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[thats1evildude]

The image is of a Buddhist monk immolating himself in 1963 to protest persecution of Buddhists by the South Vietnamese government.

[Jestina]

JSlither wrote...
I understand what the Tevinters have done. I've played the game too. Nowhere however is there any evidence that suggests blood magic made these people do what they have done. They made these decisions themselves.

Whatever. You just keep on debating against the game lore. 

"Common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons"

[DRTJR]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

DRTJR wrote...
The Qunari
could be so trained that they don't feel pain thus Blood magic isn't as
effective. Although most of the powerful Magisters where busy rebuilding after
the first blight to fight a rebellion

As much as I'd like to think that Qunari are mindless automatons, I'm pretty sure they feel pain.

I am shure they would/do but you and I could in theory train our body to not feel pain like these guys.

If they can do it I'm sure the Qunari can do it. 

That image is fascinating. Do you have any details on it?

They're Tibetan Monks. They Immolate themselves and sit there burning to protest Chinese policies.http://www.economist.com/blogs/analects/2012/12/self-immolation-tibet

[TEWR]

Jestina wrote...

JSlither wrote...
I understand what the Tevinters have done. I've played the game too. Nowhere however is there any evidence that suggests blood magic made these people do what they have done. They made these decisions themselves.

Whatever. You just keep on debating against the game lore. 

"Common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons"

Merrill did neither of those things in 7 years, so... yeah. She repeatedly cites them all as ghastly, and if she did those things it would be wildly out of character for her.

Also, phylacteries are blood magic. The Joining is blood magic. Reavers are blood magic.

So yeah, three instances of using blood magic with good intentions.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 décembre 2013 - 04:52 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

Jestina wrote...

JSlither wrote...
I understand what the Tevinters have done. I've played the game too. Nowhere however is there any evidence that suggests blood magic made these people do what they have done. They made these decisions themselves.

Whatever. You just keep on debating against the game lore. 

"Common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons"

What you quoted was written by a Dragon Age character who could be biased against blood magic or even magic itself. Now if there was actual in-game info like what's in the blood magic description in your skill list then I would have to agree with you. But there isn't.

[Jestina]

JSlither wrote...
What you quoted was written by a Dragon Age character who could be biased against blood magic or even magic itself. Now if there was actual in-game info like what's in the blood magic description in your skill list then I would have to agree with you. But there isn't.

That's game lore, The biased version is the Chantry which claim blood magic originated from the elves.

Modifié par Jestina, 09 décembre 2013 - 05:12 .

[DRTJR]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jestina wrote...

JSlither wrote...
I understand what the Tevinters have done. I've played the game too. Nowhere however is there any evidence that suggests blood magic made these people do what they have done. They made these decisions themselves.

Whatever. You just keep on debating against the game lore. 

"Common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons"

Merrill did neither of those things in 7 years, so... yeah. She repeatedly cites them all as ghastly, and if she did those things it would be wildly out of character for her.

Although Quentin was crazier than a bag full of cats, his reaserch provieds a valuable medical aplication to Blood magic, attaching limbs in the case of them being either absent from birth or lobbed off by a Qunari.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Think about this:

Bandits are cutting people down in dark alleys and back roads all across Thedas and yet, daggers are not outlawed anywhere. The bandits themselves are held accountable for their actions. Not the tools they've used to commit their deeds. Why should it be any different for blood mages?

[Dayze]

JSlither wrote...

Inprea wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
This is what Tevinter magisters do with their elven slaves.
They cut them up to test their spells, or to secretly cast spells on other magisters, or to magically protect themselves from other magisters. Then the slave heals. Then they get cut up again. 
There is an exerpt in World of Thedas where an elf leaving Tevinter describes that he was cut repeatedly by his master.

It's good to know they can at least be economical whenever it comes to their abuses rather then killing the slave every time. I still wonder about long term storage of the blood of course. Now I don't mean simply dumping it into a jug or the sort.

I wonder if a meat doll could be developed like the unravaler. Except of course it would be entirely immobile and its only purpose would be to set there and store blood for future use perhaps using a bit of it to survive. Plus early versions should be limited in size and contained. Something small enough to be flash fried with a fire blast if it began to move or grow.

^This is actually a terrific idea. A virtually never ending source of blood magic fuel. Flesh golems have incredibly high health and even if the blood mage went overboard and killed the thing, there's always that resurrection spell from the Spirit school...

Now that I think about, how the **** did Tevinter lose to Andraste? How are the Qunari stalemating them? They should still be the most powerful force on Thedas. Who can stand against a country full of immoral blood mages?

Works under the assumption these big acts of blood magic aren't only last recourse kind of deals, going to the Maker's city got Darkspawn......not saying sinking the city of elves gave Darkspawn but it might have torn the veil releasing a butt load of demons and who knows what else.  Possibly long term damage to the mages who do them.

