160 réponses à ce sujet

[Inprea]

They are several things about the Dragon Age Universe that have me curious about the actual mechanics behind them and one of them is blood magic. One of the big things I wonder is how fresh does the blood need to be in order to be usable and what can be do to preserve it? If we are to assume that blood can be stored and perhaps even distilled into a more concentrated form then your average blood mage is very wasteful indeed. Rather then bleeding a single slave dry and depriving yourself of a slave why not just take a little blood from several slaves or even volunteers?

Now this is assuming the blood can be stored. The mage could even collect blood over several months and prepare a large reserve. Then whenever the mage needed to cast a very large spell they could simply make use of these reserves rather then doing drastic harm to their servants or having to waste money on lyrium which could be used elsewhere. Such as in the construction of magic items, making guardians like in the circle tower or perhaps even research to duplicate Fenris's markings.

Now to anyone who thinks there would be something wrong with duplicating such markings let me ask you this. Why not just drug the person out of their mind so that they don't feel the pain of the procedure? I speculate, which I admit holds little ground, that his master didn't numb him simply because he wanted to wipe away his memories to produce a more loyal servant.

Would anyone else like to conduct to some experiments to see how blood might be stored as a viable source of magic energy or perhaps store the energy itself? When a mage creates a glyph upon the ground the magic is temporarily stored after all or at least it's doing a far slower burn then spells such as fire ball. Perhaps a permanent glyph could be developed to store energies that could be recovered later.

Such large reserves could be very handy especially for doing like things such as holding off a storm that threatens to destroy your lands or casting a massive protection spells to protect crops from an overly harsh sun.

[sandalisthemaker]

Inprea wrote...
Rather then bleeding a single slave dry and depriving yourself of a slave why not just take a little blood from several slaves or even volunteers?

Now this is assuming the blood can be stored. The mage could even collect blood over several months and prepare a large reserve. Then whenever the mage needed to cast a very large spell they could simply make use of these reserves rather then doing drastic harm to their servants 

The more violenty and/or painfully the blood is shed, the more powerful the spell will be.  So, politely asking a blood-slave if they can take a sample, and carefully making a tiny cut would be less helpful than suddenly and unexpectedly slashing said blood-slave's arm.  
Slashing their throat or decapitating them in one fell swoop would presumably grant even more power.

[HiroVoid]

Jowan's magic in DA:O required Isolde's life. It wasn't enough just to go around the knights and village to get the required amount of blood. In other words, there's more to blood magic than just....'this much blood is needed to cast spell'.

[Senya]

If I understand lore correctly, it's not necessarily blood that provides most of the power behind the spell, but the life force and the suffering involved, though I'm sure the blood itself is a component or one of the sources of power in the spell. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Treacherous J Slither]

It's the life energy that the blood holds that grants the power. Once it's been stored or whatever it loses a certain level of potency i'm assuming.

Either that or it's a major oversight of the loremasters because they wanted blood magic to be dark and negative.

What bothers me the most about blood magic in-game is how I can only drain blood from my teammates to replenish myself. Aside from that AOA blood drain move I mean. The one with the waaay too long cool down time. Taking blood from others should be the main attack of a blood mage. That way you can destroy your enemy and heal yourself in one move. Maybe the developers felt as if this would make your character too powerful but that's the point isn't it? The power of blood magic is the lure.

Honestly I don't see why any mage would NOT be a blood mage. The benefits far outweigh the risks seeing as how the only real risk is being found out and possibly killed by Templars. Thinking about it though, that's not much of a risk either. Jowan was a weak mage and yet he cleared a room in one move. A stronger mage should wipe the floor with whatever Templars are set against them.

[TeamLexana]

HiroVoid wrote...

Jowan's magic in DA:O required Isolde's life. It wasn't enough just to go around the knights and village to get the required amount of blood. In other words, there's more to blood magic than just....'this much blood is needed to cast spell'.

That's how I understood it worked.

[Inprea]

HiroVoid wrote...

Jowan's magic in DA:O required Isolde's life. It wasn't enough just to go around the knights and village to get the required amount of blood. In other words, there's more to blood magic than just....'this much blood is needed to cast spell'.

I get what you're saying but I'm not certain if that's the truth of the situation. Are you certain that wasn't the writers trying to force a moral situation on us whenever there is an incredibly simple alternative solution?

