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[Han Shot First]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The Qunari were invaders from outside Thedas who were busy trying to impose their will on the continent beyond Rivain and Seheron. Their offensives ended up being stopped cold, and they eventually were forced to withraw to behind their pre-war borders.

That is a defeat.

Their pre-war borders were Par Vollen alone, or if you want to get real technical they had no land at all before the war. After the war they sat firmly on Seheron and northeren Rivain. That is NOT a defeat.

Rivain and Seheron fell in the first Qunari War, a war the Qunari won.

The more recent war, which the Qunari lost, occurred 55 years later. Where I was incorrect was in stating that the Qunari had been forced to withdraw behind their pre-war borders. In fact Antiva and parts of the Tevinter Imperium had been captured during the first war, and were liberated in the second. So the Qunari were not only forced to withdraw back into Rivain and Seheron, but they lost Antiva and other territories in Tevinter as well. It was a clear defeat.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 11 décembre 2013 - 07:26 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The war never ended. There was constant war in Tevinter for instance. That people label them with "First Qunari War" and "Second Qunari War" to better differentiate between the offensives and phases of the overall conflict doesn't magically make it into seperate conflicts. There was no negotiated peace between the "wars" ergo the war was the same, no matter what title you attach to them.

And as we have now pointed out several times, the Qunari was never defeated. It didn't even seem like they suffered any significant military loses, despite the massive loses the Thedosians suffered. The cause of the Qunari withdrawal, was more that the civilians suffered needlessly as a result of the war, than one of necessity. The Qunari were perfectly capable of fighting the combined might of Thedas to a standstill.

[Han Shot First]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The war never ended. There was constant war in Tevinter for instance. That people label them with "First Qunari War" and "Second Qunari War" to better differentiate between the offensives and phases of the overall conflict doesn't magically make it into seperate conflicts. There was no negotiated peace between the "wars" ergo the war was the same, no matter what title you attach to them.

The conflict is collectively referred to as the Qunari Wars. Plural.
And the stage where Rivain and Seheron fell is called the First Qunari War. If it was not a separate conflict, there would be no need to differentiate it by the title 'first,' and the conflict would be called the Qunari War instead of the Qunari Wars.

A real world comparison would be the Crusades or the Hundred Year War. Both were actually several different conflicts that historians tend to lump together because they had the same cause and participants.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And as we have now pointed out several times, the Qunari was never defeated. It didn't even seem like they suffered any significant military loses, despite the massive loses the Thedosians suffered. The cause of the Qunari withdrawal, was more that the civilians suffered needlessly as a result of the war, than one of necessity. The Qunari were perfectly capable of fighting the combined might of Thedas to a standstill.

The Qunari failed to expand further into Thedas and lost territory in Antiva and Tevinter. How is it that not a defeat?

Whether or not it was concern for civilian or military casualties is ultimately irrelevant. The Qunari failed to achieve their war aims while the Theodosians did. That is how war works. Those who win achieve their war aims and those who don't...don't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Han Shot First wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The war never ended. There was constant war in Tevinter for instance. That people label them with "First Qunari War" and "Second Qunari War" to better differentiate between the offensives and phases of the overall conflict doesn't magically make it into seperate conflicts. There was no negotiated peace between the "wars" ergo the war was the same, no matter what title you attach to them.

The conflict is collectively referred to as the Qunari Wars. Plural.
And the stage where Rivain and Seheron fell is called the First Qunari War. If it was not a separate conflict, there would be no need to differentiate it by the title 'first,' and the conflict would be called the Qunari War instead of the Qunari Wars.

A real world comparison would be the Crusades or the Hundred Year War. Both were actually several different conflicts that historians tend to lump together because they had the same cause and participants.

The Crusades were actually different events, but the conflcit in the middle east was very much the same from the First Crusade to the last. It simply makes it easier for people to differentiate what time period you are talking about, if you say "during the first crusade" instead of just "during the conflict in the middle east in medieval times". Nevermind the fact that there was also sometimes negotiate ceasefires and even peace between factions between the Crusades, and you example just serves to further prove my point...

