161 réponses à ce sujet

[Paul E Dangerously]

I think part of the problem is that (comic book logic aside) there's nothing hinting that Leliana could have or should have survived if you killed her. I know they don't think ahead that far, but there are ways a scene could be written to leave an "out" so it's not as "Hey, what the hell is this" when NPC X shows up perfectly fine with no explanation whatsoever at a later date.

[Bacusan]

Question, maybe is not important but if the Keep lets us choose our stories, can we kill our DA:O warden and have a new guy on DA:A???

[Conduit0]

Isichar wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

The kill animation does not matter because it can happen even when the character is very much in fact not dead. You can decapitate Zevran during your first meeting, however when the fight ends, he is still very much alive and head firmly attached to his shoulders. Kill anamations are completely random and do not take story into account when they occur, so characters can be executed even when the story says you didn't fight them to the death.

1 is a glitch and the other was intended.

Conduit0 wrote...

Further, how can you be certain Leliana is dead? Did your Warden check
her pulse, stab her a few more times for good measure, perform an
autopsy, cremate her body? No? Than how the bloody hell can you say
she's dead? You can not state something as FACT, when you have no actual
proof.

Answered this twice now. You cannot prove without a doubt that anyone has actually died in the story. I cant prove Logain died, can't prove Howe died, can't prove anything because you have already accepted that watching the character die does not matter. You can just say they faked their own death, even though Lelianna had absolutely no time whatsoever beforehand to prepare she somehow manages to fake her own death? Complete BS and you know it even if you wont admit it.

You have created a situation in which there is absolutely 0 standards of continuity. They could literally bring back every single character that died in DA:O and DA2 and you could come up with some stupid excuse to why it works and people like you would bend over backwards to accept it, thats fine for you, but I expect better.

I'm going to try to explain this as simply as possible so you can understand. Combat(and gameplay in general) is an abstraction seperated from the narative, therefore, things can happen during combat that are not reflected in the narative, or to make it even simpler, death in combat does not always equal death in story. Logain and Howe are dead because the story says they're dead, in fact they die in cutscenes, not during combat. Leliana dies in combat, but there is no story follow up confirming her dead, and seeing as people die in combat and then spring back to life the moment combat ends all the bloody time, combat death is utterly meaningless by its self.

So no, I do have a standard of continutity, it just doesn't involve me stubbornly demanding that BioWare cater to my personal assumptions about situations the story did not expressly state.

[KC_Prototype]

Ericander77 wrote...

Guys, this thread is getting nasty. Let's all try and be respectful.

Bioware is one of the few game companies that have games that carry over. If you don't like it, you don't have to import. Many players love the import system.

How's It getting nasty?

[KC_Prototype]

Taleroth wrote...

KC_Prototype wrote...

Also, it's Dragon Age, death doesn't quite have the hold on people like other games.

Dragon Age has equal or more certain death than most other fantasy settings you can name.

Leliana is the only instance of resurrection ever witnessed. To the point that the devs have tried handwaving it as her not really dying.

Try killing Morrigan or Flemeth? Corypheus? The blood mage from DA2?

[KC_Prototype]

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
He said that they can't plan ahead to account for all possibilities, and that the Leliana situation is a possible result of that. I also understand the attitude. Let's be honest: there are much bigger fish to fry than the retconned death of a companion.

Leliana's death even being an issue is more a result of finishing move animations than anything else.  If it wasn't fo rth epotential decapitation, I doubt this would nearly as much scowling.   I mean, how many people rage about Morrigan's return with "Hey, I murder-knifed her!"?

Yeah, people gotta understand it was gameplay kill, not even a cinematic kill so it was it written in stone.

[KC_Prototype]

For the people ****ing about Leliana being killed and no brought back to life, it was a plot devise. Bioware wanted to use her in a bigger story for DA2 and DA:I so quit it. I like Leliana and didn't kill her in any of my play throughs I killed Flemeth all the time and she's still alive, I'm not mad, I'm excited to see what Bioware has planned for her in DA:I. That's what people should doing.

[Hellion Rex]

KC_Prototype wrote...

For the people ****ing about Leliana being killed and no brought back to life, it was a plot devise. Bioware wanted to use her in a bigger story for DA2 and DA:I so quit it. I like Leliana and didn't kill her in any of my play throughs I killed Flemeth all the time and she's still alive, I'm not mad, I'm excited to see what Bioware has planned for her in DA:I. That's what people should doing.

Are people seriously still raging over Leliana?

Modifié par eluvianix, 12 décembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Isichar]

Conduit0 wrote...