After all. Even if you have the chunk of lyrium from Orzimmar you don't have the ability to say. "No need. I've got all the lyrium we need right here and three stacks of lyrium dust in the event we need a little extra." So in the same iight the Warden can't say. "Um why don't just divide the drain up among oh 20 people?"

[sandalisthemaker]

JSlither wrote...


Honestly I don't see why any mage would NOT be a blood mage. The benefits far outweigh the risks seeing as how the only real risk is being found out and possibly killed by Templars.

Power corrupts, plus using blood magic makes a mage even more suseptable to demonic possesion than regular mages.

[DRTJR]

To draw a comparison with another game, In Fire Emblem 7 the bad guy is trying to fuel a portal with life energy or Quintessence. Some people just have a lot more than others, the protagonist's dad is loaded with Quintessence where as thousands nameless mooks would equal him. I always took it that if you could capture and use Sten or Hawke it would be like using hundreds of Elven slaves. So the blood is caring the Quintessence rather than being the Quintessence.

[Inprea]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Rather then bleeding a single slave dry and depriving yourself of a slave why not just take a little blood from several slaves or even volunteers?

Now this is assuming the blood can be stored. The mage could even collect blood over several months and prepare a large reserve. Then whenever the mage needed to cast a very large spell they could simply make use of these reserves rather then doing drastic harm to their servants 

The more violenty and/or painfully the blood is shed, the more powerful the spell will be.  So, politely asking a blood-slave if they can take a sample, and carefully making a tiny cut would be less helpful than suddenly and unexpectedly slashing said blood-slave's arm.  
Slashing their throat or decapitating them in one fell swoop would presumably grant even more power.

Could you provide a link to that information? I don't recall seeing anything, in game at least, that indicates that suffering increased the potency of the blood. Even if it did increase the potency though volume could make up for that.

[sandalisthemaker]

Inprea wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Rather then bleeding a single slave dry and depriving yourself of a slave why not just take a little blood from several slaves or even volunteers?

Now this is assuming the blood can be stored. The mage could even collect blood over several months and prepare a large reserve. Then whenever the mage needed to cast a very large spell they could simply make use of these reserves rather then doing drastic harm to their servants 

The more violenty and/or painfully the blood is shed, the more powerful the spell will be.  So, politely asking a blood-slave if they can take a sample, and carefully making a tiny cut would be less helpful than suddenly and unexpectedly slashing said blood-slave's arm.  
Slashing their throat or decapitating them in one fell swoop would presumably grant even more power.

Could you provide a link to that information? I don't recall seeing anything, in game at least, that indicates that suffering increased the potency of the blood. Even if it did increase the potency though volume could make up for that.

The book they recently released:  The World of Thedas,  explains it in its blood magic section. 

It states that more violent shedding of blood leads to more powerful results, and that using blood magic makes a mage even more suseptable to demonic possession than normal. 

This is why I don't buy into the idea that blood magic is "just a tool."

There is something inherrently evil and corrupting about it.

[DRTJR]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inprea wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Rather then bleeding a single slave dry and depriving yourself of a slave why not just take a little blood from several slaves or even volunteers?

Now this is assuming the blood can be stored. The mage could even collect blood over several months and prepare a large reserve. Then whenever the mage needed to cast a very large spell they could simply make use of these reserves rather then doing drastic harm to their servants 

The more violenty and/or painfully the blood is shed, the more powerful the spell will be.  So, politely asking a blood-slave if they can take a sample, and carefully making a tiny cut would be less helpful than suddenly and unexpectedly slashing said blood-slave's arm.  
Slashing their throat or decapitating them in one fell swoop would presumably grant even more power.

Could you provide a link to that information? I don't recall seeing anything, in game at least, that indicates that suffering increased the potency of the blood. Even if it did increase the potency though volume could make up for that.

The book they recently released:  The World of Thedas,  explains it in its blood magic section. 

It states that more violent shedding of blood leads to more powerful results, and that using blood magic makes a mage even more suseptable to demonic possession than normal. 

This is why I don't buy into the idea that blood magic is "just a tool."

There is something inherrently evil and corrupting about it.

Those empathic elements to blood magic where never even implied in the games. It could be a situation where the more adrenaline in the blood the stronger the magic is, so the fear caused by getting the blood pulled suddenly from your body pumps far more adrenaline in than if you know it's coming which would follow a certain kind of logic.