And in a empire of selfish bastards you have to come up with a real good reason to risk a full on demonic invasion on top of whatever problem they already have plus whatever potential physical damage on their bodies doing the spells/magic might do.

[Dayze]

Jestina wrote...

JSlither wrote...
What you quoted was written by a Dragon Age character who could be biased against blood magic or even magic itself. Now if there was actual in-game info like what's in the blood magic description in your skill list then I would have to agree with you. But there isn't.

That's game lore dummy, The biased version is the Chantry which claim blood magic originated from the elves.

Isn't most of the "game lore" written from the perspective of Chantry monks or some other person?

Most of its straight out "facts" as told by the developers; its part of how they keep everything ambigious and makes it easier for them to retcon stuff later.

Essentially everything is written down by the perspective of an individual with an at least personal way of seeing the world.  They don't record via cold, machine logic so everything is ultimately somewhat "iffy".

[Jestina]

Dayze wrote...
Isn't most of the "game lore" written from the perspective of Chantry monks or some other person?

It specifies when it's talking about a specific viewpoint. Such as the first blight...it says the Chantry's view is that the Tevinter blood mages were trying to usurp the Maker.

[SgtSteel91]

JSlither wrote...

Think about this:

Bandits are cutting people down in dark alleys and back roads all across Thedas and yet, daggers are not outlawed anywhere. The bandits themselves are held accountable for their actions. Not the tools they've used to commit their deeds. Why should it be any different for blood mages?

Because you can't trun off magic, unless you want to make all mages tranquil.

[DRTJR]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Think about this:

Bandits are cutting people down in dark alleys and back roads all across Thedas and yet, daggers are not outlawed anywhere. The bandits themselves are held accountable for their actions. Not the tools they've used to commit their deeds. Why should it be any different for blood mages?

Because you can't trun off magic, unless you want to make all mages tranquil.

Wait Daggers have off switches? That is amazing!
The Blood Magic issue is a heightened version of the Magic issue in general.

[SgtSteel91]

DRTJR wrote...

Wait Daggers have off switches? That is amazing!

Never heard of switch knives?

[Jestina]

The theme of blood magic throughout has been that it tempts mages with the promise of power, but eventually sucks away their humanity and causes a lot of grief for everyone else. It's kind of like the Dark side of the Force in SW. Of course it's not very well implemented when it comes to the player or player's companions, with a couple of exceptions. Player immunity...just like you could openly cast spells all over in DA2 and no one ever noticed.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Jestina wrote...

JSlither wrote...
What you quoted was written by a Dragon Age character who could be biased against blood magic or even magic itself. Now if there was actual in-game info like what's in the blood magic description in your skill list then I would have to agree with you. But there isn't.

That's game lore dummy, The biased version is the Chantry which claim blood magic originated from the elves.

There was no need to insult me Jestina. I'm not calling you any names am I? Please give me the same respect I am giving you.

What i'm saying in my previous post is that an actual made up character of the Dragon Age universe has sat down and penned something in a book. This character has their ideas about things. Just like the Chantry. What they say is not actual in-game fact concerning a particular topic. It is simply their view of it which can lead to speculation. If there was an actual in-game description of something like what's in the skill list and not someone's possibly biased or misinformed opinion then and only would it be actual in-game fact. Unless what someone says supports in-game info like some blacksmith stating in some book that "fire is hot and swords are sharp".

The blood magic description in Dragon Age 2 doesn't have any mention of corrupting tendencies. It states that people fear blood magic because of it's strength and mind control ability. You also get a health boost for choosing that specialization. The spell descriptions themselves describe what the spells actually do like health drain or puppet mastery. That's it. No mention of creeping madness or demon worship or anything negative.

Actually I think draining health from your allies instead of your enemies is pretty darn negative but I believe that was a game developer decision made in order for the player to not easily run through the game. It doesn't make any sense otherwise. You can either drain blood from the guy that's trying to kill you or drain blood from your best friend that's trying to save you. Which would you choose?

[thats1evildude]

Comparing blood magic to daggers is like comparing a hand grenade to a nuclear bomb, JSlither. The sheer destructive power of blood magic elevates it beyond a simple tool. One blood mage can wreak far greater havoc than any one person with a knife.

And there's the fact there are no really good reasons for using it outside of a very narrow set of circumstances. You said mages need it to defend against templars, but the main reason mages are in danger from templars is because they practiced blood magic.

We ban the use of certain weapons in RL too. Blood magic is really no different.

[sandalisthemaker]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Think about this:

Bandits are cutting people down in dark alleys and back roads all across Thedas and yet, daggers are not outlawed anywhere. The bandits themselves are held accountable for their actions. Not the tools they've used to commit their deeds. Why should it be any different for blood mages?

Because you can't trun off magic, unless you want to make all mages tranquil.

