190 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The difference is that in the case I could defeat either, I would do the utmost to preserve the Imperium's magical knowledge, while I'd destroy all copies of the Tome of Koslun I could find...

...well, not really, since I'm not into destroying books, but with the qunari it's the philosophy their society is built on I object to, while of the Imperium it's only certain practices. You can have a magocracy without slavery and blood sacrifice after all.

Archon Hessarian tried that.  Didn't last much past his lifetime before the Tevinters went right back to the same old practices (save in Andraste's name rather than the Old Gods)  Something a little more...drastic...will be needed.

As to the Tome of Koslun, yeah, I'd keep a few copies around.  Destroying knowledge is wasteful.  Better to preserve it.  To better understand the enemy, if nothing else.

[themageguy]

hhh89 wrote...

COMICS SPOILER:




It's Titus, not Aurelius. People speculate that he's referring the fact that qunari are related to dragons. The ability Titus used (if I understand rights) are based on the fact that he was powering himself with Maric's blood (Therins have dragon blood in their vein since Calenhad).
Anyway, I don't believe that every magister are evil. That doesn't change the fact that the slavery system they endorse is horrible. Even the common mages don't live a life that better in comparison o the Chantry Circles, since they still live in it and they have to fight against each ther to upgrade their situation.

whoops. Auto corrected Aurelian to Aurelius. Full names Aurelian Titus. Thanks.

[Potato Cat]

Wissenschaft wrote...

The Qun is, at its core, a caste system. One in which you are tested into your caste instead of directly born into it by your parents. I despise caste systems so the Qun is disgusting and reprehensible in my eyes.

Just since no one's really argued against this point so far, though I believe Silfren did point out Tevinter's class system, I suppose I'll take a stab at it.

There is no caste system in the Qun. At all. That's kind of the point of it. Society is divided into essentially soldiers, manufacturers and thinkers. But no one is above the other. Even under these three umbrellas, no one has any sort of superiority in the Qun. Zevran and Sten banter reveals a Crow was to assassinate a figure in Qunari society which by our standards would have been deemed highly important. She failed to assassinate this Qunari because she assumed they would have been well protected in a fortress so went deep in there, but the Qunari don't value one life over another's just because of their role, (with the possible exception of the Triumvirate, but we really don't have enough information).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ukki wrote...

So you are against birth dictated mage rulers with slavery and blood sacrifices aka Tevinter,

Yeup.

but support birth dictated society with slavery

The Qun is not birth-dictated. It's merit/test-dictated.

and mental re-education camps aka Qun?

Yes, to an extent. It's better than killing off all enemies to the state. That said, I'd prefer to just let defectors defect.

I support Tevinter, atleast they are not hypocrites. The Imperium needs to rise once more.

Qunari are not hypocrites, just tough cookies.

Tevinter is scum.

If the Qun had better policies towards defectors and was more progressive/less conservative in their views on magic, I'd be all "Ataash Qunari!!" all day long. Tevinter is just as oppressive, though, if not more, so the latter point is moot.

[Medhia Nox]

I think we should get rid of Mage, Rogue and Fighter - too much like the Qun.

[Wulfram]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Qun is not birth-dictated. It's merit/test-dictated.

Merit/test/whatever arbitrary nonsence the Talmassrans dream up.  The only concrete criteria we know about is sexism

[Potato Cat]

Wulfram wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Qun is not birth-dictated. It's merit/test-dictated.

Merit/test/whatever arbitrary nonsence the Talmassrans dream up.  The only concrete criteria we know about is sexism

Still don't really get the whole sexism argument with the Qunari. Studying brains we've learned that in the womb hormones essentially 'gender' us which can make our brains better at processing different kinds of information. Like women are generally more linguistic, hence only they become Tamassrans. And it's not even like a woman who is physically strong won't ever be able to use her skills in a fighting situation, she might become a Ben-Hassrath, or use her strength as a worker like a blacksmith.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Qun is not birth-dictated. It's merit/test-dictated.

