243 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Again, they didn't flee. Of course they fought some battles, they would have had to at some point. That doesn't mean that they weren't withdrawing. It was most likely a fighting retreat. But they certainly didn't stand and fight a war of attrition with the humans, since it would be clear to everyone that they would lose it. It just doesn't make strategic sense. And it only took the humans around 40 years to push the Qunari back to Seheron and Rivain the first time, which is NOT a huge amount of time in medieval warfare. After that it took the Qunari 25 years approximately to take much of Antiva again, which also shows that they were still fully capable of fighting the whole of Thedas. This proves that the Qunari are smart enough to know how to control the theater and only lose the bare minimal troops in necessary action. Simply put the Qunari never suffered terrible loses, and what they really suffered from, was that they weren't enough to check the enemy aggression, the QUnari could not prevent the humans from pushing through their lines, simply due to the sheer amount of humans.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, they didn't flee. Of course they fought some battles, they would have had to at some point. That doesn't mean that they weren't withdrawing. It was most likely a fighting retreat. But they certainly didn't stand and fight a war of attrition with the humans, since it would be clear to everyone that they would lose it. It just doesn't make strategic sense. And it only took the humans around 40 years to push the Qunari back to Seheron and Rivain the first time, which is NOT a huge amount of time in medieval warfare. After that it took the Qunari 25 years approximately to take much of Antiva again, which also shows that they were still fully capable of fighting the whole of Thedas. This proves that the Qunari are smart enough to know how to control the theater and only lose the bare minimal troops in necessary action. Simply put the Qunari never suffered terrible loses, and what they really suffered from, was that they weren't enough to check the enemy aggression, the QUnari could not prevent the humans from pushing through their lines, simply due to the sheer amount of humans.

What scource exactly are you basing this on? That's really the heart of the issue here.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Considering the fact that even while being pushed back that they were able to continuesly launch offensives. Obviously they had troops to spare from their defensive actions, ergo they were not suffering terrible loses.

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Considering the fact that even while being pushed back that they were able to continuesly launch offensives. Obviously they had troops to spare from their defensive actions, ergo they were not suffering terrible loses.

I think that a war of 150 years (correct me if I'm wrong ) would cause a lot of casualties for both sides. I think that the secret of the qunari is their selective breeding program. The Ariqun could have just increased the number of pearings and arranged them in such a way that they would get constant waves of new soldiers over the years.

Basically, they reproduced like rabbits, but in an organized fashion.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 12 décembre 2013 - 09:19 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Then why didn't they continue fighting the Imperium after the war? Why weren't they able to protect the Riviani when their entire continent conquering army was now concentrated in a much smaller area?

There was really only one point in the New Exalted Marches where the Qunari were able to launch a counter offensive and regain the momentum and it was brief.

Tales of Destruction of Thedas even describes the fighting and why it went in the Chantry's favor.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 décembre 2013 - 09:22 .

[CDTheBookMan]

Isn't it great how a Savior with the Maker on her side stopped the Imperium---except in Tevinter?

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Considering the fact that even while being pushed back that they were able to continuesly launch offensives. Obviously they had troops to spare from their defensive actions, ergo they were not suffering terrible loses.

I think that a war of 150 years (correct me if I'm wrong ) would cause a lot of casualties for both sides. I think that the secret of the qunari is their selective breeding program. The Ariqun could have just increased the number of pearings and arranged them in such a way that they would get constant waves of new soldiers over the years.

Basically, they reproduced like rabbits, but in an organized fashion.

Of course the Qunari suffered loses. They were at war after all. But the loses were never catastrophic, barring the naval battle with the felliscima armada perhaps. And the Qunari were outnumbered heavily, so I don't think they were "breeding like rabbits" as you say, since that would indicate that the Qunari had the numbers advantage.

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Considering the fact that even while being pushed back that they were able to continuesly launch offensives. Obviously they had troops to spare from their defensive actions, ergo they were not suffering terrible loses.

I think that a war of 150 years (correct me if I'm wrong ) would cause a lot of casualties for both sides. I think that the secret of the qunari is their selective breeding program. The Ariqun could have just increased the number of pearings and arranged them in such a way that they would get constant waves of new soldiers over the years.

