than Orlais and Tevinter, considering that it took the power of all the nations to repel them.
Not to mention the power of their fleet, compared to the weakness of the rest of Thedas's states.

I rank the Qunari lower because of their aversion to magic. For all the discipline and technolical superiority of their armies, that attitude towards magic hamstrings them.

And yet they still hold their own against ALL of the nations that do have magic.

They didn't. They lost.

They might have put up a tough fight, but their offensives were ultimately stopped cold because the factions of Thedas field more mages.

If the Qunari had a more open-minded attitude towards magic they'd probably be the dominant power on the continent, and the Tevinter Imperium would most likely cease to exist. But that reluctance to use magic ultimately gives their military a fatal flaw.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Han Shot First wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Han Shot First: I really doubt that the qunari are weaker than Orlais and Tevinter, considering that it took the power of all the nations to repel them.
Not to mention the power of their fleet, compared to the weakness of the rest of Thedas's states.

I rank the Qunari lower because of their aversion to magic. For all the discipline and technolical superiority of their armies, that attitude towards magic hamstrings them.

And yet they still hold their own against ALL of the nations that do have magic.

They didn't. They lost.

They might have put up a tough fight, but their offensives were ultimately stopped cold because the factions of Thedas field more mages.

If the Qunari had a more open-minded attitude towards magic they'd probably be the dominant power on the continent, and the Tevinter Imperium would most likely cease to exist. But that reluctance to use magic ultimately gives their military a fatal flaw.

The Qunari didn't lose. They were fought to a standstill, then they accepted the Llomerryn Accord, and drew back their forces from most of mainland Thedas.
This means that the Qunari were fully capable of taking on the combined might of Thedas, and fight it to a standstill.

[The Elder King]

They didn't lost just because the other faction had more and better mages. The Felicisima Armada played a larger role in the qunari's defeat.
And beside, they still 'lost' because the rest of Thedas put all their resources together. Of Orlais fought the qunari with the Orlesian Circle alone, they'd have lost. Mages needs the support of an army, and the Orlesians aren't strong enough to face the qunari.
Plus, what EmperorSahlertz said.

Modifié par hhh89, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:20 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They definitely weren't strong enough to conquer all the nations of Thedas at once, but it still took the combined might of humanity 150 years of fighting to push the Qunari back to almost square one. I think that means it's likely they'd be able to subjugate any one nation and almost certainly their closet neighbors, but the problem would be holding it. Particularly since under normal circumstances the Chantry would not tolerate such a threat.

In strategic terms the war ended in a draw. In terms of objectives, the humans can sort of claim victory. The Qunari failed in their goal to bring all the Thedosian bas nations to the Qun and were slowly pushed back to more or less the territory they had before the Qunari Wars began. And the humans liberated all their lands except Kont-aar, which I think technically is human territory now too under the llomerryn Accords.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:29 .

[The Elder King]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They definitely weren't strong enough to conquer all the nations of Thedas at once, but it still took the combined might of humanity 150 years of fighting to push the Qunari back to almost square one. I think that means it's likely they'd be able to subjugate any one nation and almost certainly their closet neighbors, but the problem would be holding it. Particularly since under normal circumstances the Chantry would not tolerate such a threat.

I agree. Though the situation now is different, and southern Thedas is already in crysis. The Orlesian Civil war and the mage-templar war could seriously weaken the military power of southern Thedas.
The situation of crysis is the reason why I think that a qunari invasion plot is possible in DA4.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They definitely weren't strong enough to conquer all the nations of Thedas at once, but it still took the combined might of humanity 150 years of fighting to push the Qunari back to almost square one. I think that means it's likely they'd be able to subjugate any one nation and almost certainly their closet neighbors, but the problem would be holding it. Particularly since under normal circumstances the Chantry would not tolerate such a threat.

I agree. Though the situation now is different, and southern Thedas is already in crysis. The Orlesian Civil war and the mage-templar war could seriously weaken the military power of southern Thedas.
The situation of crysis is the reason why I think that a qunari invasion plot is possible in DA4.