Han Shot First wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And as we have now pointed out several times, the Qunari was never defeated. It didn't even seem like they suffered any significant military loses, despite the massive loses the Thedosians suffered. The cause of the Qunari withdrawal, was more that the civilians suffered needlessly as a result of the war, than one of necessity. The Qunari were perfectly capable of fighting the combined might of Thedas to a standstill.

The Qunari failed to expand further into Thedas and lost territory in Antiva and Tevinter. How is it that not a defeat?

Whether or not it was concern for civilian or military casualties is ultimately irrelevant. The Qunari failed to achieve their war aims while the Theodosians did. That is how war works. Those who win achieve their war aims and those who don't...don't.

Because the MO of the Qunari changed from expansion to consolidation? The Qunari achieved exactly what they wanted. It may not have been what they originally set out, but no strategy survives contact with the enemy. The Qunari realzied that they couldn't expand so fast through Thedas without the civilians suffering for it, so they withdrew and held what they felt adequate.
If you suceed in you mission, then you were not defeated. Just because you lose some territory, does not mean you were defeated, especially not if the territory was given up willingly by you, so that you could more easily complete your mission.
The Qunari was fully capable of continuing the war, if they had wanted to. Yet they didn't because they saw no need at the given time. So obviously the Qunari were not defeated.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 décembre 2013 - 01:32 .

[DKJaigen]

JulianWellpit wrote...

@DKJaigen 
I have to dissagre on the templars are not good in wars part. They regulary train their swordsmanship between themselves and are better equiped than most soldiers.

Remember that most of the armies in medieval times were made from peasants, so militia. That would make templar more useful than the usual  peasant turned soldier for the war.

Also, they resemble the templar knights when it comes to their way of being. Templars were monks, pelering guards and bankers, but they were still fighters and they trained in swordplay.

The DA templars would be really defensive in their combat. They would be the anvil, holding the line and keeping the enemy force concentrated on them while another force would play the role of the hammer.

Even if they specialize in hunting mages, they are first an order of holy knights. Even if some of them wouldn't be so experienced in the art of warfare, they would get better, as any other soldier.

The quality of the militia varied greatly. so dont underestimate militia for example the english victories in the 100 year war achieved by yeomen longbow archers which where peasants. . Also do not forget that mercenary's also played a very large role in medieval battles.
I dont disagree that templars cant fight but they are horrendously cost inefficient . While the average knight is expensive enough this knight also guzzels up lyrium. And the problem still remains however is while normal knights bascially focus on the martial arts the templars needed it to split it between anti mage tactics and martial arts. The point im trying to make here however is that templars are not that important in large battles . mages on the otherhand are force multipliers. The templars can play anvil all they like but i will not aid them if your hammers arre burning because a mage looked at them.

[DRTJR]

I would think Dwarven or Qunari mercenaries would be more effective anti Mage units since there cheaper. And there are better general tropes as well.

[AlexanderCousland]

The point im trying to make here however is that templars are not that important in large battles . mages on the otherhand are force multipliers. The templars can play anvil all they like but i will not aid them if your hammers arre burning because a mage looked at them. 

Serious Flaw in your logic. If Mage's are force multiplier's would that not make Templar's force nullifiers? Templars(or Templar abilities) are important in any large battle that Mage's take part in. Not only to combat the enemy Magic, but to Make sure their own Mage's dont exacerbate their issues by turning into Abominations. Also, You seem to grossly underestimate the Templar's ability to disrupt spellcasting. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

FreshIstay wrote...

The point im trying to make here however is that templars are not that important in large battles . mages on the otherhand are force multipliers. The templars can play anvil all they like but i will not aid them if your hammers arre burning because a mage looked at them. 

Serious Flaw in your logic. If Mage's are force multiplier's would that not make Templar's force nullifiers? Templars(or Templar abilities) are important in any large battle that Mage's take part in. Not only to combat the enemy Magic, but to Make sure their own Mage's dont exacerbate their issues by turning into Abominations. Also, You seem to grossly underestimate the Templar's ability to disrupt spellcasting. 