Basically, they reproduced like rabbits, but in an organized fashion.

Of course the Qunari suffered loses. They were at war after all. But the loses were never catastrophic, barring the naval battle with the felliscima armada perhaps. And the Qunari were outnumbered heavily, so I don't think they were "breeding like rabbits" as you say, since that would indicate that the Qunari had the numbers advantage.

Let me be more clear. Unlike the humans, that would have kids in an non-organized manner, the Ariqun could organize large groups to mate in the same period. That way, they would have a constant influx of babies that might be suited for being members of The Arishok. That way, they could ensure their soldiers necessety for the next generation.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 12 décembre 2013 - 09:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then why didn't they continue fighting the Imperium after the war? Why weren't they able to protect the Riviani when their entire continent conquering army was now concentrated in a much smaller area?

There was really only one point in the New Exalted Marches where the Qunari were able to launch a counter offensive and regain the momentum and it was brief.

Tales of Destruction of Thedas even describes the fighting and why it went in the Chantry's favor.

They DID continue to fight Tevinter...
And the Qunari launched two massive counter offensives, while being pushed back. One time they retook Antiva (or most of it), the other time they attempted to cut off the supply lines to the Thedosian army in the Free Marches. They took and held Kirkwall, well behind enemy lines for 4 years.
Their "continent conquering army" had never actually faced an entire continents combined armies before, that is why their performance changed. Previously when the QUnari had pushed that deep into mainland Thedas, the Qunari had faced an unprepared and disorganized enemy. Naturally ocne this nummerically superior enemy gets organized they are going to push back. And they were pushed back, and no matter how much you are able to give as good as you get, if you get pushed back into the sea, and the enemy is ready for you, then you aren't gonna get back on land any time soon.
And that very same codex entry, also says that the loses the Qunari did suffer, never seemed to bother them. Which of course means that they weren't terrible. The performance of the Qunari soldiers never dropped. They were simply losing the logistical aspect of the war, not the martial.

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Considering the fact that even while being pushed back that they were able to continuesly launch offensives. Obviously they had troops to spare from their defensive actions, ergo they were not suffering terrible loses.

I think that a war of 150 years (correct me if I'm wrong ) would cause a lot of casualties for both sides. I think that the secret of the qunari is their selective breeding program. The Ariqun could have just increased the number of pearings and arranged them in such a way that they would get constant waves of new soldiers over the years.

Basically, they reproduced like rabbits, but in an organized fashion.

Of course the Qunari suffered loses. They were at war after all. But the loses were never catastrophic, barring the naval battle with the felliscima armada perhaps. And the Qunari were outnumbered heavily, so I don't think they were "breeding like rabbits" as you say, since that would indicate that the Qunari had the numbers advantage.

Let me be more clear. Unlike the humans, that would have kids in an non-organized manner, the Ariqun could organize large groups to mate in the same period. That way, they would have a constant influx of babies that might be suited for being members of The Arishok. That way, they could ensure their soldiers necessety for the next generation.

Yeah, but then again the Qunari are also extremely dependant on their warriors being born. The humans are just gonna conscript some more peasants for their armies, whereas the Qunari are not. Only the Karashoks (soldiers) are part of the Antaam (army), and the very idea of conscription would be alien to the Qunari.

[Vulpe]

 Of course they are, but I think you can agree that a war with the whole of Thedas can't be compared with the fights they are currently having with Tevinter. They should have needed to increase the baby production to compensate the bigger losses, so there would have been more pairings than in the present .

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

 Of course they are, but I think you can agree that a war with the whole of Thedas can't be compared with the fights they are currently having with Tevinter. They should have needed to increase the baby production to compensate the bigger losses, so there would have been more pairings than in the present .