I'm going to try to explain this as simply as possible so you can understand. Combat(and gameplay in general) is an abstraction seperated from the narative, therefore, things can happen during combat that are not reflected in the narative, or to make it even simpler, death in combat does not always equal death in story. Logain and Howe are dead because the story says they're dead, in fact they die in cutscenes, not during combat. Leliana dies in combat, but there is no story follow up confirming her dead, and seeing as people die in combat and then spring back to life the moment combat ends all the bloody time, combat death is utterly meaningless by its self.

So no, I do have a standard of continutity, it just doesn't involve me stubbornly demanding that BioWare cater to my personal assumptions about situations the story did not expressly state.

If you can play through DA:O get to that scene and believe that the writers did not kill her off in that branch of the story then go for it, you will enjoy DA:I more then me. I want the writers to commit to the story they are writing, and not just change it a game or two later and give some weak reasoning like "oh, you forgot to check the pulse" .

Ftr Bioware has killed a character in a cinematic and still brought that character back, and it is not something that bothered me for a few reasons: 1. It was clearly planned, 2. It served a purpose, 3. It was an effective player gutpunch for those who did not expect it.

I like Leliana, its my personal prefrence to keep her alive but not at the expense of the writing. If the best explanation you can come up with is "she just got knocked out" and believe that they intended that when the scene was originally done, and that it is good writing, then all the more power to you.

[Paul E Dangerously]

KC_Prototype wrote...

For the people ****ing about Leliana being killed and no brought back to life, it was a plot devise. Bioware wanted to use her in a bigger story for DA2 and DA:I so quit it. I like Leliana and didn't kill her in any of my play throughs I killed Flemeth all the time and she's still alive, I'm not mad, I'm excited to see what Bioware has planned for her in DA:I. That's what people should doing.

The difference is that Bioware went out of their way to tell you several times Flemeth (and Morrigan, I suppose) have a pretty well-defined "out". She's an ancient mage who's possibly no longer human and has cheated death dozens of times before, and Morrigan even tells you to your face afterward that it's just a minor inconvenience. I really don't think anyone thought Flemeth was dead for real dead, unless they had their fingers stuck in their ears the entire time.

Leliana, though? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

[Magdalena11]

Who knows? Maybe Leliana has a deal with Andraste or the Maker? I am tempted to say I tried to kill her even though I didn't just to see what happens but I don't want to waste a lot of gameplay for a 30 second explanation. I'll just wait until the YouTube videos start coming out.

[WhiteKnyght]

Leliana lived, deal with it.

Decapitation was a game mechanic determined by finishing with a critical hit, not a story device.

Whether or not she just wasn't that badly hurt, whether he had a poultice&injury kit tucked away, or her corpse was possessed by Andraste in an Anders fashion is irrelevant.


The same could arguably be said about Wynne at the Circle Tower. She had a spirit in her body that sustained her life even though she should be dead. Asunder revealed that the spirit was all that kept her alive, so if that's the case, why would the Warden sticking her with a sword really kill her? She probably got up, shrugged it off, and got the hell out of dodge after the Warden killed Uldred.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

KC_Prototype wrote...

For the people ****ing about Leliana being killed and no brought back to life, it was a plot devise. Bioware wanted to use her in a bigger story for DA2 and DA:I so quit it. I like Leliana and didn't kill her in any of my play throughs I killed Flemeth all the time and she's still alive, I'm not mad, I'm excited to see what Bioware has planned for her in DA:I. That's what people should doing.

The difference is that Bioware went out of their way to tell you several times Flemeth (and Morrigan, I suppose) have a pretty well-defined "out". She's an ancient mage who's possibly no longer human and has cheated death dozens of times before, and Morrigan even tells you to your face afterward that it's just a minor inconvenience. I really don't think anyone thought Flemeth was dead for real dead, unless they had their fingers stuck in their ears the entire time.

Leliana, though? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

Except her dying right next to the magic relic that can heal any wound or near-death status? That's not telegraphing anything... at all...

[In Exile]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Leliana, though? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

Leliana died either (i) next to the remains of the mortal bride of an actual god or (ii) in a mountain so filled with lyrium it turned ash into magical healing ash. Either way, Leliana died under circumstances where there is an external force that gave leftover stuff from burning the power to heal, meaning that outside force could have saved her. 

[TK514]

Not to be a naysayer, because I happen to agree that the Leliana thing is blown way out of proportion, but...

Couldn't you 'kill' her back at camp if you told her what you did after the fact? I never tried, but I seem to recall hearing that was the case.