Don't try to use logic, he has an immunity.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's worth noting that Templars participated in the Exalted March on the Dales according to the Dalish Codex on the Dales and it was only after that elves who had previously defeated the regular Orlesian army were crushed.

In regards to the Qunari Wars, I'd say the Qunari were losing by the end. They had suffered many losses and lost almost all their conquered territory. But that was only indirectly why they withdrew. It was explicitly said in multiple sources that the massacres of the Rivaini was what prompted the Llomerryn Accords. But that doesn't mean they weren't being pushed back. It's why they couldn't protect their conquered subjects.

By they end of the Qunari Wars, they had lost control of Tevinter, Seheron, Antiva, Kirkwall and most of Rivain. They only regained Seheron 60 years after the Llomerryn Accord was signed. But the human nations were also drained to the point of collapse. The reason they signed the peace treaty was because rebuilding was preferable to pursing total victory. And counterattacking to Par Vollen, likely would have been disastrous.

The post war borders were about the same as the pre-war borders and the Qunari's main lasting legacy was the Rivaini Qunari who embraced the Qun in the north.

Ergo, it was a stalemate which also was mainly a human victory.

[Vulpe]

DKJaigen wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

@DKJaigen 
I have to dissagre on the templars are not good in wars part. They regulary train their swordsmanship between themselves and are better equiped than most soldiers.

Remember that most of the armies in medieval times were made from peasants, so militia. That would make templar more useful than the usual  peasant turned soldier for the war.

Also, they resemble the templar knights when it comes to their way of being. Templars were monks, pelering guards and bankers, but they were still fighters and they trained in swordplay.

The DA templars would be really defensive in their combat. They would be the anvil, holding the line and keeping the enemy force concentrated on them while another force would play the role of the hammer.

Even if they specialize in hunting mages, they are first an order of holy knights. Even if some of them wouldn't be so experienced in the art of warfare, they would get better, as any other soldier.

The quality of the militia varied greatly. so dont underestimate militia for example the english victories in the 100 year war achieved by yeomen longbow archers which where peasants. . Also do not forget that mercenary's also played a very large role in medieval battles.
I dont disagree that templars cant fight but they are horrendously cost inefficient . While the average knight is expensive enough this knight also guzzels up lyrium. And the problem still remains however is while normal knights bascially focus on the martial arts the templars needed it to split it between anti mage tactics and martial arts. The point im trying to make here however is that templars are not that important in large battles . mages on the otherhand are force multipliers. The templars can play anvil all they like but i will not aid them if your hammers arre burning because a mage looked at them.

1) The yeomen longbow archers were far from being militia. They practiced the use of bows regularly, even in times of peace. It was basically their pas time activity. And i'm not underestimating the militia ability. Most of our medieval armies were made from them.

2) They had the Felicisima Armada as a mercenary force when facing the qunari, so yes mercenaries are helpful.

3) You forget one thing. Templars are like the holy knights. They don't need to be paided to do their job. All they need is their fate, some equipment and lyrium supplies.

4) The templars are there to prevent the mages from doing just that.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 11 décembre 2013 - 10:10 .

[DKJaigen]

FreshIstay wrote...

The point im trying to make here however is that templars are not that important in large battles . mages on the otherhand are force multipliers. The templars can play anvil all they like but i will not aid them if your hammers arre burning because a mage looked at them. 

Serious Flaw in your logic. If Mage's are force multiplier's would that not make Templar's force nullifiers? Templars(or Templar abilities) are important in any large battle that Mage's take part in. Not only to combat the enemy Magic, but to Make sure their own Mage's dont exacerbate their issues by turning into Abominations. Also, You seem to grossly underestimate the Templar's ability to disrupt spellcasting. 

They never get the chance. any decent commander would bog down the templar order with troops.

[The Baconer]

How in the flying **** did the Felicisima Armada manage to beat the Qunari in a naval battle? From what I understand, medieval naval battles rarely occurred. So from what I understand, Qunari ships outfitted with cannons were beat by, what, archers in cogs? Were they massively outnumbered and zerg-rushed by boarding? Would a pirate ship even have a high enough draft to properly board a dreadnought?