Oh I am sure that the Qunari crank it up a notch or two a few generations prior to any wars they plan to participate in. However, it is not a very efficient way to replenish loses. If you have to wait 12 years (the amount of time a Qunari spent in general education, before being assigned his role) for a replacement to a lost soldier, then you cannot afford to lose more than a handful at a time. Whereas the humans could technically lose entire armies at a time, since they would just conscript more to refill the ranks.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They DID continue to fight Tevinter...
And the Qunari launched two massive counter offensives, while being pushed back. One time they retook Antiva (or most of it), the other time they attempted to cut off the supply lines to the Thedosian army in the Free Marches. They took and held Kirkwall, well behind enemy lines for 4 years.
Their "continent conquering army" had never actually faced an entire continents combined armies before, that is why their performance changed. Previously when the QUnari had pushed that deep into mainland Thedas, the Qunari had faced an unprepared and disorganized enemy. Naturally ocne this nummerically superior enemy gets organized they are going to push back. And they were pushed back, and no matter how much you are able to give as good as you get, if you get pushed back into the sea, and the enemy is ready for you, then you aren't gonna get back on land any time soon.
And that very same codex entry, also says that the loses the Qunari did suffer, never seemed to bother them. Which of course means that they weren't terrible. The performance of the Qunari soldiers never dropped. They were simply losing the logistical aspect of the war, not the martial.

After the Llomerryn Accords the Qunari withdrew from Tevinter and surrendered Seheron. There was 70 years of peace before the Qunari returned. And since then, they've not made any major inroads on the mainland. Either because they are unwilling to commit the necessary recources to do so or because they can't. Since the Qunari Wars ended, the Qunari have clearly had their ability to prosecute a major invasion severely hindered.

They the Qunari retaking most of Antiva and attacking the Free Marches happened mostly around the same time and both endevours were ultimately either brief or futile. The codex doesn't say that the losses never bothered them, it says that it wasn't what prompted the ceasefire.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 décembre 2013 - 11:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
After the Llomerryn Accords the Qunari withdrew from Tevinter and surrendered Seheron. There was 70 years of peace before the Qunari returned. And since then, they've not made any major inroads on the mainland. Either because they are unwilling to commit the necessary recources to do so or because they can't. Since the Qunari Wars ended, the Qunari have clearly had their ability to prosecute a major invasion severely hindered.

They the Qunari retaking most of Antiva and attacking the Free Marches happened mostly around the same time and both endevours were ultimately either brief or futile. The codex doesn't say that the losses never bothered them, it says that it wasn't what prompted the ceasefire.

You don't need to suffer terrible loses to have your invasion hindered. If the enemy hold the more advantageous defensive posistion, if your supply lines are being harassed and several hundred others can be the reason.
The mere fact that the Qunari were able to keep the war going for over a century, and given their way of refilling their ranks, should be more than enough to show you that the Qunari didn't suffer terrible loses. I hoenstly cannot be bothered with keep trying to explain strategically and tactically why that is so.
In the end we know that it was NOT their lsoes the moved them to pursue a peace, but the suffering of the civilians. That should also tell you, that the Qunari were more than willing and capable of continuing the war. But as I said, I can't be bothered..

[grumpymooselion]

TK514 wrote...

I suspect that, if not for the Qunari, the rest of Thedas would be in trouble.

I've suspected this for awhile myself.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Probably not that much trouble. At least compared to the trouble they were in the old days. My guess is that only the weakest neighbors, like individual Marcher states, would ever actually be in legitimate danger of being annexed by the Imperium or incorporated into Tevinter territory on any long term basis.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 décembre 2013 - 02:23 .

[Vulpe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Probably not that much trouble. At least compared to the trouble they were in the old days. My guess is that only the weakest neighbors, like individual Marcher states, would ever actually be in legitimate danger of being annexed by the Imperium or incorporated into Tevinter territory on any long term basis.

The Marches unite when their independance is in danger. Don't underestimate the little ones.If Tevinter attacks them they'll just unite and scream to their approaching army "Here we stand !" and then give them some beating. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Probably not that much trouble. At least compared to the trouble they were in the old days. My guess is that only the weakest neighbors, like individual Marcher states, would ever actually be in legitimate danger of being annexed by the Imperium or incorporated into Tevinter territory on any long term basis.

Honestly compared to the Armies the Imperium used to field back in their Heyday? They wouldn't even be a distant  second. When you have the resources to even minorly occupy 90% of Thedas at the sametime for centuries clearly you have a massive military force.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

CDTheBookMan wrote...

