160 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

Inprea wrote...

If you're refering to my post I have to ask. In what way did the scenarios I give assume the community is openly accepting of blood magic? None of them required the community to be accepting of blood magic only that the mage know blood magic. The mage could have been studying it in secret as part of their medical research. We have seen that blood magic can create books that permenantly increase your stats or spells that augment your health. It can even extend your life span. It is also possible that the mage had been forced to let people die before due to a lack of power.

I'm saying that people have to be accepting of blood magic to let you use it. The people of Thedas are generally mistrusting of blood magic, and for good reason. They've been told their whole lives to fear it and there are more than enough examples of the abuses of blood magic to back that up.

In the scenario you mentioned, the people you want to lend a bit of their life force to heal the ten injured fire victims are as likely to immediately call the templars or toss the mage in the fire for being a maleficar.

Of course, the blood mage could then immediately turn his abilities on his attackers, but if all you're doing is creating more death, then what was the point of having blood magic to heal people in the first place?

Inprea wrote...

I don't see why you're asking what if the only way to save those people was to kill someone either. Simple. Instead of killing someone spread the burden out among as many people as you possibly can to avoid killing someone. If there aren't enough people to share the burden then you look for a volunteer. If there is no one willing to die to combat the fire or heal the burn victims then they die unless one of them is willing to die in order to save the others and end his/her pain.

Because there's nothing in the lore that really shows blood magic can be used to enhance healing. If anything, the evidence points to blood magic inhibiting healing, as you can't heal yourself while blood magic is active unless you rip the HP out of companions.

It is, after all, magic powered by pain and suffering.

There is one canonical example of blood magic being used to save someone, which is mentioned offhandedly in World of Thedas: a blood mage sacrificed his own life to save his lover, who was dying of a disease. What if the best trade a blood mage can make is a life for another life?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 décembre 2013 - 07:28 .

[manbobjoe]

I think pain and death are both important parts of blood magic, as in it isn't the blood that nesessarily powers blood magic but the life force and suffering behind that blood. If all you needed was blood wouldn't they use animal blood instead of human, Elven, etc blood.

Also I think it's common knowledge that blood magic corrupts, how many nice helpful blood mages have we met and how many crazies? It also erodes your resistance to demons. So in short blood magic isn't just morally reprehensible, for a long list of reasons, but dangerous to those using it.

[Hellion Rex]

manbobjoe wrote...

I think pain and death are both important parts of blood magic, as in it isn't the blood that nesessarily powers blood magic but the life force and suffering behind that blood. If all you needed was blood wouldn't they use animal blood instead of human, Elven, etc blood.

Also I think it's common knowledge that blood magic corrupts, how many nice helpful blood mages have we met and how many crazies? It also erodes your resistance to demons. So in short blood magic isn't just morally reprehensible, for a long list of reasons, but dangerous to those using it.

Hang on. Why can't they use animal blood? It still is a force of life.

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

manbobjoe wrote...

I think pain and death are both important parts of blood magic, as in it isn't the blood that nesessarily powers blood magic but the life force and suffering behind that blood. If all you needed was blood wouldn't they use animal blood instead of human, Elven, etc blood.

Also I think it's common knowledge that blood magic corrupts, how many nice helpful blood mages have we met and how many crazies? It also erodes your resistance to demons. So in short blood magic isn't just morally reprehensible, for a long list of reasons, but dangerous to those using it.

Hang on. Why can't they use animal blood? It still is a force of life.

Because that's not as interesting.  Thedas is still a fictional world and for whatever power makes sufferring make blood magic more powerful also makes it so that its limited to humans.  As for reasons, maybe animals aren't connected to the fade....any number of reasons really.  Again, if animals could be used, all Jowan would have to say was 'Okay.  Go bring me a cow to slaughter.'  or the magisters in the whole days could have just killed a bunch of animals instead of slaves.

[Inprea]

thats1evildude wrote...

Inprea wrote...

If you're refering to my post I have to ask. In what way did the scenarios I give assume the community is openly accepting of blood magic? None of them required the community to be accepting of blood magic only that the mage know blood magic. The mage could have been studying it in secret as part of their medical research. We have seen that blood magic can create books that permenantly increase your stats or spells that augment your health. It can even extend your life span. It is also possible that the mage had been forced to let people die before due to a lack of power.

I'm saying that people have to be accepting of blood magic to let you use it. The people of Thedas are generally mistrusting of blood magic, and for good reason. They've been told their whole lives to fear it and there are more than enough examples of the abuses of blood magic to back that up.

In the scenario you mentioned, the people you want to lend a bit of their life force to heal the ten injured fire victims are as likely to immediately call the templars or toss the mage in the fire for being a maleficar.

