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[The Elder King]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Which trap Alistair walked in at Ostagar?

The whole Tower of Ishaal diversion. Not that I'm serious about it, just illustrating how it's silly to use hindsight to declare that the outcome of something was "obvious." Don't get hung up on this point. It's the least important thing I wrote.

I already adressed the same post, and our stances seem similar, so I focused on the point I didn't understand.

[Plaintiff]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Is Anora supposed to be clairvoyant and stop insulting remarks before they happen? Or, worse yet, whine about it?

She should never have let her father speak in the first place, regardless of what he was going to say. She's the Queen, not him. Not to mention, she's his daughter, she's known him her whole life. She should be well aware of his tendency for saying and doing stupid things.

Right... except, of course, when she brokers an alliance with the 'Warden to take down her father at the Landsmeet.

Unless your warden refuses to help her, which you can totally do.  And it's not a 'smart' move, it's a desperate one. The Waden himself has no political clout, and is in fact being actively hunted by the acting authority. Anora would have no reason to turn to him if she wasn't utterly friendless herself.

She's not Wonderwoman. She wasn't going to solve this problem overnight.

She wasn't going to solve it at all. The Warden does everything, including successfully lobbying for support from the lords that are in town for the Landsmeet.

Let me reiterate: Warden does everything. Anora does nothing.

Those men decided they would rather oppose the throne than make sure the Blight was taken care of first.

According to Loghain, there is no Blight. He wants their forces to prepare for an imaginary Orlesian invasion from under his bed.

Considering that the throne is currently occupied by a drooling, paranoid twit, opposing it is the only right and logical thing to do.

Loghain had every right to put them down. No one in their right mind would oppose this action.

Loghain brought it on himself with his own idiocy. He and Anora both have a remarkable penchant for short-sightedly burning bridges the minute they cease to become immediatly useful, only to find that they need them later.

The rebellion is Loghain's own damn fault for being a totally tactless moron. It already looked to the world like he'd effectively murdered Cailan (whether he did or not is irrelevent). He then follows this up by publicly insulting the recently-deceased king, who was also his son-in-law, and then he actively threatens everyone present.

He is a ****wit, and so is Anora for not stepping in.

Retrospective determinism. Unlike the player, Anora doesn't have hindsight on her side before going to Howe. It's easy to say "she should have known it was going to happen" since the elf maiden tells us everything in a way that makes it obvious how it will unfold, but before it happens, it's really not something she could have forseen. It wasn't even a "trap" let alone an "obvious" one given the fact Howe's actions were improvised; he didn't bait her to his estate or anything.

If that's the criteria we're using to judge competance, should Alistair be blamed for walking into an "obvious trap" at Ostagar? What about saving Anora and getting captured at Fort Drakon? 'Seems like a pretty arbitrary standard to me.

Loghain and Anora are doubly ****witted for ever trusting Howe in the first place, since it's common knowledge that he recently slaughtered the Couslands after pretending to be their close friend for decades. It's not "retroactive" anything. Anyone with half a brain should've seen betrayal coming from miles away.

And, let me break this down for you: If you have any reason at all to suspect that someone is a traitor, DO NOT GO TO THEIR HOUSE YOU DUMMY.

There was no obvious trap at Ostagar, and if there was, it's Loghain's fault for failing to recognise it, since he is a military leader, and Alistair is just a foot soldier.

Going to save Anora is a completely stupid move. The Warden has no reason to believe that she can be trusted, or even that her maid is telling the truth at all. It's certainly not worth risking the Warden's life or Alistair's. If I was ever faced with such a situation in real life, I wouldn't ****ing do it. The only reason I go through with it in DA:O is because I'm forced to in order to proceed. Otherwise, I would happily leave Anora to rot.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:24 .

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff (or anybody else), could you tell me when Loghain insulted Cailan in public? Because in his first speech as a regent he never mentioned Cailan. He insulted him in front of Anora and Howe, when the queen asked Loghain if he killed him. And they weren't in public.

Modifié par hhh89, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:40 .