[Aaleel]

In Exile wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Leliana, though? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

Leliana died either (i) next to the remains of the mortal bride of an actual god or (ii) in a mountain so filled with lyrium it turned ash into magical healing ash. Either way, Leliana died under circumstances where there is an external force that gave leftover stuff from burning the power to heal, meaning that outside force could have saved her. 

then Wynne should have gotten up and walked out to if she was there.  But she doesn't, she is absent from Awakenings.  Look I get it the writers liked the character, fans liked the character, I like the character so they hand waved that scene from the game to bring her back.  But if we're going to act like that place has that much healing power Grey Wardens would be lined up out the door there rather than going on their callings.   People coming back from the dead is a huge step to take and throw out there.

[Aaleel]

TK514 wrote...

Not to be a naysayer, because I happen to agree that the Leliana thing is blown way out of proportion, but...

Couldn't you 'kill' her back at camp if you told her what you did after the fact? I never tried, but I seem to recall hearing that was the case.

She asks about the quest and leaves if your persuade isn't high enough.  Wynne leaves regardless.

[QueenPurpleScrap]

I understand why some people get upset, though I never killed Leliana. I mean she never attacked me and I struck her down and left her for dead because she wasn't with me the only time I played 'destroy the ashes, destroy the ASHES, DEstroy the ASHes . . .' Sorry.

It was irritating to see Zevran if I killed him or to never have him acknowledge our romance and that I still lived. That was an acknowledged bug. OK, stuff happens.

BUT, I think of the Keep and save/import not as shaping/defining the world ingame but as flavoring it. Seeing Sophia Dryden in DA2 in one playthrough acknowledged my previous decision but didn't change the world. It substituted brussel spouts for broccoli but didn't change the fact that I had a green vegetable on my plate. Certainly some decisions may have more impact overall, such as what you did with Alistair. Ten years or more later even these decisions will become less relevant to the current game [meaning any future game, not just DAI], probably.

Word of warning: this does not mean that I won't voice my opinion if I think something is way over the top/out of line/inconsistent/unbelievable, LOL. I am certainly not going to rehash old arguments. But I have enough stress in RL without encouraging it in my gaming unnecessarily.

[BouncyFrag]

The further we get from DAO, the greater my want/concern for save imports lessens. I'd rather have newer characters and content. I'd be more positive about this if I thought a great job had been done with our save imports in DA2.

[Demx]

Aaleel wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Not to be a naysayer, because I happen to agree that the Leliana thing is blown way out of proportion, but...

Couldn't you 'kill' her back at camp if you told her what you did after the fact? I never tried, but I seem to recall hearing that was the case.

She asks about the quest and leaves if your persuade isn't high enough.  Wynne leaves regardless.

Got to love the glitch where if you leave both Wynne and Leliana behind; only Wynne leaves after desecrating the ashes.

[Vulpe]

What about when alive characters magically disappear ?

[Spectre slayer]

Siradix wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Not to be a naysayer, because I happen to agree that the Leliana thing is blown way out of proportion, but...

Couldn't you 'kill' her back at camp if you told her what you did after the fact? I never tried, but I seem to recall hearing that was the case.

She asks about the quest and leaves if your persuade isn't high enough.  Wynne leaves regardless.

Got to love the glitch where if you leave both Wynne and Leliana behind; only Wynne leaves after desecrating the ashes.

That's not a glitch, if you pass the check she stays but Wynne will leave no matter what, also if you bring a hardened Leliana with you and pick the right choice and pass the speech check she will merely disapprove of you defileing the ashes.

If she's unhardened she attacks you no matter what and you "kill" her or attempt to.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Leliana has more of a potential excuse to be alive than Oghren.

[Magdalena11]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Leliana has more of a potential excuse to be alive than Oghren.

Why wouldn't Oghren be alive?  He can leave or be kicked out of the party but I don't remember any chance to kill him in DAO or DAA.  Is there something I missed or would the calling have got him after only 8 years?  Duncan was starting to get hints of his calling after 20 years so I suppose it's possible.

[Nightdragon8]

Magdalena11 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Leliana has more of a potential excuse to be alive than Oghren.

Why wouldn't Oghren be alive?  He can leave or be kicked out of the party but I don't remember any chance to kill him in DAO or DAA.  Is there something I missed or would the calling have got him after only 8 years?  Duncan was starting to get hints of his calling after 20 years so I suppose it's possible.

Or be killed in the deeproads... You can kill him, but he pops up agian in DAA without a care.

Also why is this still even being talking about... Leliana is alive "deal with it".  (please someone insert a proper gif/jpg here)

Leliana is alive because they want her alive.

Yes they now know that in order to stop BSNer's from rasining hell that they should only allow characters to die when they will really be dead later on. Sadly this topic will always pop up no matter how many games down the road they make.