345 réponses à ce sujet

[Deathsaurer]

You knew what Hackett was going to do. Part of the plan was to kill Sovereign. You signed up for that knowing the possible risks.

[Hazegurl]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
The Hackett one is comparable. He blew up the ship when it was directly on top of you without warning. It's only by the grace of a triumphant cutscene that Shepard and company survive (how did the room hold atmo, exactly?).

Actually it isn't without warning.  The entire point of the mission was to destroy Sovereign and Saren. Shepard knew why he was there and everything went according to plan.

Shepard is inside the Citadel to open the arms to allow the fleet to attack Sovereign and he has communication with the Normandy to order the fleet to save the Council or not. Not once does Shepard tell anyone not to attack the Reaper.

Sovereign was also attacking the fleet while Shepard was dealing with Puppet Saren inside so it makes sense to fire on him. If Shepard dies then he is dying doing his duty as an alliance soldier  and Council Spectre on his mission.

Egotism is at the root of a lot of people's objection to Gerrel's actions. Sacrifice for thee but not for me.

Wrong. My plan with the Quarians were for them to flee not attack. If they can't follow simple directions they're worthless. It sure doesn't help that the same moron pew pews his own race into extinction later on without Shepard's intervention. The man is clearly a danger to everyone on the battlefield and the fact that the rest of the admirals lack any sort of resolve in dealing with him is enough to make me question whether or not I want any of them, let alone Gerrel.  

I do agree that Shepard should not be in so many dangerous missions. But you're using gameplay to prove a point and that's unfair. In the story Shepard is the one who is gathering all of these forces, weakening Cerebrus, gathering critical devices for the crucible project. He is one of the most important people in the galaxy at this point. Gerrel should be more mindful of Shepard's life. Even if it is just for diplomatic reasons.   

And I don't see how it's egotism to not want to die so the Quarians can reclaim their home world.  Especially after meeting Xen. Yeah let me give up my life so Xen can make more Geth that Gerrel can go apeshyt on them and restart this entire merry go round.  If it was left up to me, I would have never helped the Quarians to begin with.

[Deathsaurer]

Hazegurl wrote...

And I don't see how it's egotism to not want to die so the Quarians can reclaim their home world.  Especially after meeting Xen. Yeah let me give up my life so Xen can make more Geth that Gerrel can go apeshyt on them and restart this entire merry go round.  If it was left up to me, I would have never helped the Quarians to begin with.

That's... a bit much. Judging an entire race by the actions of a few individuals.

[Ryzaki]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I disagree vehemently with the assessment of the worth of Shepard's life

I don't see how you can see this. If the Quarian fleet goes kaboom the Reapers are still defeated. If Shepard dies anytime before meeting starchild the galaxy is screwed. (no one to reach the catalyst bye bye intelligent space faring races). Shepard has far more value to the galaxy at large than the Quarian fleet could ever have. And I'm pretty sure most of the races would be the first to say so.

As far as the galaxy is concerned the Quarians are a bunch of thieving vagrants who dump their criminals on other people's planets. You really think they wouldn't consider them worth less than the person currently attempting to stop the Reapers (rather than fight the Geth) and is gathering resources and the like to stop them? *Really*? You don't see how that's more valuable? Shepard saves trillions of lives. That vastly outweights the Quarin fleet even if they were being useful instead of wasting their resources and other people's time herp derping against the geth in a completely unnecessary war.

It's not nice but that's just how it is.

The war can be won without the Quarians. It can't be won without Shepard (and indeed it would've been lost much faster).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:14 .

[Deathsaurer]

Ryzaki wrote...

As far as the galaxy is concerned the Quarians are a bunch of thieving vagrants who dump their criminals on other people's planets.

As far as the galaxy is concerned the Geth are mindless killbots. As far as half the galaxy is concerned the Krogan are worthless brutes. The galaxies opinion isn't exactly worth much.

[Ryzaki]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

As far as the galaxy is concerned the Quarians are a bunch of thieving vagrants who dump their criminals on other people's planets.

