161 réponses à ce sujet

[Isichar]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Are you suggesting she is capable of faking her own decapitation without any knowledge or preperation beforehand?

To be fair I really should give Bioware a fair chance to explain how she could still be alive, I am just extremely skeptical it will be done so in a way that does not feel forced.

That "decapitation" you're saying happened was only a gameplay abstraction. A kill animation. It has absolutely no more significance than that.

Maybe it should (and maybe that's why Bioware moved away from kill animations), but it doesn't. You're straining at a gnat.

The point is you can lie to yourself and ignore continuity if you want, as many gladly will. But we all know that it is possible to kill Lelianna in DA:O, regardless of whether you performed a finishing blow or not. She did not fake her death, she did not get knocked out, she died (if you chose to corrupt the ashes that is). Treating characters deaths so casually cheapens the value.

[Isichar]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Isichar wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Are you suggesting she is capable of faking her own decapitation without any knowledge or preperation beforehand?

To be fair I really should give Bioware a fair chance to explain how she could still be alive, I am just extremely skeptical it will be done so in a way that does not feel forced.

That "decapitation" you're saying happened was only a gameplay abstraction. A kill animation. It has absolutely no more significance than that.

Maybe it should (and maybe that's why Bioware moved away from kill animations), but it doesn't. You're straining at a gnat.

The point is you can lie to yourself and ignore continuity if you want, as many gladly will. But we all know that it is possible to kill Lelianna in DA:O, regardless of whether you performed a finishing blow or not. She did not fake her death, she did not get knocked out, she died (if you chose to corrupt the ashes that is). Treating characters deaths so casually cheapens the value.

No.

You're handwaving the point about decapitation now that I've refuted it. I'm keeping the whole pyramid so you can see that your entire argument was based on that.

And, no we do not know she is dead. We know she fought the Warden when the Warden defiled the ashes, and we know we brought her HP to zero, after which we looted her body. We know nothing more.

You refuted it by stating your opinion that it should not matter? Not quite, but your welcome to tell yourself that.

The game only performed a killing blow because it recognizes something as dying. The KB is simply a random animation chance, just because the animation does not occur does not mean the character did not die. Mechanically the game aknowledged her as dead.

You probably still don't think that matters. Well congrats, there is absolutely no death that cannot be retconned because you are basically stating there is no way possible to ever be sure if anything happening onscreen is how the events are actually happening.

I really hope Bioware has more standards then that. I cannot say they will not do a decent job of explaining it because I dont know what they have planned, but if they do decide to go with the "she just got knocked out" route then I will call it weak storytelling, because thats exactly what it is. Weak storytelling with no conviction. I know Bioware is capable of doing better then that.

Modifié par Isichar, 11 décembre 2013 - 06:40 .

[TeamLexana]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

I just hope Anders/Justice stays dead for peeps that murder knifed him at the end of DA2. No more terrorists for companions either please.

its already been confirmed that if you kill Anders in DA2 he is dead. As for Justice its a spirt so it never really "dies" as far as we know.

Yay. No more crazy Anders if we don't like it! I wouldn't be opposed to a little something for the peeps that did like him but since I didn't, I'd like him to rot in hell in my game to never be seen again. Kinda like a Nathenial Howe type of thing? If he survived Awakening, you could get a quest for him in Act 3 I think? But if he didn't for whatever reason (or if the plot flag was wrong and he lived but you didn't have him with you for the final fight and it glitched that he was dead) then viola, no Nathienal. Or, there is always the Wrex/Wreav thing too, that'd work. 

[Airell]

They will bring in a doppelgänger for Lelianna explain her death but than that will make those who romanced her to wander if she was the real thing.

[Killdren88]

I really don't see the problem with this. Characters in other stories who we thought were dead come back all the time. Why is this different? Because you feel cheated? Now you know how the characters who did the killing in other stories feel.

[Star fury]

Great, another **** troll thread about a theme that was already discussed ad nauseum gets dev's response.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Star fury wrote...

Great, another **** troll thread about a theme that was already discussed ad nauseum gets dev's response.

At least they're not replying to TheButterflyEffect again.

[senorbluez88]

Star fury wrote...

Great, another **** troll thread about a theme that was already discussed ad nauseum gets dev's response.

This^

[Conduit0]

Isichar wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Isichar wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Are you suggesting she is capable of faking her own decapitation without any knowledge or preperation beforehand?

To be fair I really should give Bioware a fair chance to explain how she could still be alive, I am just extremely skeptical it will be done so in a way that does not feel forced.

That "decapitation" you're saying happened was only a gameplay abstraction. A kill animation. It has absolutely no more significance than that.

Maybe it should (and maybe that's why Bioware moved away from kill animations), but it doesn't. You're straining at a gnat.

The point is you can lie to yourself and ignore continuity if you want, as many gladly will. But we all know that it is possible to kill Lelianna in DA:O, regardless of whether you performed a finishing blow or not. She did not fake her death, she did not get knocked out, she died (if you chose to corrupt the ashes that is). Treating characters deaths so casually cheapens the value.