Of course, the blood mage could then immediately turn his abilities on his attackers, but if all you're doing is creating more death, then what was the point of having blood magic to heal people in the first place?

Inprea wrote...

I don't see why you're asking what if the only way to save those people was to kill someone either. Simple. Instead of killing someone spread the burden out among as many people as you possibly can to avoid killing someone. If there aren't enough people to share the burden then you look for a volunteer. If there is no one willing to die to combat the fire or heal the burn victims then they die unless one of them is willing to die in order to save the others and end his/her pain.

Because there's nothing in the lore that really shows blood magic can be used to enhance healing. If anything, the evidence points to blood magic inhibiting healing, as you can't heal yourself while blood magic is active unless you rip the HP out of companions.

It is, after all, magic powered by pain and suffering.

There is one canonical example of blood magic being used to save someone, which is mentioned offhandedly in World of Thedas: a blood mage sacrificed his own life to save his lover, who was dying of a disease. What if the best trade a blood mage can make is a life for another life?

The miss trust you speak of depends on the location actually. Not all regions have the same fear of blood magic or would have the same response. The wilds near Ostagar or however you spell it being one example of a location that the chant hasn't reached yet. Plus not everyone would recognize blood magic for what it is. It's not like the common man has seen a mage in action.

Then there is the simple truth that desperate people tend to be more willing to take risk. If the mage is the one driving back a wild fire or has already saved several of their lives they're going to be a bit more inclined to trust them. Just think of how the refugees protected Anders despite being told of how dangerous mages can be.

Blood magic hinders healing the person using the blood magic but there is nothing saying that it makes it harder to heal others. Given that it's meant to impower the users magic it's more likely to help. As for examples of blood magic being used to help others. Hawke's sibling is held by blood magic and only blood magic can release them from those binds.

Hawke's father also used blood magic to reinforce the restraints that held Corepheus which I believe most would say is a good thing. It's not good as killing him naturally but apparently that didn't work out so well.

There is no practical reason as to why the best a blood mage can do is sacrifice a life for another life. What if a mana depleted mage could save two lives at the cost of 50 health points so they have enough energy to cast heal and rejuvenate?

[HiroVoid]

Again...before going too deep into arguments. Remember Thedas is fictional. What may seem obvious or practical isn't always going to be the case because the fact remains that it may not be interesting. If another route proves more interesting, writers'll usually go that way and make up whatever reason needs to be done for why the other way won't work.

[MisterJB]

As others have already said, page 109 of "The World of Thedas" clearly states that:
"The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful the spell becomes."

Therefore, blood magic is not reliant merely upon blood; it also requires suffering in order to properly function. So, one hundred ltr of blood willingly donated will, likely, not be as useful as blood drained from someone whose heart you just cut out with a rusty spoon.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

As others have already said, page 109 of "The World of Thedas" clearly states that:
"The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful the spell becomes."

Therefore, blood magic is not reliant merely upon blood; it also requires suffering in order to properly function. So, one hundred ltr of blood willingly donated will, likely, not be as useful as blood drained from someone whose heart you just cut out with a rusty spoon.

That sounds painful..

[HiroVoid]

That's what makes the magic so powerful.

[MisterJB]

And yes, this is something entirely new and was possibly introduced by Bioware because the fans were a bit more accepting of blood magic than they wished them to be; the primary reaction to "blood mage" in the forums seems to be "so what".
So, now, blood mages are more likely to be nefarious than not because it's not just about blood, it's also about how much suffering was inflicted in the process of acquiring it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 décembre 2013 - 08:03 .

[HiroVoid]

Yeah. I kinda get the feeling Bioware's trying to sort through its lore and make things more clear with Dragon Age: Inquisition since it also seems like templars requiring lyrium was also changed since Alistair's statement in DA:O where he would have had to have taken some.

[Hellion Rex]

HiroVoid wrote...

That's what makes the magic so powerful.

God, but why do I have to make a freaking Faustian pact just because I wanna boil some blood?
Hang on, I wonder if someone could use water magic to have the same effect? Or just be able to control the liquid in the body...

Modifié par eluvianix, 09 décembre 2013 - 08:05 .

[DarthLaxian]

Inprea wrote...

They are several things about the Dragon Age Universe that have me curious about the actual mechanics behind them and one of them is blood magic. One of the big things I wonder is how fresh does the blood need to be in order to be usable and what can be do to preserve it? If we are to assume that blood can be stored and perhaps even distilled into a more concentrated form then your average blood mage is very wasteful indeed. Rather then bleeding a single slave dry and depriving yourself of a slave why not just take a little blood from several slaves or even volunteers?