I never understood why some mages simply...don't use their magic.
You would think that in a world with such a huge stigma against magic, that some mages would hide it. Never use it in public, and just try to live a regular life. The lore states that not all mages are good at magic, and can barely light a candle for instance.

[Jestina]

[quote]sandalisthemaker wrote...
[/quote]
I never understood why some mages simply...don't use their magic.
[/quote]

I'm sure they would if they could control it. Remember Wynne's story? And there was that mess with Connor.

[Treacherous J Slither]

thats1evildude wrote...

Comparing blood magic to daggers is like comparing a hand grenade to a nuclear bomb, JSlither. The sheer destructive power of blood magic elevates it beyond a simple tool. One blood mage can wreak far greater havoc than any one person with a knife.

And there's the fact there are no really good reasons for using it outside of a very narrow set of circumstances. You said mages need it to defend against templars, but the main reason mages are in danger from templars is because they practiced blood magic.

We ban the use of certain weapons in RL too. Blood magic is really no different.

I agree that blood magic is potentially far more dangerous than a knife. However, more people are being harmed by knives than by blood magic every single day in Thedas. Also, knives are far more abundant and harder to control. Yet no one ever blames the knife. It's always the wielder that's held accountable.

Nukes and blood magic are both powerful but nukes only destroy whereas blood magic can have many positive uses like healing the sick and wounded.

A free mage is an apostate. Being an apostate itself is illegal. Being a blood mage is also illegal. The penalty of the former is imprisonment at the Circle. The penalty of the latter is death. A Templar group out to capture a mage  can instead decide to simply kill them. What defense does this apostate have against these Templars? Blood magic. Why should the free mage put themselves at the mercy of these Templars? If you don't want to be killed or taken to the Circle then it's wise to practice blood magic. 

[Fredward]

I didn't know about the suffering = power part. That is interesting. I'm assuming that even blood taken from yourself or a after a polite request to a slave would still have more power than the average spell though, right? Man... Tevinter could be a nasty place for slaves, I can easily imagine some of the more power hungry magisters creating environments of optimal terror for their slaves to live in.

[Inprea]

thats1evildude wrote...

That assumes the mage lived in a community where they were openly accepting of a blood mage, which is not the case in most of Thedas.

And what if the only way to save those people was to kill someone?

If you're refering to my post I have to ask. In what way did the scenarios I give assume the community is openly accepting of blood magic? None of them required the community to be accepting of blood magic only that the mage know blood magic. The mage could have been studying it in secret as part of their medical research. We have seen that blood magic can create books that permenantly increase your stats or spells that augment your health. It can even extend your life span. It is also possible that the mage had been forced to let people die before due to a lack of power. After the ran out of lyrium in the past they decided it would be a good idea to have an emergency option.

I don't see why you're asking what if the only way to save those people was to kill someone either. Simple. Instead of killing someone spread the burden out among as many people as you possibly can to avoid killing someone. If there aren't enough people to share the burden then you look for a volunteer. If there is no one willing to die to combat the fire or heal the burn victims then they die unless one of them is willing to die in order to save the others and end his/her pain.

[SgtSteel91]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

I never understood why some mages simply...don't use their magic.
You would think that in a world with such a huge stigma against magic, that some mages would hide it. Never use it in public, and just try to live a regular life. The lore states that not all mages are good at magic, and can barely light a candle for instance.

Maybe it can work, but then you'll have cases like Connor, whose parents tried to hide the fact he was a mage and he unintentionally caused a big problem in Redcliff.

[Jaulen]

Jestina wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

I never understood why some mages simply...don't use their magic.

I'm sure they would if they could control it. Remember Wynne's story? And there was that mess with Connor.

In DA2, during Prime Suspect/All That Remains.....if you let the mage guy go, then find him in Dark Town, he'll go with you to find your mother, you can convince him to work with you against Quentin...then confront him again in Dark Town afterwards (let Fenris have his way with him) and again let him live. He send you a letter that he decided to 'give up magic' and was cleaning out his stash of items and sends you something.

Never knew until that point that a mage could decide to 'give up magic' wonder what it entails...other than not studying/practicing. And if you don't practice, are you still susceptible to demonic possession?

Modifié par Jaulen, 09 décembre 2013 - 05:56 .

[Ieldra]

Jestina wrote...
The theme of blood magic throughout has been that it tempts mages with the promise of power, but eventually sucks away their humanity and causes a lot of grief for everyone else. It's kind of like the Dark side of the Force in SW. Of course it's not very well implemented when it comes to the player or player's companions, with a couple of exceptions. Player immunity...just like you could openly cast spells all over in DA2 and no one ever noticed.

It does neither of that. It is a powerful tool and like any such tool, it does attract the corruptible, but in itself it doesn't do anything to its users that other kinds of power don't also do. 

The "Common wisdom" you quoted is in-world common wisdom, which is as biased as, say, the claim that using drugs makes you a criminal in our own culture.