Merit/test/whatever arbitrary nonsence the Talmassrans dream up.  The only concrete criteria we know about is sexism

Except that it isn't sexism. The Qunari don't believe that men or women are categorically better than the other. They believe men are better than women at certain roles, and vice versa. That isn't sexism.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Qun is not birth-dictated. It's merit/test-dictated.

Merit/test/whatever arbitrary nonsence the Talmassrans dream up.  The only concrete criteria we know about is sexism

Except that it isn't sexism. The Qunari don't believe that men or women are categorically better than the other. They believe men are better than women at certain roles, and vice versa. That isn't sexism.

So if we say Men are best at ruling and being lawyers and doctors, and women are best at housework and being secretaries and nurses, that's not sexist?

Now, Qunari of course choose different roles, but it amounts to the same thing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Qun is not birth-dictated. It's merit/test-dictated.

Merit/test/whatever arbitrary nonsence the Talmassrans dream up.  The only concrete criteria we know about is sexism

Except that it isn't sexism. The Qunari don't believe that men or women are categorically better than the other. They believe men are better than women at certain roles, and vice versa. That isn't sexism.

So if we say Men are best at ruling and being lawyers and doctors, and women are best at housework and being secretaries and nurses, that's not sexist?

Now, Qunari of course choose different roles, but it amounts to the same thing.

No it isn't sexist. The reason what you say is sexist, is because society see those latter tasks, as simpler task, that is therefore more fit to the simpler sex. The Qunari would not see it like that.
Sexism in our world is generated through a sense of superiority. The Qunari do not claim that men or women are superior to the other. All they say, is that the individual sexes are best suited at certain tasks.

[Vulpe]

Elfman wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Qun is not birth-dictated. It's merit/test-dictated.

Merit/test/whatever arbitrary nonsence the Talmassrans dream up.  The only concrete criteria we know about is sexism

Still don't really get the whole sexism argument with the Qunari. Studying brains we've learned that in the womb hormones essentially 'gender' us which can make our brains better at processing different kinds of information. Like women are generally more linguistic, hence only they become Tamassrans. And it's not even like a woman who is physically strong won't ever be able to use her skills in a fighting situation, she might become a Ben-Hassrath, or use her strength as a worker like a blacksmith.

Indeed female and male brains, as their bodies, are different, thing that makes them better suited for a job. But ( there is always a but) , when ot comes to the brain all those things are just minor perks. For example  women just starts with a slight advantage over men when it comes to communication skills. That doesn't mean that males can try to develop their communicative skills and vocabulary to compensate their biological deficit and reach a level equal or above to a woman. Also, there are other factors in play, like social intelligents, intelect as a whole, social experiences and many other things that can make a person better that others at certain tasks that others, no matter the gender.

When it comes to the body a male in his top condition will be more powerful than a woman in her top condition. Still, that doesn't mean that she can't train in the use of a wepon and surpass a male enemy in melee combat. After all, that's why weapons are made.Also, there are cases when weaker warriors beat the more experienced and strong ones.If things are so, why a woman that is trained and skilled couldn't fight beside the men ?

She just has to be careful to not end in a fist fight or let herself caught in a man's grip. She has to fight smart and hit the weak points of the body while been defensive so that she wouldn't end up with a fist in the face. If that happens, things can go pretty bad.

In the end, all those advantages (physical and mental) and disadvantages men and women have are just minor boosts (or handicaps) that can be surpassed/enhanced by the other gender with enough work. It's just a matter of adaptability.

[Androme]

 Tevinter all the way.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 All they say, is that the individual sexes are best suited at certain tasks.

Which is sexist whether or not they regard those tasks as inferior. But it's probably pointless to argue semantics.

But I do think it is a sign of arbitrariness in role assignment that this should be a hard criteria

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 décembre 2013 - 06:54 .

[Ianamus]

If I absolutely had to choose one over the other it would have to be the Qun. As restrictive as it may be the average person has a much better quality of life than the average person in Tevinter.

[DRTJR]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 All they say, is that the individual sexes are best suited at certain tasks.