Now this is assuming the blood can be stored. The mage could even collect blood over several months and prepare a large reserve. Then whenever the mage needed to cast a very large spell they could simply make use of these reserves rather then doing drastic harm to their servants or having to waste money on lyrium which could be used elsewhere. Such as in the construction of magic items, making guardians like in the circle tower or perhaps even research to duplicate Fenris's markings.

Now to anyone who thinks there would be something wrong with duplicating such markings let me ask you this. Why not just drug the person out of their mind so that they don't feel the pain of the procedure? I speculate, which I admit holds little ground, that his master didn't numb him simply because he wanted to wipe away his memories to produce a more loyal servant.

yes - indeed.

one thing though:

we already know that blood can be stored - the blood for the joining does not need to be fresh (as far as i know, Duncan was not sent to hunt down darkspawn in the deep-roads for his joining (remember: no blight, so no darkspawn roaming the land)), the same goes for phylacteries (!) they contain preserved blood that even retains the connection to the person the blood came from (thus enabling someone who has this blood to track the one it belonged to)

greetings LAX
ps: that's something i would really love to be able to do ingame: collect blood (from the dead, from rare creatures (dragons, darkspawn etc.)) and then later use it when I need some more power (more then "traditional" magic or even "normal" blood-magic have to offer)

[Hellion Rex]

DarthLaxian wrote...

ps: that's something i would really love to be able to do ingame: collect blood (from the dead, from rare creatures (dragons, darkspawn etc.)) and then later use it when I need some more power (more then "traditional" magic or even "normal" blood-magic have to offer)

Interesting...I wonder what using the blood of a powerful could accomplish. Blood magic powered by a dragon's blood? That would be pretty cool.

[Dayze]

The thread originator still right though; even factoring in the emotional aspect of the blood drain enhancing it.

Not having a ton of blood on hand by willing donors is kind of a waste.

Though "violent" deaths are kind of an iffy thing to base it off of, more painful maybe but violent? Getting your head cut off, if its a quick decapitation is pretty much got to be a near painless death. Same with a smooth throat cut......bloods going to drain quick, sensation will numb just as quickly.....in a sense that's true of any extreme injury.

What you need is an injury that's damaging but not likely to be lethal or impossible to be repaired and of course if the "donor" knows healing magic exists and can be used to fix them up right after words......that's going to drop the stress factor a little bit.

[Br3admax]

eluvianix wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

That's what makes the magic so powerful.

God, but why do I have to make a freaking Faustian pact just because I wanna boil some blood?
Hang on, I wonder if someone could use water magic to have the same effect? Or just be able to control the liquid in the body...

Thedas isn't ready for Blood Benders. This is known. 

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

As others have already said, page 109 of "The World of Thedas" clearly states that:
"The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful the spell becomes."

Therefore, blood magic is not reliant merely upon blood; it also requires suffering in order to properly function. So, one hundred ltr of blood willingly donated will, likely, not be as useful as blood drained from someone whose heart you just cut out with a rusty spoon.

Do you have any proof that Jowan tortured Conor's mother to get enough power for the blood ritual? That or exactly how painful was it when he stabbed himself granting him enough power to knock several templars on their tails?

Who did Malcolm Hawke torture to reinforce Cory's prison? I didn't see any evidence that he used blood other then his own. 

You're throwing out some very big numbers there. How about offering some lore that gives the actual ratio instead of just assuming that blood taken painfully is one hundred times more potent then that given willingly?

[Dayze]

manbobjoe wrote...

I think pain and death are both important parts of blood magic, as in it isn't the blood that nesessarily powers blood magic but the life force and suffering behind that blood. If all you needed was blood wouldn't they use animal blood instead of human, Elven, etc blood.

Also I think it's common knowledge that blood magic corrupts, how many nice helpful blood mages have we met and how many crazies? It also erodes your resistance to demons. So in short blood magic isn't just morally reprehensible, for a long list of reasons, but dangerous to those using it.

Well; as pointed out so much fear and hatred exists about blood magic, that even using it to heal and save lives could end up getting you killed.

Basically in the society of Thedas the majority of people willing to use it are going to be the crazies by and large.  Regardless of any corrupting activities of the magic itself.

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

That's what makes the magic so powerful.

God, but why do I have to make a freaking Faustian pact just because I wanna boil some blood?
Hang on, I wonder if someone could use water magic to have the same effect? Or just be able to control the liquid in the body...

Thedas isn't ready for Blood Benders. This is known. 

Bah. So Thedas is perfectly fine to have mages that are basically demonic portals, and you say bloodbending is world breaking? Nope. Not buying it.

Modifié par eluvianix, 09 décembre 2013 - 08:32 .