[Hazegurl]

Plaintiff wrote...
Going to save Anora is[/b] a completely stupid move. The Warden has no reason to believe that she can be trusted, or even that her maid is telling the truth at all. It's certainly not worth risking the Warden's life or[/b] Alistair's. If I was ever faced with such a situation in real life, I wouldn't ****ing do it. The only reason I go through with it in DA:O is because I'm forced to in order to proceed. Otherwise, I would happily leave Anora to rot.

I actually agree with this. Sadly most of what you need to ruin Loghain is in Howe's estate. I can see a Cousland wanting to go just to spit in Howe's face by taking his prisoner or perhaps confront him but offering a rescue of Anora as the only reason for going to Howe's estate was not good enough. They should have instead provided some intel that certain nobles have gone missing and could be in the Howe estate as well. Now that would have been a good enough reason to head there and even then we should have been given the option to skip Anora.

I do think Anora is a smart woman who didn't have a choice when dealing with her father. She has no power, no legit claim to the throne, and certainly no army. She is 100% reliant on the Warden to make her Queen and if she can't be Queen she will settle for her father holding power even if she is nothing more than a puppet. The problem I have with Anora is that she wanted the title of Queen so bad to the point where she would aid Loghain at the landsmeet, a man who most certainly would have allowed Fereldan to perish just to keep Orleasian Wardens away. She's honestly no better than Alistair pouting cause Loghain's head isn't on the floor. She just does it with more dignity.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

Plaintiff (or anybody else), could you tell me when Loghain insulted Cailan in public? Because in his first speech as a regent he never mentioned Cailan. He insulted him in front of Anora and Howe, when the queen asked Loghain if he killed him. And they weren't in public.

Did Loghain say anything to him prior to the beginning of the Ostagar battle? Wasn't there a meeting or something?

[Hellion Rex]

Hazegurl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Going to save Anora is[/b] a completely stupid move. The Warden has no reason to believe that she can be trusted, or even that her maid is telling the truth at all. It's certainly not worth risking the Warden's life or[/b] Alistair's. If I was ever faced with such a situation in real life, I wouldn't ****ing do it. The only reason I go through with it in DA:O is because I'm forced to in order to proceed. Otherwise, I would happily leave Anora to rot.

I actually agree with this. Sadly most of what you need to ruin Loghain is in Howe's estate. I can see a Cousland wanting to go just to spit in Howe's face by taking his prisoner or perhaps confront him but offering a rescue of Anora as the only reason for going to Howe's estate was not good enough. They should have instead provided some intel that certain nobles have gone missing and could be in the Howe estate as well. Now that would have been a good enough reason to head there and even then we should have been given the option to skip Anora.

I do think Anora is a smart woman who didn't have a choice when dealing with her father. She has no power, no legit claim to the throne, and certainly no army. She is 100% reliant on the Warden to make her Queen and if she can't be Queen she will settle for her father holding power even if she is nothing more than a puppet. The problem I have with Anora is that she wanted the title of Queen so bad to the point where she would aid Loghain at the landsmeet, a man who most certainly would have allowed Fereldan to perish just to keep Orleasian Wardens away. She's honestly no better than Alistair pouting cause Loghain's head isn't on the floor. She just does it with more dignity.

Mean Alistair hater.

[Phoenix_Fyre]

Anyone think Hardened Alistair + Anora is the best option? I'm going for in in my DC run right now

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

She should never have let her father speak in the first place, regardless of what he was going to say. She's the Queen, not him.[/quote]

He leads Fereldan's military. That's kind of important. Let the man speak.

One off-hand remark about a king who doesn't deserve a flattering legacy to begin with is not worth decrying.


[quote]Not to mention, she's his daughter, she's known him her whole life. She should be well aware of his tendency for saying and doing stupid things.[/quote]

Or perhaps he does neither and this was a rare moment.

Loghain did a lot of things during this time that she wouldn't have expected of him. Hell, a lot of people who were close friends with him (Eamon, for example) thought that what he was doing was very unlike him. She's not alone in that.


[quote]Unless your warden refuses to help her, which you can totally do.  And it's not a 'smart' move, it's a desperate one.[/quote]

Desperate moves can be smart too.