No.

You're handwaving the point about decapitation now that I've refuted it. I'm keeping the whole pyramid so you can see that your entire argument was based on that.

And, no we do not know she is dead. We know she fought the Warden when the Warden defiled the ashes, and we know we brought her HP to zero, after which we looted her body. We know nothing more.

You refuted it by stating your opinion that it should not matter? Not quite, but your welcome to tell yourself that.

The game only performed a killing blow because it recognizes something as dying. The KB is simply a random animation chance, just because the animation does not occur does not mean the character did not die. Mechanically the game aknowledged her as dead.

The kill animation does not matter because it can happen even when the character is very much in fact not dead. You can decapitate Zevran during your first meeting, however when the fight ends, he is still very much alive and head firmly attached to his shoulders. Kill anamations are completely random and do not take story into account when they occur, so characters can be executed even when the story says you didn't fight them to the death.

Further, how can you be certain Leliana is dead? Did your Warden check her pulse, stab her a few more times for good measure, perform an autopsy, cremate her body? No? Than how the bloody hell can you say she's dead? You can not state something as FACT, when you have no actual proof.

[Eralrik]

Hey look the Maker really was talking to Lelianna way back in DA:O said she was meant for a greater purpose and would protect her even through death. Thus she is reborn and serves the chantry as the Divines right hand.
Not to say Lelianna the Bard isn't gonna remember the betrayel at the warden's hand's and divert an army to find him/her and bring them before the Divine.

<Me I just adore Lelianna and her singing at the camp fire and a valued member of my Wardens party>

Modifié par Eralrik, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:56 .

[Darth Krytie]

To further that point (and I didn't go back to see if this point's been made before), your character can 'die' and still be alive. In the fight with Ser Cauthrien, you can 'die' in that battle and still wake up in jail later with Alistair.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:55 .

[Otacon]

if we'll talk about killing companions and rising from the dead, you guys might as well look at DAO's ending if you choose to sacrifice the hero..

[Conduit0]

Darth Krytie wrote...

To further that point (and I didn't go back to see if this point's been made before), your character can 'die' and still be alive. In the fight with Ser Cauthrien, you can 'die' in that battle and still wake up in jail later with Alistair.

For that matter, any of the characters can 'die' during combat, but once the fights over they all pop right back up like nothing ever happened.

[Spectre slayer]

Sigh the decapitation animation is not being tracked, you don't cut her head off, you do "kill" or try to kill her but she comes back to life any number of ways or was just very close to being dead and we didn't finish her off.

The biggest example of this is Howe who you can decapitate and then in the very next scene his head is on his shoulders and you get his death seen and it happens a few more times over the course of the game.

She will react to you "killing" her but that's all.

Modifié par Spectre slayer, 11 décembre 2013 - 10:37 .

[Aaleel]

This never bothered me much as I only did it once just to have the flag on a save. But please don't insult my intelligence or my Warden's by saying there is any reason she should be alive. We fought, she was defeated, my Warden looted her body for goodness sake. My Warden isn't the type to move on without ensuring someone like her was dead.

But if Anders can use a body double, Zevren can come back and most absurdly your Ultimate sacrifice Warden can come back in Awakenings, why this one always bothers people I don't know.

But after reading the Gaider's post earlier in this which said your choices are good just for the game there in I know the rules and what to expect now. So its really no point in trying to make a particular save file anymore seeing none of it will probably matter after the current game.

Modifié par Aaleel, 11 décembre 2013 - 01:32 .

[In Exile]

Aaleel wrote...

This never bothered me much as I only did it once just to have the flag on a save. But please don't insult my intelligence or my Warden's by saying there is any reason she should be alive. We fought, she was defeated, my Warden looted her body for goodness sake. My Warden isn't the type to move on without ensuring someone like her was dead.

Yes. You killed her. In the room with the magical healing dust powdere  that basically revives Arl Eamon from the dead. The room filled with all manner of spirits that we've seen - with Wynne - can also raise the dead.

[addiction21]

Aaleel wrote...


But if Anders can use a body double, Zevren can come back and most absurdly your Ultimate sacrifice Warden can come back in Awakenings, why this one always bothers people I don't know.

Zevren is a known bug with the flags and anyone getting upset their Warden comes back in Awakenings only has themselves to blame.

The only thing absurd about importing a dead warden into Awakenings is that people blame BioWare for providing that option.

[Aaleel]

In Exile wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

This never bothered me much as I only did it once just to have the flag on a save. But please don't insult my intelligence or my Warden's by saying there is any reason she should be alive. We fought, she was defeated, my Warden looted her body for goodness sake. My Warden isn't the type to move on without ensuring someone like her was dead.

Yes. You killed her. In the room with the magical healing dust powdere  that basically revives Arl Eamon from the dead. The room filled with all manner of spirits that we've seen - with Wynne - can also raise the dead.