As far as the galaxy is concerned the Geth are mindless killbots. As far as half the galaxy is concerned the Krogan are worthless brutes. The galaxies opinion isn't exactly worth much.

And they decide to work with said Geth based off Shep's word that they'll help.

It kind of is when you're arguing if someone's worth a million or more lives.

People are dying in those numbers every single day that war is dragged on. The Quarians are wasting Shepard and everyone else's time and unlike the Krogan it's not necessary for them they could've tried to make peace with the Geth they didn't!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:16 .

[Hazegurl]

@Death, The actions of their leaders not their citizens. I have always helped a Quarian in need throughout my gameplay. The young guy stuck on Omega, the girl being accused of stealing, along with the slave girl. But their leadership led them to put weapons on civilian fleets and a war in the middle of the biggest war in the galaxy. And if it's left up to Xen and Gerrel, they'll be getting their suits blown off by the Geth 2.0 as they flee their home world once again. I feel for the average Quarian but their leaders can go get reaperized for all I care.

Also, since Shepard has no say so in Quarian leadership, then it isn't his problem if even the average Quarian follows his/her leader to their doom.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:19 .

[Deathsaurer]

There is no way anyone at the time could have known Shepard was more important than anyone else. Was he? Sure, unless you want Liara to save the next cycle. I don't like the way Han'Garrel did things. Tali didn't like the way Han'Garrel did things. Koris didn't like the way Han'Garrel did things. Raan didn't like the way Han'Garrel did things. Let's not doom an entire race cause one dude is an impulsive xenophobic wreck...

[Ryzaki]

Deathsaurer wrote...

There is no way anyone at the time could have known Shepard was more important than anyone else. Was he? Sure, unless you want Liara to save the next cycle. I don't like the way Han'Garrel did things. Tali didn't like the way Han'Garrel did things. Koris didn't like the way Han'Garrel did things. Raan didn't like the way Han'Garrel did things. Let's not doom an entire race cause one dude is an impulsive xenophobic wreck...

Shepard saved the Citadel, Shepard gets the Crucible, Shepard gets the Turians and Krogan to work together, Shepard saved the Citadel yet again, Shepard is gathering resources and armies for the Reaper war.

How exactly at that point do they not realize Shepard is more important than the Quarian fleet that while Shepard has been doing all this has been throwing their idiot self at the Geth yet again and being utterly worthless to the rest of the galaxy? And strengthening the Reapers at that! Like they needed an extra army!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:22 .

[Hazegurl]

Edit: The above is much better.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:24 .

[Rotward]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
So basically "mine is an evil laugh." But you forget: how can one twirl their mustache through a helmet?

I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the dumbest ideas I've heard in some time. Among other things, you act like Gerrel is operating in a vacuum. Everyone knows what happened - including the Normandy's crew. Raan tries to have him drawn up on treason charges for what he did. You're spinning up a convoluted conspiracy (whose success would be questionable at best) over the far simpler explanation of "hey, the shields are down on the ship that was killing all our guys! Let's destroy it before they fix it and start killing all our guys again."

Has Gerrel ever struck you as the scheming manipulator? If anything, the guy is impulsive - blunt to a fault.

All the admirals are pliticians, and schemers, as we see in me2. For that matter, they tried to get shepard and tali killed fighting geth once before, also for political gain. 

"Hey, our entire squad of marines died trying to retake the ship. This time, lets only send three people!" followed by "they've been gone a couple hours, they must be dead, now we can declare tali a traitor!" 

Plus, everyone knows that garrel has mustache attachments for just such an occasion! 

[Ryzaki]

Hazegurl wrote...

The fact that the Quarians know Shepard is gathering forces to save the galaxy against the Reapers then they most certainly know that his life is far more valuable than theirs.

Damnit this debate is just making me play ME3 and side with the Geth again but I'd have to go through that terribad Reaper fight. Ugggh.