Well, if the Veil tears didn't make their sarebaas all go nuts too. While I don't think that the sarebaas's possession might mean as much trouble to the Qunari, it is still a valid point to bear in mind.

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A wizard did it. No doubt a plot to delay my inevitable deduction of their weaknesses.

Now that's one of the most well structured,credible and undeniable explanation I have ever layed my eyes upon 

hhh89 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They definitely weren't strong enough to conquer all the nations of Thedas at once, but it still took the combined might of humanity 150 years of fighting to push the Qunari back to almost square one. I think that means it's likely they'd be able to subjugate any one nation and almost certainly their closet neighbors, but the problem would be holding it. Particularly since under normal circumstances the Chantry would not tolerate such a threat.

I agree. Though the situation now is different, and southern Thedas is already in crysis. The Orlesian Civil war and the mage-templar war could seriously weaken the military power of southern Thedas.
The situation of crysis is the reason why I think that a qunari invasion plot is possible in DA4.

Let's not forget that they now have intel that they didn't in those times.They had time to place their agents that now gather information about the other nations.The agents might play an important even role during the war : sabotage, assassination,intel gathering, opening gates and who knows what other things.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:32 .

[The Elder King]

@eluvianix: the Veil tears is definitely a variabile to consider, though we don't know exactly if it'll afect every part of the continent.
Depending on how much they are damaged (if they are), they could still have a great advantage.
@Julian Wellpit: I agree, we shouldn't understimate the role of the agents. And it's another proof that they're constantly analyzing the situation and waiting for the right time.

[Master Warder Z_]

hhh89 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'd say the Qunari are stronger than any single human nation. The question is whether they are strong enough to conquer them.

They weren't in the past, but I doubt that the qunari aren't upgrading their military. And they are probably waiting for the right time.
And condidering the Mages-templar war, the OCW, the possible civil wars in other countries (Nevarra doesn't have a direct heir), the situation isn't good for southern Thedas.

Isn't that great for the Qunari either, They are stuck in a ground war with the Imperium that neither side can win at the moment, the Qunari are likely facing near universial dejection after the stunt in Kirkwall that either cost them the military head of their entire society along with a dreadnaught and some of their best soldiers that either died or defected and what have you.

So ultimately yes the situation in southern thedas is chaos at the moment but the situation for the qunari is one of stalemate, stagnation and universial dislike that was present even before kirkwall but is now likely far more pressing.

And consider this, The Qunari repulusion in ages past was the first thing to unite every one fighting them together, like blights this is something that UNITES every one under a singular banner. And the Qunari would lose, Again. One single power cannot compare with a dozen others, Even the Qunari which as shown from kirkwall have their own weakeness that come with their society.

The ox men are hardly unfallable and in fact? I do see them trying something in the near future and see it blowing up in their face like always. I will be amazed if thedas actually gives their civilization a second reprieve if they instigate a third war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think that the Qunari give two pots of ****** about how the rest of Thedas see them hoenstly. And the only reason that the rest of Thedas joined in the past and aided Tevinter, was because that the Qunari epanded further into Rivain, Antiva and the Free Marches which were all adherent to the White Chantry. This forced the hand of the rest of Thedas. Previous to that, it would seem that they were perfectly fine in just sitting back and watching Tevinter get beatn into a bloody pulp by the Qunari.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think that the Qunari give two pots of ****** about how the rest of Thedas see them hoenstly. And the only reason that the rest of Thedas joined in the past and aided Tevinter, was because that the Qunari epanded further into Rivain, Antiva and the Free Marches which were all adherent to the White Chantry. This forced the hand of the rest of Thedas. Previous to that, it would seem that they were perfectly fine in just sitting back and watching Tevinter get beatn into a bloody pulp by the Qunari.