Which is sexist whether or not they regard those tasks as inferior. But it's probably pointless to argue semantics.

But I do think it is a sign of arbitrariness in role assignment that this should be a hard criteria

The Priests, mechants, and a good portion of their SS are all female. I almost think they got the better end of the Qun 

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Elfman wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Qun is not birth-dictated. It's merit/test-dictated.

Merit/test/whatever arbitrary nonsence the Talmassrans dream up.  The only concrete criteria we know about is sexism

Still don't really get the whole sexism argument with the Qunari. Studying brains we've learned that in the womb hormones essentially 'gender' us which can make our brains better at processing different kinds of information. Like women are generally more linguistic, hence only they become Tamassrans. And it's not even like a woman who is physically strong won't ever be able to use her skills in a fighting situation, she might become a Ben-Hassrath, or use her strength as a worker like a blacksmith.

Indeed female and male brains, as their bodies, are different, thing that makes them better suited for a job. But ( there is always a but) , when ot comes to the brain all those things are just minor perks. For example  women just starts with a slight advantage over men when it comes to communication skills. That doesn't mean that males can try to develop their communicative skills and vocabulary to compensate their biological deficit and reach a level equal or above to a woman. Also, there are other factors in play, like social intelligents, intelect as a whole, social experiences and many other things that can make a person better that others at certain tasks that others, no matter the gender.

When it comes to the body a male in his top condition will be more powerful than a woman in her top condition. Still, that doesn't mean that she can't train in the use of a wepon and surpass a male enemy in melee combat. After all, that's why weapons are made.Also, there are cases when weaker warriors beat the more experienced and strong ones.If things are so, why a woman that is trained and skilled couldn't fight beside the men ?

She just has to be careful to not end in a fist fight or let herself caught in a man's grip. She has to fight smart and hit the weak points of the body while been defensive so that she wouldn't end up with a fist in the face. If that happens, things can go pretty bad.

In the end, all those advantages (physical and mental) and disadvantages men and women have are just minor boosts (or handicaps) that can be surpassed/enhanced by the other gender with enough work. It's just a matter of adaptability.

It is not a matter of potential for the Qunari, but a question of why. WHy should a female ever bother with trainning to become a soldier? Important to note that it is only a SOLDIER they can't become, fighters like the Ben-Hassrath are indeed females aswell as male. If the female is never going to excel as much as the males as a soldier, then why should she bother at all? If she has no hope of ever being the best, then what does she have to strive for? Would it not be better then, to have a profession, where she can put her talents to use to the fullest, and strive for excellency aswell?

[Ianamus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

Elfman wrote...

Still don't really get the whole sexism argument with the Qunari. Studying brains we've learned that in the womb hormones essentially 'gender' us which can make our brains better at processing different kinds of information. Like women are generally more linguistic, hence only they become Tamassrans. And it's not even like a woman who is physically strong won't ever be able to use her skills in a fighting situation, she might become a Ben-Hassrath, or use her strength as a worker like a blacksmith.

Indeed female and male brains, as their bodies, are different, thing that makes them better suited for a job. But ( there is always a but) , when ot comes to the brain all those things are just minor perks. For example  women just starts with a slight advantage over men when it comes to communication skills. That doesn't mean that males can try to develop their communicative skills and vocabulary to compensate their biological deficit and reach a level equal or above to a woman. Also, there are other factors in play, like social intelligents, intelect as a whole, social experiences and many other things that can make a person better that others at certain tasks that others, no matter the gender.

When it comes to the body a male in his top condition will be more powerful than a woman in her top condition. Still, that doesn't mean that she can't train in the use of a wepon and surpass a male enemy in melee combat. After all, that's why weapons are made.Also, there are cases when weaker warriors beat the more experienced and strong ones.If things are so, why a woman that is trained and skilled couldn't fight beside the men ?

She just has to be careful to not end in a fist fight or let herself caught in a man's grip. She has to fight smart and hit the weak points of the body while been defensive so that she wouldn't end up with a fist in the face. If that happens, things can go pretty bad.