In this case, I'd argue it was. She had nothing to lose by trying, but potentially ensures her rule in some stories.


[quote]The Waden himself has no political clout, and is in fact being actively hunted by the acting authority.[/quote]

... which is where Anora comes in, making partnering with her a mutally-beneficial agreement.

[quote]Anora would have no reason to turn to him if she wasn't utterly friendless herself.[/quote]

So it's a popularity contest.

[quote]
[quote]She's not Wonderwoman. She wasn't going to solve this problem overnight.[/quote]She wasn't going to solve it at all. The Warden does everything, including successfully lobbying for support from the lords that are in town for the Landsmeet.

Let me reiterate: Warden does everything. Anora does nothing.[/quote]

Anora's support for the Warden, if she gives it to you, helps sway more support in the Warden's favor at the Landsmeet. Anora only does nothing if the Warden turns her help away, which is just means the Warden is stubborn and will not do everything necessary to ensure their success at the Landsmeet. If they succeed without her support, they were merely lucky.


[quote]
[quote]Those men decided they would rather oppose the throne than make sure the Blight was taken care of first.[/quote]
According to Loghain, there is no Blight. He wants their forces to prepare for an imaginary Orlesian invasion from under his bed.[/quote]

He goes back and forth on that one. He's not sure if it's a "true" Blight, but he calls it that at the Landsmeet. In any case, the Darkspawn threat is not lost on him, he simply did not want to leave the military too weakened to defend itself from Orlais after fighting it. He makes that clear in a talk you can have with him if he's recruited. And I wouldn't be so quick to write off that possibility, seeing as Bann Teagan and (King) Alistair both speak of it as a very legit possibility in DA2.


[quote]The rebellion is Loghain's own damn fault for being a totally tactless moron. It already looked to the world like he'd effectively murdered Cailan (whether he did or not is irrelevent).[/quote]

No it didn't look like it. People were split whether Loghain did it because he wanted Cailan dead, because he made a bad call, because he made the right call, because the Grey Wardens did it, etc. etc. In any case, it would have been prudent for people to deal with the Blight before picking this political fight, seeing as nothing political would even matter if the Darkspawn destroy the country, but they instead decided that the Blight was a great time to fight with each other.

If Loghain is to be blamed for anything, it's underestimating the stupidity of his countrymen. But, again, hindsight is 20/20 vision -- and most would think they wouldd focus on the Blight since that would have been the smart thing to do.


[quote]Loghain and Anora are doubly ****witted for ever trusting Howe in the first place, since it's common knowledge that he recently slaughtered the Couslands after pretending to be their close friend for decades. It's not "retroactive" anything. Anyone with half a brain should've seen betrayal coming from miles away.[/quote]

Without playing the Human Noble origin, I saw nothing in the game that indicates Howe killing off the Couslands was even a rumor, much less a widely-known fact.

Howe had proven both loyal and valuable to Loghain up to that point. It was plenty reasonable for Loghain to trust him, and he really had no choice but to do so anyway. Someone had to give him polticial council.


[quote]And, let me break this down for you: If you have any reason at all to suspect that someone is a traitor, DO NOT GO TO THEIR HOUSE YOU DUMMY.[/quote]

She didn't suspect anything of Howe to begin with, just her father, and she wanted answers. And getting locked away into a room is not a response anyone expects to get for asking questions, especially not someone closely allied with your father. At worst, you get brushed off and told to go away. What Howe did was not forseeable in any normal scenario.


[quote]Going to save Anora is a completely stupid move. The Warden has no reason to believe that she can be trusted, or even that her maid is telling the truth at all. It's certainly not worth risking the Warden's life or Alistair's. If I was ever faced with such a situation in real life, I wouldn't ****ing do it. The only reason I go through with it in DA:O is because I'm forced to in order to proceed. Otherwise, I would happily leave Anora to rot.[/quote]

Fair enough.

[Hazegurl]

eluvianix wrote...

Mean Alistair hater.

lol! No I do like Alistair, it's just that he can be annoying sometimes and I hated his behavior if you spare Loghain. Other than that he's a sweetheart.