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

The fact that the Quarians know Shepard is gathering forces to save the galaxy against the Reapers then they most certainly know that his life is far more valuable than theirs.

Damnit this debate is just making me play ME3 and side with the Geth again but I'd have to go through that terribad Reaper fight. Ugggh.

LOL! I know! An evil part of me wants to romance Tali and watch her cliff dive.

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

The fact that the Quarians know Shepard is gathering forces to save the galaxy against the Reapers then they most certainly know that his life is far more valuable than theirs.

Damnit this debate is just making me play ME3 and side with the Geth again but I'd have to go through that terribad Reaper fight. Ugggh.

its ok, I'll still sell Legion to the real heroes:bandit:

[Deathsaurer]

Ryzaki wrote...

Shepard saved the Citadel

Shepard got very lucky and saved the galaxy. One of the high points of their career.

Shepard gets the Crucible

We're not there yet. It's still very much will it even work at this point.

Shepard gets the Turians and Krogan to work together

I'll be honest here, anyone that could deliver the cure could do this. It was certainly impressive that they where the one that belived they could do it.

Shepard saved the Citadel yet again

Indeed, Cerberus had a very bad day that day.

Shepard is gathering resources and armies for the Reaper war.

Realisticly Shepard shouldn't be the one doing this. Recuing random Shadow Broker mercs... Really Liara? Can't get someone else to do that?

How exactly at that point do they not realize Shepard is more important than the Quarian fleet that while Shepard has been doing all this has been throwing their idiot self at the Geth yet again and being utterly worthless to the rest of the galaxy?

If you want to say Shepard is more important than Han'Garrel I'll agree with that. I think the majority of the Quarians would agree with that. The entire race? Not so much...

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:29 .

[Hazegurl]

Why isn't Shepard more important than the entire Quarian race? Are they forging alliances and getting the Council races to step up and end the Reaper threat? Sometimes the life of one person is worth more than millions.

[Ryzaki]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Shepard got very lucky and save the galaxy. One of the high points of their career.

More than the Quarians do

We're not there yet. It's still very much will it even work at this point.

What? At that point they're more than half way there. And there's always the question of whether it'll work even at the end of the game. He did more for the Crucible effort at that point than the Quarians ever would.

I'll be honest here, anyone that could deliver the cure could do this. It was certainly impressive that they where the one that belived they could do it.

You really think anyone would've survived the Reaper and Brute hordes? Or the Cerberus trooper squad? It usually takes 50+ people to do what Shepard can accomplish with 2. And they usually die doing it.

Indeed, Cerberus had a very bad day that day.

XD

Realisticly Shepard shouldn't be the one doing this. Recuing random Shadow Broker mercs... Really Liara? Can't get someone else to do that?

Regardless Shep's still doing it. And the Quarians are...throwing themselves at the Geth driving them into the Reapers open waiting arms and giving the Reapers another valuable resource that could've been fighting on the side with everyone else. Brilliance.

If you want to say Shepard is more important than Han'Garrel I'll agree with that. I think the majority of the Quarians would agree with that. The entire race? Not so much...

And what exactly has the entire race done to help with the slaughter of billions at that point eh? Other than you know throw themselves at the geth and put guns on their liveships to do so.  Yes there are people that are worth more than entire countries. That's just how it is sometimes. I'd say the man who found Penicilin was EASILY worth 19 million people he saved many more.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:35 .

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

The fact that the Quarians know Shepard is gathering forces to save the galaxy against the Reapers then they most certainly know that his life is far more valuable than theirs.

Damnit this debate is just making me play ME3 and side with the Geth again but I'd have to go through that terribad Reaper fight. Ugggh.

its ok, I'll still sell Legion to the real heroes:bandit:

LOL

I love Miranda's pout when my Shep goes "lol no" to selling Legion.

