207 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Ok, sure we've done it to death.  We hate, we love, we're meh about the ending, the beginning, the whole of ME3.  But the truth is there's always something new I realize that I'd forgotten along the way.  Some part of the story that hits me when I start from the beginning.  Maybe others have the same experience.

For me, recently it was playing the ending of ME1 again.  There's Saren getting the upgrades from Sovereign and then later on instantly going full synthetic.  But there's also the dialogue between Shepard, the Council, and Anderson at the very end.  The Council thanks Shepard for saving them from Sovereign AND the Reapers.  Shepard says s/he knows they're still coming and so will fight on against them.  Anderson (assuming it's this way at the end of the game always) says Shepard's right and the Reapers are still a threat.  Something to that effect.

This basically means to me that all of the beginning of ME3 was a mess.  Coupled with the Arrival and other events in ME2, Shepard never should have been in detention (never would have been) AND the galaxy as well as especially Shepard's ex-teammates would not have been off sleeping somewhere.  The Alliance had the info from data Shepard could have chosen to give them from ME2 as well as evidence from the lab in Leviathan (pieces of Sovereign), and Anderson clearly realized the Reapers were still a threat.  This is just one more reason why I think the game as a whole began badly.  And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory.  They had created the most idiotic people and galaxy except for one person, Shepard, and then they had Shepard lay around in detention.  Brilliant.

[dreamgazer]

And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory.

That's less a problem with ME3 and more a problem with ME2, really.

[Erez Kristal]

Shepard Was Layed In detention due to fears from batarian war following the alpha relay and not because the alliance didnt believe the reapers(the alliance was working on reaper tech for at least 20 years) and reaper were common council knowledge since shanxi.

The main problems with the beginning are that it railroads players to turn themself in. because if shepard was captured, it makes all of the texts in the game out of context(shepard appears super please to be working with the alliance)

Moreso. the alliance appear to be very incompetent because their intel doesnt have any idea about whats going on with the batarians.

Another problem that rise is that if it is possibile for shepard to stay alive under alliance custody and the batarians are ok with it. why not simply tell the batarians shepard is under custody while shepard can still go and do as he/she pleases.

Yes this horse was beaten to death long ago, but the problem is still there.

Best options are to write an alternative story which fits your playthrough or move on to another franchise-story.

dreamgazer wrote...

And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory.

That's less a problem with ME3 and more a problem with ME2, really.

It was never a problem with me2. the problem started with me3.
You are welcome to check the reimagined site to see how we approached that issue.

Modifié par erezike, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Rusty Sandusky]

dreamgazer wrote...

And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory.

That's less a problem with ME3 and more a problem with ME2, really.

Ah yes, reapers

[dreamgazer]

erezike wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory.

That's less a problem with ME3 and more a problem with ME2, really.

It was never a problem with me2. the problem started with me3.
You are welcome to check the reimagined site to see how we approached that issue.

It's always been a problem with ME2. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

Remember in the Citadel DLC when your running around the archives and run into this the Alliance and Council seem to have been deliberately sticking their heads in the sand instead of being unconvinced.
Really what can you expect from characters who only waited until Shepard was dead before going "Ah yes Reapers." ME1 presented the political leadership as dumb due to bureaucracy and lack of evidence but after Sovereign's attack they really had no good excuse for being so obstinate, I question what the writers where thinking making these guys that stupid, but what can you do?

[Erez Kristal]

dreamgazer wrote...

erezike wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory.

That's less a problem with ME3 and more a problem with ME2, really.

It was never a problem with me2. the problem started with me3.
You are welcome to check the reimagined site to see how we approached that issue.

It's always been a problem with ME2. 

Not really, the council races were working hard to prepare for the reapers in me2

Shepard was a pawn in mass effect 1 & 2. you only tell a pawn what he/she needs to know to do as you are pleased.

In mass effect 1. the council members simply misplaced their moves. the systems alliance however scored a checkmate.

Modifié par erezike, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:31 .