Isn't it great how a Savior with the Maker on her side stopped the Imperium---except in Tevinter?

It's actually a little funny, for people who think the Maker is real and Andraste really was his chosen one that means that even with a century long Blight and the full backing of God Tevinter couldn't be taken.


The next game better take place in Minrathous because I want to see the ancient seat of Tevinter. I want to see the rock that has weathered everything the world has to throw at it and its never fallen. I have a nerd crush on that city.

[HiroVoid]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

CDTheBookMan wrote...

Isn't it great how a Savior with the Maker on her side stopped the Imperium---except in Tevinter?

It's actually a little funny, for people who think the Maker is real and Andraste really was his chosen one that means that even with a century long Blight and the full backing of God Tevinter couldn't be taken.


The next game better take place in Minrathous because I want to see the ancient seat of Tevinter. I want to see the rock that has weathered everything the world has to throw at it and its never fallen. I have a nerd crush on that city.

It could be argued they succeeded in conquering Tevinter since a large population of Tevinter now seem to be Andrastians.  They simply conquered their hearts and minds.

[DRTJR]

Tevinter still plays by it's own rules, with their own Divine. And the Templar order get's its famous sword insignia from the Tevinter Archon who with mercy ended Andraste's pain.

[Master Warder Z_]

HiroVoid wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

CDTheBookMan wrote...

Isn't it great how a Savior with the Maker on her side stopped the Imperium---except in Tevinter?

It's actually a little funny, for people who think the Maker is real and Andraste really was his chosen one that means that even with a century long Blight and the full backing of God Tevinter couldn't be taken.


The next game better take place in Minrathous because I want to see the ancient seat of Tevinter. I want to see the rock that has weathered everything the world has to throw at it and its never fallen. I have a nerd crush on that city.

It could be argued they succeeded in conquering Tevinter since a large population of Tevinter now seem to be Andrastians.  They simply conquered their hearts and minds.

And 99% of their territory.

 

[grumpymooselion]

Master Warder Z wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

CDTheBookMan wrote...

Isn't it great how a Savior with the Maker on her side stopped the Imperium---except in Tevinter?

It's actually a little funny, for people who think the Maker is real and Andraste really was his chosen one that means that even with a century long Blight and the full backing of God Tevinter couldn't be taken.


The next game better take place in Minrathous because I want to see the ancient seat of Tevinter. I want to see the rock that has weathered everything the world has to throw at it and its never fallen. I have a nerd crush on that city.

It could be argued they succeeded in conquering Tevinter since a large population of Tevinter now seem to be Andrastians.  They simply conquered their hearts and minds.

And 99% of their territory.

 

A quick look at a map of the world suggests otherwise. The Tevinter Imperium is still very large. Partially conquered, yes, but 1% left? That's just not a realitic number based on how much land the map considers still belonging to the Imperium.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:14 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Janan Pacha wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

CDTheBookMan wrote...

Isn't it great how a Savior with the Maker on her side stopped the Imperium---except in Tevinter?

It's actually a little funny, for people who think the Maker is real and Andraste really was his chosen one that means that even with a century long Blight and the full backing of God Tevinter couldn't be taken.


The next game better take place in Minrathous because I want to see the ancient seat of Tevinter. I want to see the rock that has weathered everything the world has to throw at it and its never fallen. I have a nerd crush on that city.

It could be argued they succeeded in conquering Tevinter since a large population of Tevinter now seem to be Andrastians.  They simply conquered their hearts and minds.

And 99% of their territory.

 

A quick look at a map of the world suggests otherwise. The Tevinter Imperium is still very large. Partially conquered, yes, but 1% left? That's just not a realitic number based on how much landi the map considers still considered belonging to the Imperium.

Considering nearly all of Thedas from Orlais to the Imperium was once their backyard and now they are reduced to that little splotch of land.

I think they did lose just about EVERYTHING short of the Imperium it self.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, the Anderfels, the area that would later become Antiva, Rivain and most of the Free Marches didn't get conquered by the barbarians. So when Fenris says that only the southeren part of the Tevinter Imperium ever fell, it would seem he is correct.