(Honestly I wish I could've sold Grunt to Cerberus. Just to see if they made Krogan shock troops in ME3 ) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[CynicalShep]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@Cynical
Fair enough. I'm not a fan of not being warned either, but I understand his motives. "You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

The ship coming back online would have been irreversible, and a major boon to the Reaper-controlled Geth. The status quo was that the Quarians were trapped and being picked apart by the fleet which was led by that dreadnought. Once it was eliminated, the shorter range of the backup required that the Geth cluster around Rannoch. It begs the question of how the Geth blockading the relay retained the code upgrades.

I disagree vehemently with the assessment of the worth of Shepard's life; I suspect we'll have to leave it at that. I dislike the council for even thinking they have the right to appoint omnipotent agents, and wish we had more opportunity to speak out against the practice.

That last strategy would take heavy casualties to maybe land a boarding party. Geth platforms on board or no, the ships themselves are conscious entities who (realistically) wouldn't take kindly to attempts to capture them. Frankly, if taken, I'd expect them to blow themselves up or pick a Quarian ship to crash into.

I need to get some food.

I know that the Quarians were between a rock and a hard place, but I agreed with them on a retreat because they were getting roflstomped. I wanted to save them and went and did what was necessary. Easing the strain on them would give them some time to retreat, regroup and make some repairs. Alas, none of that happened. 

And I don't think we're even told if the Geth blockading the relay retained their upgrades. We never take that chance because Gerrel jumps straight into enemy lines to finish that one ship. In hindsight, he had a history of breaking line so I should have expected it. I don't think he charged in because he wanted to kill Shepard, even though I see why he wouldn't like my Shepard (seeing that I advocated for peace). I do think that he is too independent and narrow-sighted for a war that isn't going to be won with brute force. 

And that strategy is still a big improvement overe being mowed by the upgraded Geth. Losing a life-ship would cost him millions, many of those combat ready and able (which would have happened in the long run without Shepard's interference). With every boarding party that goes down you lose a few people. Good people but the numbers don't compare. Hypothetically speaking: if you send out 10k soldiers and 500 make it on the ships you already take a big chunk of the enemies' big guns out of the fight. It's bloody and a waste of good men but it's much better than losing the war. 

Modifié par CynicalShep, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:42 .

[Deathsaurer]

We already know Shepard was more important. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying the entire Quarian race has no reason to think that way at this time. I bet most of them would pick Shepard over Han'Gerrel and rightly so. But they're not going to up and sacrifice their entire race for them yet.

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

The fact that the Quarians know Shepard is gathering forces to save the galaxy against the Reapers then they most certainly know that his life is far more valuable than theirs.

Damnit this debate is just making me play ME3 and side with the Geth again but I'd have to go through that terribad Reaper fight. Ugggh.

its ok, I'll still sell Legion to the real heroes:bandit:

LOL

I love Miranda's pout when my Shep goes "lol no" to selling Legion.

(Honestly I wish I could've sold Grunt to Cerberus. Just to see if they made Krogan shock troops in ME3 ) 

Jacob's put when you sell it is almost as good

[Ryzaki]

Deathsaurer wrote...

We already know Shepard was more important. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying the entire Quarian race has no reason to think that way at this time. I bet most of them would pick Shepard over Han'Gerrel and rightly so. But they're not going to up and sacrifice their entire race for them yet.

First my arguement was Shepard was worth all their lives full stop. No matter what the Quarian race thought about it. And of COURSE they would sacrifice Shepard for their race. Every single race no matter the species would do the same. It's simple self preservation. If I met the dude who found Pencilin and it was my life vs his hell yeah I'd throw him under the bus (and then die later since I had to use Pencilin for this infection in my mouth revenge from the grave!)

That however does not mean that Shepard isn't worth all the lives aboard the Migrant Fleet. The lives Shep saves makes the MF look like a pittance in comparison. As Garrus said sometimes millions have to die so billion others can live.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:47 .

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...
Jacob's put when you sell it is almost as good

lol never saw that what does he say? 

[Deathsaurer]

And Shepard is. No one can really dispute that. Shepard is the one that convinced the Catalyst its solution was flawed, the one that ended the war.