8 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthGizka]

My party - a DW rogue assassin, Alistair, Morrigan and Wynne - is level 11 except for Alistair who is level 10. The reception committee at the Frostback Mountain Pass (bounty hunters) was tougher than Slothy and Uldred combined; in particular, the melee types shredded Alistair as if his massive templar armour were wet paper. Even though he was tanking only two enemies, they brought him from fully healed to almost dead in only two attack rounds. So he had to use a potion for the first time ever since Wynne joined the party, and this pretty much set a trend.

All later encounters were much tougher than anything we had encountered before, except for the revenant in the mage tower and the Mabari hounds in Redcliffe Castle. Alistair doesn't have the Taunt ability yet, which means that Morrigan and my rogue are in trouble if they really put the hurt to someone (e.g. with Crushing Prison). On the other hand, it seems pointless to give Alistair the Taunt ability if he gets shredded in mere seconds. At least Morrigan is supremely suited to kiting a revenant with impunity, thanks to Winter's Grasp and Cone of Cold, plus Force Field as life insurance.

Alistair is wearing the massive templar armour from the Broken Circle; his abilities are: Shield Wall, Shield Tactics, Shield Pummel, Threaten (plus Precise Striking as precondition for Taunt).

Stats (base + magic bonusses):

STR  27
DEX  28
WIL  15+4
MAG  12+2
CUN  11
CON  13+6

hitpoints  224
armour      25
defence     67
attack      88

mental    35
physical  22

His stats were already b0rked when I got him around level 4; since then every attribute point has gone into DEX except for points into STR as needed for wearing armour.

For one thing, this means that his physical resistance is as good as it could possibly be without extra items. Yet he gets knocked about and stunned by everybody and their aunt. For another, the massive armour plus Threaten should mean that enemies perceive him as the main threat but enemies seem just as likely to fixate on Morrigan whom the blasted braindamaged cutscene teleport likes to put closest to the enemy (and Alistair always seems to end up farthest away). Lastly, his defence and armour are as good as they could possibly be at that point in time, barring major investments of nonexistent gold, yet they seem completely ineffective.

The only possible change with existing equipment would be to replace the creationist belt (+10% to healing effects) with a +3 defence belt that we found in the mage tower, but that doesn't look like an improvement. Combined with going back three levels to effectively respec to 20 STR and 35 DEX this would improve defence to 77 but damage reduction from armour would go down by about 10 points, and that would hurt more.

Anyway, some of the enemies were able to take Alistair for up to three quarters of his HP in a single strike (like the revenant or that Pjotr Putin guy or whatshisname). But even a pair of melee proving fighters or a handful of fanatics can tear through Alistair's armour and HP in no time at all. My guess is that the wet paper effect is probably due to the stacking of Sunder Armour and Shattering Shot, combined with criticals. Be that as it may, Alistair hemorrhages HP faster than Wynne can heal (even though all her points have gone into Magic), and his hitpoints have to be kept topped up at more than three quarters because that's how much he can lose in a single attack. So far we have gone through about half the health/lyrium potions that we ever collected, in just a few hours of gallivanting around in Orzammar. Even if it is just one or two potions per encounter, it adds up.

Shield Expertise will solve the problem with knock-down but not that of other stuns; Shield Mastery will improve the sub-par defence a bit. Incremental improvements, but no jump in quality. Have we come to Orzammar too early? I'm playing on PC at normal difficulty, so the enemies are nerfed already. Or perhaps the level designers have already taken the nerfing into account and just piled on more enemies at higher levels than the party...

As regards tactics: I usually have Morrigan open with Mind Blast (or Cone of Cold if the tactical situation allows it) *after* disabling the enemy mage, and if there is a particularly dangerous enemy then he gets parked in a Force Field while his guards are taken out. After that, Wynne and Morrigan both direct traffic by way of Winter's Grasp while otherwise doing their thing. My rogue deals DPS mostly in threat priority order. I.e. she helps neutralise special threats like mages if necessary but in general she just reduces enemy damage output capability as fast as possible.

I'll probably have to upgrade the threat level of archers now that they have Scattershot (and cutscene teleport deposits the party as a nice tight cluster, perfect for being Scattershotted and Fireballed), but apart from that I don't think I'm doing anything particularly wrong.

The problem is, with such a delicate tank every single encounter in Orzammar has to be orchestrated and directed blow by blow as if it were a boss fight, and the fun in the Proving Grounds has us hemorrhaging potions like there's no tomorrow.

Have we gone to Orzammar too early, or is it just that the tutorial phase is finally over and the fun has ended?

Modifié par DarthGizka, 10 décembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[caradoc2000]

DarthGizka wrote...

Have we gone to Orzammar too early, or is it just that the tutorial phase is finally over and the fun has ended?

Too early. That reception committee is supposed to be a gatekeeper event to let you know what you will be up against. Orzammar (and the Deep Roads in particular) is one of the toughest areas in the game, meant for level 15+.

[Blazomancer]

^Not that high, min lvl is 10 for most parts of Orzammar, 12 for Dead Trenches and Anvil of the Void.

@DarthGizka - As caradoc mentioned, the bounty hunters are supposed to be a reality check for the strength of your party. The Orzammar questline should be ideally done at a later stage in your first playthrough. It is doable but hardly allows much room for error.

Are you using Shield Wall all the time? You can get Alistair to Taunt and then Force Field him to get a few seconds of breathing space, while the others deal damage. Focus firing is an effective way to eliminate targets quickly, specially in the early stages of the game. Rather than getting Morrigan to start with Mind Blast, it might be a better idea to use all your damage dealing or debilitating spells before using Mind Blast. It would help with threat management before you get Taunt for Alistair. '+Healing effect' items don't work and can be replaced.