[Vulpe]

The Baconer wrote...

How in the flying **** did the Felicisima Armada manage to beat the Qunari in a naval battle? From what I understand, medieval naval battles rarely occurred. So from what I understand, Qunari ships outfitted with cannons were beat by, what, archers in cogs? Were they massively outnumbered and zerg-rushed by boarding? Would a pirate ship even have a high enough draft to properly board a dreadnought?

Zerg-rush and maybe some mages.

[The Elder King]

I'm more curious about another matter, if the Thedosian nations have stenghtened their fleets. It'd be dumb to not expect another invasion in the future, and the southern states couldn't hold a candle to the qunari's fleets. Relying on the Felicisima Armada (which I believe isn't unified anymore) isn't necessarily a good move.

Modifié par hhh89, 11 décembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[DRTJR]

The Baconer wrote...

How in the flying **** did the Felicisima Armada manage to beat the Qunari in a naval battle? From what I understand, medieval naval battles rarely occurred. So from what I understand, Qunari ships outfitted with cannons were beat by, what, archers in cogs? Were they massively outnumbered and zerg-rushed by boarding? Would a pirate ship even have a high enough draft to properly board a dreadnought?

The pirate ships are smaller and faster, thus harder to hit. They are also used to swarming larger ships plus the Qunari where likely under order to make sure their gunpowder secretes aren't found out by their enemies. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think it's been said that the Felcisma Armada always unifies in the face of a threat (Qunari or otherwise).

If I were the Qunari I'd try to cripple them in a surprise first strike on Llomerryn, but otherwise they would likley all join humanity's side again in the even of a new Qunari invasion.

[The Elder King]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think it's been said that the Felcisma Armada always unifies in the face of a threat (Qunari or otherwise).

If I were the Qunari I'd try to cripple them in a surprise first strike on Llomerryn, but otherwise they would likley all join humanity's side again in the even of a new Qunari invasion.

If that's true, it's reassuring, though it's still a mistake to not strenghten their fleet. If the qunari manages to surprise them and inflicting massive damage on the Armada, they'd be in serious trouble. And I woudn't disregard the fact that the qunari don't have plan to weaken to block the Armada. They were fundamental along with the mages in the Qunari Wars. The qunari probably recall that.

[The Baconer]

JulianWellpit wrote...
Zerg-rush and maybe some mages.

DRTJR wrote...
The pirate ships are smaller and faster, thus harder to hit.

Even so, the dreadnoughts should have an exponentially longer range of engagement, if they had formed a proper firing line/column then the results should have been disastrous for the pirates, especially since I'm going to assume they weren't organized enough to hold a tight formation. Of course, if they used fire ships I could see them breaking up the Qunari's formation, setting fire to their ships or even ingiting their magazines... Let's take another look at the battle from the comic.



So the Qunari dreadnought looks like a trireme outfitted with cannons... and without any sails. Comparing them to the cog near the top left (Isabela's? Can't remember at the moment) which I am assuming is a more conventional Thedosian design, it seems that the decks are actually  a little closer in vertical height than I initally thought, which makes boarding even more plausible. Biggest problem I see? Too many oars = not enough gunz. And I would think weighing it down with cannons, gunpowder, and ammunition would make it harder to create those bursts of speed for ramming other ships (though the greater strength of the Qunari might make this irrelevant). So, yes, while the Qunari have cannons, it looks like they have yet to properly adapt their tactics and ship designs to use them effectively.

Side-note: check out those fireballs near the top-right, and if you look downward from the cog, where the little dudes are climbing up from the sea, you can see a little explosion or impact. Taking perspective into account, it seems to imply that, lore-wise, mages can fire spells far enough to be considred artillery. I can see this being very problematic for any advancing army when used effectively, templars or not.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It's worth noting that Templars participated in the Exalted March on the Dales according to the Dalish Codex on the Dales and it was only after that elves who had previously defeated the regular Orlesian army were crushed.