The Whites were still bitter about not being able to conquer Minrathous.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think that the Qunari give two pots of ****** about how the rest of Thedas see them hoenstly. And the only reason that the rest of Thedas joined in the past and aided Tevinter, was because that the Qunari epanded further into Rivain, Antiva and the Free Marches which were all adherent to the White Chantry. This forced the hand of the rest of Thedas. Previous to that, it would seem that they were perfectly fine in just sitting back and watching Tevinter get beatn into a bloody pulp by the Qunari.

And i think them being the near universially depised and hated ox men that they are just further cements their eventual defeat and destruction. After all you see them holding positions because they would convert locaal populations to act as canon fodder, With out that? they lack the numbers needed to invade. Moving although.

The exalted marches were at the result of the invasion true, But that said do you think they wouldn't go by history when they so often do normally within the DA lore? I have a feeling that the second the Qunari move southward once again they will find themselves besieged by every capable military within spitting distance before they can spout their inain hersy.

So while you wouldn't see the alliance out of love for the imperium, but just like the prior war it would likely occur merely because Tveinter is located so centrally to the Qunari and having the ability to disrupt their logistical trains is invaluable when fighting a war against a technogically superior force.

Its hard to hold a position when your reinforcements, additional armaments and food stockpiles are sitting on a sandbar in the southern Shoals of Sehron.

Not to mention i have a feeling Sehron and the Imperium will tie into DAI somewhat.

Perhaps that island can be taken by one side for good.

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think that the Qunari give two pots of ****** about how the rest of Thedas see them hoenstly. And the only reason that the rest of Thedas joined in the past and aided Tevinter, was because that the Qunari epanded further into Rivain, Antiva and the Free Marches which were all adherent to the White Chantry. This forced the hand of the rest of Thedas. Previous to that, it would seem that they were perfectly fine in just sitting back and watching Tevinter get beatn into a bloody pulp by the Qunari.

The Whites were still bitter about not being able to conquer Minrathous.

I doubt those arching stained marble walls will ever fall.

A Dozen armies have tried, not one succeded.

[TK514]

The Qunari didn't lose. They realized their objectives couldn't be met. The Qunari aren't fighting a war of conquest, they're fighting a war of conversion. When the Qunari realized that the Exalted Marches called against them were as busy slaughtering the innocent civilians the Qunari were trying to convert as engaging in battle, they withdrew and accepted a cease fire to reconsider the problem.

[Master Warder Z_]

TK514 wrote...

The Qunari didn't lose. They realized their objectives couldn't be met. The Qunari aren't fighting a war of conquest, they're fighting a war of conversion. When the Qunari realized that the Exalted Marches called against them were as busy slaughtering the innocent civilians the Qunari were trying to convert as engaging in battle, they withdrew and accepted a cease fire to reconsider the problem.

Sure and the fact that their Lines across Antiva, Rivain and Nevarra were collapsing at the sametime has nothing to do with the Withdrawl?

Also with them being shoved out of Kirkwall their military might was about spent, According to the Lore and from what i can glean the war was taking massive losses for the armies of Thedas but headway was being made and suddenly the Qunari offer terms of peace and they were taken.

To me? That implies they realized how royally screwed they were once their little loop around strategem via the free marches didn't work.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...

TK514 wrote...

The Qunari didn't lose. They realized their objectives couldn't be met. The Qunari aren't fighting a war of conquest, they're fighting a war of conversion. When the Qunari realized that the Exalted Marches called against them were as busy slaughtering the innocent civilians the Qunari were trying to convert as engaging in battle, they withdrew and accepted a cease fire to reconsider the problem.

Sure and the fact that their Lines across Antiva, Rivain and Nevarra were collapsing at the sametime has nothing to do with the Withdrawl?

Also with them being shoved out of Kirkwall their military might was about spent, According to the Lore and from what i can glean the war was taking massive losses for the armies of Thedas but headway was being made and suddenly the Qunari offer terms of peace and they were taken.

To me? That implies they realized how royally screwed they were once their little loop around strategem via the free marches didn't work.

I disagree. They were losing a crap ton of potential converts during the fighting, and that was part of the reason the Llomeryn Accords were signed. They fought every other nation to a standstill, but withdrew in part because the war was doing nothing for their cause.