[duckley]

Plaintiff wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Is Anora supposed to be clairvoyant and stop insulting remarks before they happen? Or, worse yet, whine about it?

She should never have let her father speak in the first place, regardless of what he was going to say. She's the Queen, not him. Not to mention, she's his daughter, she's known him her whole life. She should be well aware of his tendency for saying and doing stupid things.

Right... except, of course, when she brokers an alliance with the 'Warden to take down her father at the Landsmeet.

Unless your warden refuses to help her, which you can totally do.  And it's not a 'smart' move, it's a desperate one. The Waden himself has no political clout, and is in fact being actively hunted by the acting authority. Anora would have no reason to turn to him if she wasn't utterly friendless herself.

She's not Wonderwoman. She wasn't going to solve this problem overnight.

She wasn't going to solve it at all. The Warden does everything, including successfully lobbying for support from the lords that are in town for the Landsmeet.

Let me reiterate: Warden does everything. Anora does nothing.

Those men decided they would rather oppose the throne than make sure the Blight was taken care of first.

According to Loghain, there is no Blight. He wants their forces to prepare for an imaginary Orlesian invasion from under his bed.

Considering that the throne is currently occupied by a drooling, paranoid twit, opposing it is the only right and logical thing to do.

Loghain had every right to put them down. No one in their right mind would oppose this action.

Loghain brought it on himself with his own idiocy. He and Anora both have a remarkable penchant for short-sightedly burning bridges the minute they cease to become immediatly useful, only to find that they need them later.

The rebellion is Loghain's own damn fault for being a totally tactless moron. It already looked to the world like he'd effectively murdered Cailan (whether he did or not is irrelevent). He then follows this up by publicly insulting the recently-deceased king, who was also his son-in-law, and then he actively threatens everyone present.

He is a ****wit, and so is Anora for not stepping in.

Retrospective determinism. Unlike the player, Anora doesn't have hindsight on her side before going to Howe. It's easy to say "she should have known it was going to happen" since the elf maiden tells us everything in a way that makes it obvious how it will unfold, but before it happens, it's really not something she could have forseen. It wasn't even a "trap" let alone an "obvious" one given the fact Howe's actions were improvised; he didn't bait her to his estate or anything.

If that's the criteria we're using to judge competance, should Alistair be blamed for walking into an "obvious trap" at Ostagar? What about saving Anora and getting captured at Fort Drakon? 'Seems like a pretty arbitrary standard to me.

Loghain and Anora are doubly ****witted for ever trusting Howe in the first place, since it's common knowledge that he recently slaughtered the Couslands after pretending to be their close friend for decades. It's not "retroactive" anything. Anyone with half a brain should've seen betrayal coming from miles away.

And, let me break this down for you: If you have any reason at all to suspect that someone is a traitor, DO NOT GO TO THEIR HOUSE YOU DUMMY.

There was no obvious trap at Ostagar, and if there was, it's Loghain's fault for failing to recognise it, since he is a military leader, and Alistair is just a foot soldier.

Going to save Anora is a completely stupid move. The Warden has no reason to believe that she can be trusted, or even that her maid is telling the truth at all. It's certainly not worth risking the Warden's life or Alistair's. If I was ever faced with such a situation in real life, I wouldn't ****ing do it. The only reason I go through with it in DA:O is because I'm forced to in order to proceed. Otherwise, I would happily leave Anora to rot.

agreed

[Rhayth]

I went for Male Cousland/Anora union. KING ME, BABY!

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Plaintiff (or anybody else), could you tell me when Loghain insulted Cailan in public? Because in his first speech as a regent he never mentioned Cailan. He insulted him in front of Anora and Howe, when the queen asked Loghain if he killed him. And they weren't in public.

Did Loghain say anything to him prior to the beginning of the Ostagar battle? Wasn't there a meeting or something?

Yes, he mocked him there. But Plaintiff is talking about Loghain insulting Cailan after his death.

[Spectre slayer]

Alistair (hardened) and Anora to rule jointly with Loghain usually dead

On some occasions i'll put Anora on the throne to rule with my warden.