Power that you defiled which set off this entire chain of events.  Speaking of Wynne does she show up in Awakenings if you kill her at that same time in that same room, nope.  If Bioware wants to try and explain this in DA:I because people have complained about it so much then fine.  But like I said let's not try and act like this was part of the story and backed up by the game from the start.  If that's the case then no one is dead.  I should be able to drop by the urn at any time if it wasn't defiled and lay a body in the room, or take some ashes and happy day,

Modifié par Aaleel, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Aaleel]

addiction21 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...


But if Anders can use a body double, Zevren can come back and most absurdly your Ultimate sacrifice Warden can come back in Awakenings, why this one always bothers people I don't know.

Zevren is a known bug with the flags and anyone getting upset their Warden comes back in Awakenings only has themselves to blame.

The only thing absurd about importing a dead warden into Awakenings is that people blame BioWare for providing that option.

I don't get upset about any of them, I always just wonder why people focus on this one so much with everything else that's happened.

Modifié par Aaleel, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:46 .

[Conduit0]

Aaleel wrote...

This never bothered me much as I only did it once just to have the flag on a save. But please don't insult my intelligence or my Warden's by saying there is any reason she should be alive. We fought, she was defeated, my Warden looted her body for goodness sake. My Warden isn't the type to move on without ensuring someone like her was dead.

Don't insult your intelligence? Give me a break, the game does not recoginize nor care about your damn head canon. If the game doesn't show a cutscene of your Warden, 'ensuring someone like her was dead' then it bloody well never happened as far as the game is concerned.

[HiroVoid]

addiction21 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...


But if Anders can use a body double, Zevren can come back and most absurdly your Ultimate sacrifice Warden can come back in Awakenings, why this one always bothers people I don't know.

Zevren is a known bug with the flags and anyone getting upset their Warden comes back in Awakenings only has themselves to blame.

The only thing absurd about importing a dead warden into Awakenings is that people blame BioWare for providing that option.

Except it's not an option.  If you want to import your game while having a new warden, you don't have that option.

[In Exile]

Aaleel wrote...
Power that you defiled which set off this entire chain of events.  

No. There are two explanations for the ashes: (i) they are literally blessed by an actual god or (ii) the mountain itself has magical properties that were passed to the ashes. In either case, the healing power of the ashes is always a consequence of an external force. Defiling the ashes might wreck the ashes, but it can't (i) harm the maker or (ii) corrupt the mountain itself (which, as Oghren explains, is full of Lyrium). 

But like I said let's not try and act like this was part of the story and backed up by the game from the start.  If that's the case then no one is dead.  I should be able to drop by the urn at any time if it wasn't defiled and lay a body in the room, or take some ashes and happy day, 

My problem isn't with people being frustrated at the fact Bioware didn't fully defer to the outcome the say. My problem is with the hypocrisy: the fact that the complaint is that Bioware is insulting player's intelligence while using half-cocked arguments that aren't even consistent with the basic lore that DA:O sets out as an explanation for what happens at the mountain. 

If Bioware comes up with a stupid explanation, that's on them. But there are perfectly lore consistent ones. 

[addiction21]

HiroVoid wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...


But if Anders can use a body double, Zevren can come back and most absurdly your Ultimate sacrifice Warden can come back in Awakenings, why this one always bothers people I don't know.

Zevren is a known bug with the flags and anyone getting upset their Warden comes back in Awakenings only has themselves to blame.

The only thing absurd about importing a dead warden into Awakenings is that people blame BioWare for providing that option.

Except it's not an option.  If you want to import your game while having a new warden, you don't have that option.

Yes it is a option. You can choose to import your world state. Which you either have a live warden or a dead one. The discussion is about people being upset about the dead coming back from life and yes there have been plenty of people complaining about how their Warden who sacrificed themselves came back in Awakenings.

Yes, I would like there to have been importing a Sacrifice game and play as the new Warden c'est la vie and that's not the discussion.

[Isichar]

Conduit0 wrote...

The kill animation does not matter because it can happen even when the character is very much in fact not dead. You can decapitate Zevran during your first meeting, however when the fight ends, he is still very much alive and head firmly attached to his shoulders. Kill anamations are completely random and do not take story into account when they occur, so characters can be executed even when the story says you didn't fight them to the death.

1 is a glitch and the other was intended.

Conduit0 wrote...

Further, how can you be certain Leliana is dead? Did your Warden check
her pulse, stab her a few more times for good measure, perform an
autopsy, cremate her body? No? Than how the bloody hell can you say
she's dead? You can not state something as FACT, when you have no actual
proof.

Answered this twice now. You cannot prove without a doubt that anyone has actually died in the story. I cant prove Logain died, can't prove Howe died, can't prove anything because you have already accepted that watching the character die does not matter. You can just say they faked their own death, even though Lelianna had absolutely no time whatsoever beforehand to prepare she somehow manages to fake her own death? Complete BS and you know it even if you wont admit it.

You have created a situation in which there is absolutely 0 standards of continuity. They could literally bring back every single character that died in DA:O and DA2 and you could come up with some stupid excuse to why it works and people like you would bend over backwards to accept it, thats fine for you, but I expect better.

Modifié par Isichar, 12 décembre 2013 - 02:48 .