In regards to the Qunari Wars, I'd say the Qunari were losing by the end. They had suffered many losses and lost almost all their conquered territory. But that was only indirectly why they withdrew. It was explicitly said in multiple sources that the massacres of the Rivaini was what prompted the Llomerryn Accords. But that doesn't mean they weren't being pushed back. It's why they couldn't protect their conquered subjects.

By they end of the Qunari Wars, they had lost control of Tevinter, Seheron, Antiva, Kirkwall and most of Rivain. They only regained Seheron 60 years after the Llomerryn Accord was signed. But the human nations were also drained to the point of collapse. The reason they signed the peace treaty was because rebuilding was preferable to pursing total victory. And counterattacking to Par Vollen, likely would have been disastrous.

The post war borders were about the same as the pre-war borders and the Qunari's main lasting legacy was the Rivaini Qunari who embraced the Qun in the north.

Ergo, it was a stalemate which also was mainly a human victory.

That is however, if the sources are to be believed, exactly what the Qunari hadn't. The sources seems to indicate that no matter how hard the humans pushed, it never seemed to make even a dent in the Qunari forces.
Making a tactical withdrawal does not mean that you lost. It simply means that the battlefield conditions has changed. The Qunari now faced a vastly numerically superior foe, in the form of all the combined armies of Thedas. It would only make sense for the Qunari to withdraw and make their front smaller, so as to better utilize their troops. In so doing, they left previously conquered territory unprotected, which lead to massacres on the civilians, because they refused to convert back to Andrastianism. This in turn let the Qunari to realize that this war was futile for them, so they agreed to the peace treaty, since a depopulated Thedas, was not what they wanted.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Actually I think that's not quite true.

The Llomerryn Accord Codex Entry by Sister Petrine says this:

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers , but the terrible toll upon the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third New Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew."

It says the Qunari did suffer casualties but they weren't what inspired the peace treaty.

The Chantry was indeed making headway against the Qunari occupation, slow as it was. It was only near the end of the war that the massacres prompted their retreat.

"Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed. For all the force that the Qunari armies had brought to bear on the north, they also lacked the sheer numbers of the humans. As each year passed, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines."

That part was from Tales of Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genetivi.

The first codex entry refers to the final two thirds of the war as "a century long siege." I think it was only in northern Rivain where the New Exalted March killed civilians without diminishing the Qunari defenders. By then the Qunari had surrendered every piece of conquered territory except Kont-aar.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 décembre 2013 - 01:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Of course the Qunari lost soldiers. But they obviously weren't terrible losses, otherwise the QUnari would have indeed been inspirered by that to attempt peace negotiations.
And of course the Qunari retreated. They were outnumbered by a large margin, and could not afford a war of attrition. The only strategic choice for the Qunari were to fall back and consolidate their posistion.
And Antiva and Tevinter had not been firmly under Qunari control for quite as long as Rivain, so there probably weren't all that many converts there yet to massacre. But you should have no doubts, that whatever converts remained behind in those lands, were probably promptly slaughtered by the Andrastians.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

A war of attrition was exactly what happened. That's why it was so slow. And I frankly, no I don't think losses of their own would have inspired them to sue for peace. First of all Par Vollen itself was not threatened. Second, Qunari are both supremely confident in their ultimate ability to succeed and generally unwilling to compromise their principles. In my opinion, Negotiating for peace based only on their own tactical setbacks likely would have been too big of a compromise of their mission to bring the Qun to the bas. They would have believed they could turn the tide, but their inability to protect their potential converts was an immutable fact they could not deny.

After the Llomerryn Accords the Qunari withdrew back to Par Vollen even from territory owned by the Imperium. They didn't return in force for decades. If they still had the same level of might they had when they occupied a third of Thedas, they could have immediately focused on crushing the Imperium.

[Vulpe]

The Baconer wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...
Zerg-rush and maybe some mages.

DRTJR wrote...
The pirate ships are smaller and faster, thus harder to hit.