[Inprea]

DarthLaxian wrote...
yes - indeed.

one thing though:

we already know that blood can be stored - the blood for the joining does not need to be fresh (as far as i know, Duncan was not sent to hunt down darkspawn in the deep-roads for his joining (remember: no blight, so no darkspawn roaming the land)), the same goes for phylacteries (!) they contain preserved blood that even retains the connection to the person the blood came from (thus enabling someone who has this blood to track the one it belonged to)

greetings LAX
ps: that's something i would really love to be able to do ingame: collect blood (from the dead, from rare creatures (dragons, darkspawn etc.)) and then later use it when I need some more power (more then "traditional" magic or even "normal" blood-magic have to offer)

It would be nice. A mage could even choose to bank their own blood if it can be preserved. We've seen that a blood mage calling upon their own blood can generate quite a powerful affect. So why not donate some of your own blood to long term storage for when you need it later? Modern blood banks do it in a sense.

Plus I'd love to experiment and see what race has the most powerful blood on average. Is there a difference between a dragon's blood and a human's when it comes to the use of blood magic? What if the blood has some lyrium mixed in either before or after it's taken from the person?

The limitations of computer rpgs can be so frustrating. So many fun experiments that could be conducted but no way to actually perform them.

Modifié par Inprea, 09 décembre 2013 - 08:33 .

[Hellion Rex]

Inprea wrote...

DarthLaxian wrote...
yes - indeed.

one thing though:

we already know that blood can be stored - the blood for the joining does not need to be fresh (as far as i know, Duncan was not sent to hunt down darkspawn in the deep-roads for his joining (remember: no blight, so no darkspawn roaming the land)), the same goes for phylacteries (!) they contain preserved blood that even retains the connection to the person the blood came from (thus enabling someone who has this blood to track the one it belonged to)

greetings LAX
ps: that's something i would really love to be able to do ingame: collect blood (from the dead, from rare creatures (dragons, darkspawn etc.)) and then later use it when I need some more power (more then "traditional" magic or even "normal" blood-magic have to offer)

It would be nice. A mage could even choose to bank their own blood if it can be preserved. We've seen that a blood mage calling upon their own blood can generate quite a powerful affect. So why not donate some of your own blood to long term storage for when you need it later? Modern blood banks do it in a sense.

That's assuming a mage has the materials and money necessary to store all of that blood.

[Br3admax]

eluvianix wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

That's what makes the magic so powerful.

God, but why do I have to make a freaking Faustian pact just because I wanna boil some blood?
Hang on, I wonder if someone could use water magic to have the same effect? Or just be able to control the liquid in the body...

Thedas isn't ready for Blood Benders. This is known. 

Bah. So Thedas is perfectly fine to have mages that are basically demonic portals, and you say bloodbending is world breaking? Nope. Not buying it.

It's not ready. Maybe one day when the "EVULEVULEVULMUHAHAHAHAHAHMUAHAHAHMAUAHHAHA!!!!" calms down. 

[Ianamus]

The way I see it spells that involve blood, but only small amounts where it has been stored like phylacteries or the joining are only "borderline" blood magic, like that used in the Witch Hunt DLC.

True blood magic like mind control, demon summoning and other powerful spells aren't so much about the blood itself but about the agony and suffering caused. I remember reading that the power of blood magic increases the more suffering is caused.

[thats1evildude]

The in-game evidence suggests that the gains from blood magic aren't cumulative in the way you hope. You can't ****** the thumbs of ten people and get the same returns as cutting the throat of one person. If you could, why wouldn't Jowan simply ask for a line of volunteers to open up their wrists instead of killing Isolde?

I also want to stress again that the Joining has never been described as blood magic anywhere in the lore. There is magic and blood involved, but the blood is merely a component of the ritual.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 décembre 2013 - 08:43 .

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
And yes, this is something entirely new and was possibly introduced by Bioware because the fans were a bit more accepting of blood magic than they wished them to be; the primary reaction to "blood mage" in the forums seems to be "so what".
So, now, blood mages are more likely to be nefarious than not because it's not just about blood, it's also about how much suffering was inflicted in the process of acquiring it.

This, however, is something not shown in the games. I don't think Bioware's attempt to "evilize" blood magic really worked so far - and I don't think it should. The original concept was about blood being perceived as something special and, for lack of a better word, sacred. In other words, blood magic was one of those intangible evils some people believe in and others don't. The controversy was very well circumscribed. The lore added by WoT I changes the whole concept in a very fundamental manner and leaves those who have already adapted to the old concept out in the cold. I consider this a really bad retcon. 

Also, it was completely unnecessary. Blood magic enables necromancy, mind control and demon summoning. Forbidding it on pragmatic grounds was always a viable concept. It didn't need to be evilized.

We'll see how things turn out in DAI. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 décembre 2013 - 08:46 .