[Inprea]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inprea wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Rather then bleeding a single slave dry and depriving yourself of a slave why not just take a little blood from several slaves or even volunteers?

Now this is assuming the blood can be stored. The mage could even collect blood over several months and prepare a large reserve. Then whenever the mage needed to cast a very large spell they could simply make use of these reserves rather then doing drastic harm to their servants 

The more violenty and/or painfully the blood is shed, the more powerful the spell will be.  So, politely asking a blood-slave if they can take a sample, and carefully making a tiny cut would be less helpful than suddenly and unexpectedly slashing said blood-slave's arm.  
Slashing their throat or decapitating them in one fell swoop would presumably grant even more power.

Could you provide a link to that information? I don't recall seeing anything, in game at least, that indicates that suffering increased the potency of the blood. Even if it did increase the potency though volume could make up for that.

The book they recently released:  The World of Thedas,  explains it in its blood magic section. 

It states that more violent shedding of blood leads to more powerful results, and that using blood magic makes a mage even more suseptable to demonic possession than normal. 

This is why I don't buy into the idea that blood magic is "just a tool."

There is something inherrently evil and corrupting about it.

In that case how much more potent? After all we're not talking about a desperate situation that calls for power right away whenever one is building up a reserve. Would 20 volunteers be enough to have the same affect as one person's death?

[thats1evildude]

You do need to spill blood to use blood magic, but as sandalisthemaker indicated, the power comes from the pain of spilling said blood.

[Jestina]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

JSlither wrote...
Honestly I don't see why any mage would NOT be a blood mage. The benefits far outweigh the risks seeing as how the only real risk is being found out and possibly killed by Templars.

Power corrupts, plus using blood magic makes a mage even more suseptable to demonic possesion than regular mages.

The risk is addiction and eventually total corruption. Skimming over the history of Thedas, blood magic practice appears to be responsible for just about every major catastrophe.

And this from the codex....
"Just as treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world."

Be neat if something like that were implemented in the game. Say...a certain percentage chance of hostile demons showing up if you cast blood magic.

[sandalisthemaker]

Inprea wrote...


In that case how much more potent? After all we're not talking about a desperate situation that calls for power right away whenever one is building up a reserve. Would 20 volunteers be enough to have the same affect as one person's death?

Not sure. Those details are not stated. But killing a person provides much more power than simply harming them. 

[Afro_Explosion]

Since blood magic is made stronger by pain, what if a person cant feel pain does their blood not work

[Inprea]

thats1evildude wrote...

You do need to spill blood to use blood magic, but as sandalisthemaker indicated, the power comes from the pain of spilling said blood.

Then later he mentions that the greater the pain and violence the more powerful the results. However, how much more powerful are these results and how much blood peacefully obtained would it take to match these results? Would you need three times as much? Perhaps five or ten times as much would get the same results without the need to actually kill someone.

Even if pain and violence increases the potency that doesn't mean one couldn't spread out the burden to obtain the same results without killing someone. In times those people would recover and could be used against rather then wasting money on expensive lyrium. Unless the increase in potency is absolutely overwhelming and in that case they'd need to explain why a blood mage couldn't flatten an entire city after sacrificing a dozen or so slaves.

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inprea wrote...


In
that case how much more potent? After all we're not talking about a
desperate situation that calls for power right away whenever one is
building up a reserve. Would 20 volunteers be enough to have the same
affect as one person's death?

Not sure. Those details are not stated. But killing a person provides much more power than simply harming them. 

A certain amount of blood may become more potent if the person suffers or dies but that potency can be made up with volume if you're not looking for an instant bang. In the long term careful harvesting from several people would seem to have greater long term benefits.

Modifié par Inprea, 09 décembre 2013 - 03:21 .

[brushyourteeth]

One would still have the problem of said blood mage being a target for sudden possession.

Just thought it worth noting.

[sandalisthemaker]

Inprea wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

You do need to spill blood to use blood magic, but as sandalisthemaker indicated, the power comes from the pain of spilling said blood.

Even if pain and violence increases the potency that doesn't mean one couldn't spread out the burden to obtain the same results without killing someone. In times those people would recover and could be used against rather then wasting money on expensive lyrium. 