Even so, the dreadnoughts should have an exponentially longer range of engagement, if they had formed a proper firing line/column then the results should have been disastrous for the pirates, especially since I'm going to assume they weren't organized enough to hold a tight formation. Of course, if they used fire ships I could see them breaking up the Qunari's formation, setting fire to their ships or even ingiting their magazines... Let's take another look at the battle from the comic.



So the Qunari dreadnought looks like a trireme outfitted with cannons... and without any sails. Comparing them to the cog near the top left (Isabela's? Can't remember at the moment) which I am assuming is a more conventional Thedosian design, it seems that the decks are actually  a little closer in vertical height than I initally thought, which makes boarding even more plausible. Biggest problem I see? Too many oars = not enough gunz. And I would think weighing it down with cannons, gunpowder, and ammunition would make it harder to create those bursts of speed for ramming other ships (though the greater strength of the Qunari might make this irrelevant). So, yes, while the Qunari have cannons, it looks like they have yet to properly adapt their tactics and ship designs to use them effectively.

Side-note: check out those fireballs near the top-right, and if you look downward from the cog, where the little dudes are climbing up from the sea, you can see a little explosion or impact. Taking perspective into account, it seems to imply that, lore-wise, mages can fire spells far enough to be considred artillery. I can see this being very problematic for any advancing army when used effectively, templars or not.

The qunari dreadnought seem to be a combination of the trireme and the japanese fortress like ships.The advantage is that the trireme-fortress ships combo makes them stable and able to navigate on sea ( the japanese ones had to stay close to the shore if they didn't want to be sinked by the waves ) and that they can house a ridiculous amount of forces. The downside - low speed. Because of this they would need a lot of time to position themselves in such a way that they could completly destroy the raiders ships. The raiders would have outmaneuver them with ease and remain on the cannons blind spots until they  would find an oppening for boarding. Also, they could avoid raming pretty easely. There might have also been some mages on those ships ( pirate apostates or circle mages ) that played the role of the artillery and let's not underestimate fire arrows.

Side-note: 

If you would have read this thread from the beginning, you would have noticed that I brought up the same image that you did on the page nr 4 , when we were still discussing mage range spells . The subject quickly changed to walls and fortresses, but what I am trying to say is that I noticed those things ( among others ) 

As for at the mage artillery part, I think there is something you didn't notice. Look on the lower left part of the image. See the lightning fungus thing. Look above it. There is another one in the distance - Lightning snipping for the win  !

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

A war of attrition was exactly what happened. That's why it was so slow. And I frankly, no I don't think losses of their own would have inspired them to sue for peace. First of all Par Vollen itself was not threatened. Second, Qunari are both supremely confident in their ultimate ability to succeed and generally unwilling to compromise their principles. In my opinion, Negotiating for peace based only on their own tactical setbacks likely would have been too big of a compromise of their mission to bring the Qun to the bas. They would have believed they could turn the tide, but their inability to protect their potential converts was an immutable fact they could not deny.

After the Llomerryn Accords the Qunari withdrew back to Par Vollen even from territory owned by the Imperium. They didn't return in force for decades. If they still had the same level of might they had when they occupied a third of Thedas, they could have immediately focused on crushing the Imperium.

A war of attrition was exactly what DIDN'T happen, because the Qunari chose to retreat instead of standing and fighting. There was continual maneuvering, which is an indicator that it wasn't a war of attrition, since one of the hallmarks of attritional warfare is that the lines are mostly static.
The Qunari withdrew and consolidated exactly to avoid needless confrontations where they would suffer attritional loses, and gain nothing from it.
And suffering so severe loses as you suggest that the Qunari would be on the brink of defeat, would shake them. It would affect them. It is basic psychology.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They did stand and fight. That's why the codex describes how and why the Chantry's fighting was effective against the Qunari forces. If the Qunari just fled in the face of incoming human armies, it wouldn't have taken a century for humanity to liberate their lands nor would the mages have been important in doing it.

The Qunari weren't on the brink of total defeat, but they were suffering losses that caused them to lose their holdings.