It is likely that you have to keep on micromanaging each fight till you get Alistair some better pieces of armor; whether that headache is worth it is upto you. Or if you have the DLCs you can get a few armor sets there, although you might need a bit more STR to equip them. Anyway, the better thing to do IMO would be to chicken out of Orzammar and go to the other locations first and come back after a few more levels with sturdier armor.

[Ferretinabun]

As the others have mentioned, although you can complete the treaty quests in any order, and to some extend they scale to your level, some are noticably more difficult than others. Redcliffe and the Mage Tower are the easiest. Orzammar is the hardest.

[caradoc2000]

Blazomancer wrote...

^Not that high, min lvl is 10 for most parts of Orzammar, 12 for Dead Trenches and Anvil of the Void.

Could have sworn it was higher - oh well.

[dainbramage]

In general, I'd say that you'ev gone to Orzammar too early. It's definitely not impossible (it's doable at level 7 on nightmare solo, if you're into that sort of thing... just not very fun), but I wouldn't recommend it on a first playthrough.

However, if you want to stick with it, there are a couple of things that should make your life easier, especially since you've already unlocked them.

Faryn in the frostback mountains sells a wonderful piece of upgraded templar armour, called knight-commander's plate. It's basically endgame material for Alistair. Though right now he'll need some big strength boosts to put it on. Secondly, the crazy merchant guy in the commons has a ring called lifegiver which (as the name probably implies) is excellent for a tank. It's also bloody expensive, but a certain smuggler in dust town offers a quest which (if you have decent coercion and pickpocketing) can get you around 80 gold (assuming you sided with the mages in broken circle). If you can get both of those you'll find his tanking ability much improved.

It's also fairly obvious, but crowd control is just as important as the defensive stats of your tank. Frozen, paralyzed, stunned, knocked down etc enemies won't be beating up alistair, after all.

As a final note, you'll want him to take taunt pretty soon. Proximity and massive armour increase his threat, but only by a very small amount compared to damage (armour type also doesn't affect it at all on hard and nightmare).

Modifié par dainbramage, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:51 .

[Whitering]

It's not that bad if you do the activate and retreat thing. Spells and arrows have range, and they must run forward to catch up to you. All of your dogs skills should have gone towards overwhelm, but even Alistair with a shield bash in a pinch will do. Send one to take out the mage, he's the most dangerous.

Don't be afraid to post your team far back and then run away, and don't forget surrounding the one you choose as your target, I know that only rogues get backstab but you also have less chance of getting hit with AoE.

I let where I go first be dictated by the origin I played. As a dwarf I go there first, either for revenge or to check on my Sister. Still, for kicks you should get Shale first at least once.

My advice, run away, stretch them out and then choose your targets, one person generally heading back to mage and save your interrupts for when he starts casting something like fireball or chain lightning.

[Mike3207]

I've had good success building a initial tank by putting all points in strength and a combination of maxing out the offensive talents and combat training. I've also worked on the shield mastery line a bit and precise striking through Taunt. Things seem to go down really fast, but want to work on the character model next time. It's very hard to make a decent looking male Cousland on console.

 

Just went and did this fight at level 8 with my tank PC. Got killed the first time, but then went after the blood mage at the start the second time. Stunned her, then used Assault and Overpower to kill the blood mage. IMO, that's the key-that mage can take you out of the fight and the combo of her spells and Scattershot from archers can wipe out your party. Take her out quickly, and you're looking at a different fight dynamic.

[DarthGizka]

After writing the original post I decided that I had to learn a bit more about the fine art of tanking. So I put my rogue campaign with Elethea on hold and resurrected my first character - a shield dwarf - who was slain by a revenant around level 10 in in the Brecilian Forest. I played that character for a few more levels but got nowhere, so I rolled a brand new sword & board Reaver/Champion and took her through the whole campaign.

Alayna is still one of my favourite characters, and through her I became intimately acquainted with the ins and outs of sword & board warriors. It wasn't until I played a mage who cast big nasty spells at big nasty brutes that the final bit clicked into place, though, which is the importance of Taunt for threat management.

Anyway, now I know that all non-placebo defensive feats for sword & board warriors are artificially delayed until level 12. Before that it is basically impossible for them to tank two-handers effectively without special help: some über kit like the shield you can swipe from Vartag, a magical defence boost via glyph or spell, or a Cone of Cold from Morrigan. Preferrably all three.

Hence my impression of being outgunned in Orzammar was due to the overlapping of four independent elements in that particular time and place:

(1) Being close to level 12 but not actually having reached it, and hence facing level-adequate enemies but with abilities whose advancement had stalled around the time of Lothering.

(2) A preponderance of two-handers, who are any tank's bane before level 12.

(3) A higher-than-usual concentration of tasty encounters, especially with all-yellow groups.

(4) Instead of a tank we had Alistair.

The difficulty level of Jarvia's and the Deep Roads was perfectly normal, though.

 

The thing with the bounty hunters is in a class of its own. They are all yellows IIRC but normally they are manageable. Except that some joker found it funny to set their lower scaling limit to 10, making a level 7 character fresh out of Lothering face enemies who are level 9 and 10. The problem isn't so much the difference in stats but broken game mechanics whereby the level difference is multiplied by five, requiring the lower-level character to invest 5 attribute points per level of difference extra in order to compensate. Which is basically impossible at such low levels, since you won't have been through the Fade yet and you usually won't have any über items either. Hence more spells than usual will be resisted, especially if cast by Morrigan whose spellpower is about half that of a mage Warden. A second problem is that sword & board warriors have difficulty tanking two-handers before level 12 in any case, and this isn't helped any by the two-handers being two or three levels higher.