This is what Tevinter magisters do with their elven slaves.
They cut them up to test their spells, or to secretly cast spells on other magisters, or to magically protect themselves from other magisters. Then the slave heals. Then they get cut up again. 
There is an exerpt in World of Thedas where an elf leaving Tevinter describes that he was cut repeatedly by his master.

[Inprea]

sandalisthemaker wrote...
This is what Tevinter magisters do with their elven slaves.
They cut them up to test their spells, or to secretly cast spells on other magisters, or to magically protect themselves from other magisters. Then the slave heals. Then they get cut up again. 
There is an exerpt in World of Thedas where an elf leaving Tevinter describes that he was cut repeatedly by his master.

It's good to know they can at least be economical whenever it comes to their abuses rather then killing the slave every time. I still wonder about long term storage of the blood of course. Now I don't mean simply dumping it into a jug or the sort.

I wonder if a meat doll could be developed like the unravaler. Except of course it would be entirely immobile and its only purpose would be to set there and store blood for future use perhaps using a bit of it to survive. Plus early versions should be limited in size and contained. Something small enough to be flash fried with a fire blast if it began to move or grow.

Modifié par Inprea, 09 décembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[brushyourteeth]

Inprea wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

You do need to spill blood to use blood magic, but as sandalisthemaker indicated, the power comes from the pain of spilling said blood.

Then later he mentions that the greater the pain and violence the more powerful the results. However, how much more powerful are these results and how much blood peacefully obtained would it take to match these results? Would you need three times as much? Perhaps five or ten times as much would get the same results without the need to actually kill someone.

Even if pain and violence increases the potency that doesn't mean one couldn't spread out the burden to obtain the same results without killing someone. In times those people would recover and could be used against rather then wasting money on expensive lyrium. Unless the increase in potency is absolutely overwhelming and in that case they'd need to explain why a blood mage couldn't flatten an entire city after sacrificing a dozen or so slaves.

If you're implying that lyrium is a more valuable commodity than the safety and free will of living people, then that's.... that's beyond horrible.

I would only find that to be acceptable under the most dire of circumstances, and these people would have to be volunteers. Safeties would have to be put in place in case of the acting mage's possession....

Overall, not a great idea IMO.

[sandalisthemaker]

Inprea wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
This is what Tevinter magisters do with their elven slaves.
They cut them up to test their spells, or to secretly cast spells on other magisters, or to magically protect themselves from other magisters. Then the slave heals. Then they get cut up again. 
There is an exerpt in World of Thedas where an elf leaving Tevinter describes that he was cut repeatedly by his master.

It's good to know they can at least be economical whenever it comes to their abuses rather then killing the slave every time. I still wonder about long term storage of the blood of course. Now I don't mean simply dumping it into a jug or the sort.

I wonder if a meat doll could be developed like the unravaler. Except of course it would be entirely immobile and its only purpose would be to set there and store blood for future use perhaps using a bit of it to survive. Plus early versions should be limited in size and contained. Something small enough to be flash fried with a fire blast if it began to move or grow.

I really don't think they store blood long term. At least I've never heard it mentioned anywhere. Except phylacteries, but those are small vials, and I think that magic is involved in the creation and storage of phylacteries because blood eventually putrifies unless frozen. The chambers where phylacteries are kept are never described as being cold.

[Treacherous J Slither]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

JSlither wrote...


Honestly I don't see why any mage would NOT be a blood mage. The benefits far outweigh the risks seeing as how the only real risk is being found out and possibly killed by Templars.

Power corrupts, plus using blood magic makes a mage even more suseptable to demonic possesion than regular mages.

All power corrupts. Sword master, high ranking officer, noble, crime lord, king, mage whatever. Blood magic is no different. A demon cannot outright possess someone. You have to let them in. Either knowingly like Anders or by being tricked. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Blood magic is not the Force. Blood mages are not Psykers.

[sandalisthemaker]

JSlither wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

JSlither wrote...


Honestly I don't see why any mage would NOT be a blood mage. The benefits far outweigh the risks seeing as how the only real risk is being found out and possibly killed by Templars.

Power corrupts, plus using blood magic makes a mage even more suseptable to demonic possesion than regular mages.

All power corrupts. Sword master, high ranking officer, noble, crime lord, king, mage whatever. Blood magic is no different. A demon cannot outright possess someone. You have to let them in. Either knowingly like Anders or by being tricked. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Blood magic is not the Force. Blood mages are not Psykers.

I'm just going by the book.