Btw not everyone knew about Howe killing the Cuslands at first, considering the fact that you tell Callen about it and say no one knows yet and he promises to do something after the battle but then he dies, there were probably rumors but hat's about it.

[Br3admax]

simfamSP wrote...

Anora and Alistair.

If my Warden wants to rule he'll do it behind the scenes. He doesn't want to be seen as an usurper.

Usurp from who? And you don't have any power politically, consorts never do, so I don't see how you could be seen as an usurper. 

[Br3admax]

Some people don't believe Alistair's story. Some think that Alistair is a horrible leader. Most realise that you don't have to kill Alistair at the Landsmeet.

As to the Teryn of Gwaren thing, it's never mentioned again, and I don't think that there are any plot flags for it, though I may be mistaken.

[The Elder King]

@simfamSP: in the case the Warden is a Cousland Loghain knows, since Cailan told him his intentions towards Howe. Loghain told the Warden that Cailand told him about the promise the king made.

Modifié par hhh89, 11 décembre 2013 - 01:50 .

[Ieldra]

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Mean Alistair hater.

lol! No I do like Alistair, it's just that he can be annoying sometimes and I hated his behavior if you spare Loghain. Other than that he's a sweetheart.

Since his stupid behaviour makes it possible we'll see him in DA2 as a drunk complaining how he could've been king I can forgive this character flaw. Almost. Becoming a Grey Warden is not a reward (except if you're a mage), even he should be able to see that.

[Ieldra]

@the topic:
My "standard solution" is hardened Alistair and Anora - he for the military and the popularity, she for the actual work of ruling. I've also had either alone.

I've never had my Warden be involved in Ferelden's rule, because this requires playing a whole game with a Human Noble, which I did once and not again, since humans appeal to me mostly as mages.

[Lord Raijin]

Marakov7 wrote...

The "terms of the duel" were clearly laid out by Alfstanna: “It shall be fought according to tradition: a test of arms in single combat until one party yields. And we who assembled will abide by the outcome.”

Executing Loghain after defeating him in the duel, even though he yielded, would have been in direct violation of the terms set forth before the fight began. If the Grey Warden had problems with the terms laid out by Alstanna, he/she should have voiced their disagreement right away. Going ahead and killing Loghain anyway would have been an act of lawlessness - Ferelden had seen enough of that since Ostagar, this had to change.

If executing Loghain after he yielded in defeat was in direct violation of the terms then why didn't nobody step forth, like his daughter, and protested the idea? At this point Anora was no longer the Queen of Ferelden, but the frighten little girl who is about to lose her dad. If executing this man was against the code of conduct then Anora, as the current Queen, would've used this to spare her father from being executed, but she said nothing including every other well known political leader of Ferelden including the Grand Cleric. Nobody was stopping Alistair or the Warden from executing this man, especially after his crimes was dug up and exposed.

Loghain deserved to be thrown in the dungeon and, after the blight was ended, given a public trial and executed as a traitor so all the people could see, thus ruining his reputation. However, the senior Grey Warden present (Riordan)...the only one who actually knew the details of how to defeat the archdemon...said that there was a compelling reason to make Loghain a Grey Warden. It only made sense to go along with his plan.

Loghain's public trial already happen prior to the duel. He was exposed and became a war criminal and an enemy of the Country. Their was simply not enough men to watch over him in the dungeon because every guard of the city was off fighting the Darkspawn. While the idea of making Loghain into a Grey warden seems like an idea.. the fact is he has commited so many severe crimes that it could not be ignored. He doesn't deserve to have clemency. Using him to sacrifice his life will only brand him as a hero, not as the war criminal that he was. He does not deserve to have his name plattererd in the history books as the man who saved Ferelden during the fifth Blight. I can't simply let this happen, not after what he had done to his country.

[Skyrunner_Morgan]

1) Hardened Alistair
2) Hardened Alistair with Warden Queen

[Vulpe]

@ Raijin

There would have been no country if it wasn't for him. Ferelden would have still been a part of the Orlesian Empire.

While his actions are condemnable, I think he did much more that other people did( Zevran, for example ) to deserve a second chance.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:05 .