In the end, all those advantages (physical and mental) and disadvantages men and women have are just minor boosts (or handicaps) that can be surpassed/enhanced by the other gender with enough work. It's just a matter of adaptability.

It is not a matter of potential for the Qunari, but a question of why. WHy should a female ever bother with trainning to become a soldier? Important to note that it is only a SOLDIER they can't become, fighters like the Ben-Hassrath are indeed females aswell as male. If the female is never going to excel as much as the males as a soldier, then why should she bother at all? If she has no hope of ever being the best, then what does she have to strive for? Would it not be better then, to have a profession, where she can put her talents to use to the fullest, and strive for excellency aswell?

I struggle to believe that there has never been a single Qunari women who would have been far more suited to combat and physical roles than whatever she was assigned, just as I struggle to believe that there has never been a male Qunari who would have been far better at a female-only role than whatever he was assigned. 

Sure, males may be genetically predispositioned to be better at certain roles, as are females, but there will always be outliers.

Modifié par EJ107, 10 décembre 2013 - 07:03 .

[Hellion Rex]

EJ107 wrote...

I struggle to believe that there has never been a single Qunari women who would have been far more suited to combat and physical roles than whatever she was assigned, just as I struggle to believe that there has never been a male Qunari who would have been far better at a female-only role than whatever he was assigned. 

Sure, males may be genetically predispositioned to be better at certain roles, as are females, but there will always be outliers.

We just know what the general approach is to the "roles". There might very well be exceptions made to the system. We might just not be privy to that information at the moment.

[Ianamus]

eluvianix wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I struggle to believe that there has never been a single Qunari women who would have been far more suited to combat and physical roles than whatever she was assigned, just as I struggle to believe that there has never been a male Qunari who would have been far better at a female-only role than whatever he was assigned. 

Sure, males may be genetically predispositioned to be better at certain roles, as are females, but there will always be outliers.

We just know what the general approach is to the "roles". There might very well be exceptions made to the system. We might just not be privy to that information at the moment.

Sten say's that soldiers are male, to the point where he claims a female Warden must be a male, so It appears that Quanri women just aren't allowed to become soldiers by default. "Why would a woman want to be a man?" Is what is said specifically, I think. 

Of course, whether or not there ever has been a female Qunari who "wanted to be a man" and become a soldier is up for debate. I have a feeling most in this situation would either be re-educated or become Tal'Vashoth, though. 

Modifié par EJ107, 10 décembre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Wulfram]

eluvianix wrote...

We just know what the general approach is to the "roles". There might very well be exceptions made to the system. We might just not be privy to that information at the moment.

Well, we know exceptions are rare enough for Sten to be utterly baffled at the concept of a female Warden.

Unless he really was flirting, I guess.

[The Baconer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This all brings a big question on brainwashing... If you live a happy life after brainwashing...could it relaly be considered bad?
You might say "But the me of before wouldn't like it". Maybe (hard to say), but the you of now doesn't give a rats ass about the you of before. Why is the you of before more important? Why is he right?

If ones goal in life is a happy life, does the means to achieve it matter? Should they?

BEGIN DEBATE NOW.

I agree. I propose that each slave-owner in Tevinter sacrifice every 6th slave to power blood magic spells that will induce happiness or euphoria among their peers.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I love how the Qunari "brainwashes" their populace, just because they teach a different ideal than what you are used to. Funny how fine the line between education and brainwashing is, eh?

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I love how the Qunari "brainwashes" their populace, just because they teach a different ideal than what you are used to. Funny how fine the line between education and brainwashing is, eh?

I don't know about the others, but I solely referred to qamek when I said brainwash. If I would have lived in the DA setting I would most likely get brainwashed with qamek by the qunari.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 10 décembre 2013 - 07:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

If you lived in the Thedas setting, you would most likely be a peasant, and you wold probably cherish the aspect of meritocracy from the Qunari far more than you realize.

[DRTJR]

 "Education"




Isabela is heading for a "Re-Education" here

Modifié par DRTJR, 10 décembre 2013 - 07:34 .