[Rusty Sandusky]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Remember in the Citadel DLC when your running around the archives and run into this the Alliance and Council seem to have been deliberately sticking their heads in the sand instead of being unconvinced.
Really what can you expect from characters who only waited until Shepard was dead before going "Ah yes Reapers." ME1 presented the political leadership as dumb due to bureaucracy and lack of evidence but after Sovereign's attack they really had no good excuse for being so obstinate, I question what the writers where thinking making these guys that stupid, but what can you do?

They probably just modeled them after modern day politicians.

[Rusty Sandusky]

erezike wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

erezike wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory.

That's less a problem with ME3 and more a problem with ME2, really.

It was never a problem with me2. the problem started with me3.
You are welcome to check the reimagined site to see how we approached that issue.

It's always been a problem with ME2. 

Not really, the council races were working hard to prepare for the reapers in me2

Oh please, I'm playing ME2 right now and the council races, when they're not denying reapers they're doing jack about them.

[Erez Kristal]

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

erezike wrote...


Not really, the council races were working hard to prepare for the reapers in me2

Oh please, I'm playing ME2 right now and the council races, when they're not denying reapers they're doing jack about them.

What would you have done different if you were in their chairs in me2?



Lets look on some records we do know about first(assume that there are many programs we dont know about)
Systems Alliance added 50% to its fleets in three years.
Started an advanced Anti geth program.
Established an advanced reaper research facility on a batarian system.
EDI- Breakthrough in AI.
Upgrades to thanix.

Turian already have 10% of their population recruited and 20% more as reserves. they are as militiarized as possibile.

Salarian - Dont expect the salarian to tell you what they are doing. if they were. they wouldnt be very good at their jobs

Asari - Upgrades Ships. Asari Arent a race of action. so it is possibile they didnt do much to prepare. still we dont know what they did do.

Modifié par erezike, 10 décembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[Iakus]

Bah, who can remember what happened in a game you played a decade ago?  Who cares what happened then?  THIS IS THE SUPERBOWL!

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Shepard was in lock down because of the Alpha Relay Destruction. According to the Alliance(Admiral Hackett, TBH) it would sour even more relations with Batarians.

I think it was well played... The Alliance couldn't afford another attack, like the Skyllian Verge, with a Reaper Invasion on its door and a recent destructed force by a Single Reaper.

[Sion1138]

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...

Shepard was in lock down because of the Alpha Relay Destruction. According to the Alliance(Admiral Hackett, TBH) it would sour even more relations with Batarians.

I think it was well played... The Alliance couldn't afford another attack, like the Skyllian Verge, with a Reaper Invasion on its door and a recent destructed force by a Single Reaper.

Not if you didn't buy the DLC.

[Rusty Sandusky]

erezike wrote...

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

erezike wrote...


Not really, the council races were working hard to prepare for the reapers in me2

Oh please, I'm playing ME2 right now and the council races, when they're not denying reapers they're doing jack about them.

What would you have done different if you were in their chairs in me2?



Lets look on some records we do know about first(assume that there are many programs we dont know about)
Systems Alliance added 50% to its fleets in three years.
Started an advanced Anti geth program.
Established an advanced reaper research facility on a batarian system.
EDI- Breakthrough in AI.
Upgrades to thanix.

Turian already have 10% of their population recruited and 20% more as reserves. they are as militiarized as possibile.

Salarian - Dont expect the salarian to tell you what they are doing. if they were. they wouldnt be very good at their jobs

Asari - Upgrades Ships. Asari Arent a race of action. so it is possibile they didnt do much to prepare. still we dont know what they did do.

Systems Alliance added 50% to its fleets in three years.
Where does it say this?

Started an advanced Anti geth program.
This is because they officially blame the geth for the attack on the Citadel

Established an advanced reaper research facility on a batarian system.
Just because some in an organisation are preparing doesn't mean the higher-ups want to recognise it.

EDI- Breakthrough in AI.
This was Cerberus, who recognised the reaper threat.

Upgrades to thanix.
They used the upgrades available, not necessarily preparing.

Turian already have 10% of their population recruited and 20% more as reserves. they are as militiarized as possibile.
Already part of turian culture

Salarian - Dont expect the salarian to tell you what they are doing. if they were. they wouldnt be very good at their jobs
Good point, but even if some people recognise the reaper threat the higher ranked don't want to.


Asari - Upgrades Ships. Asari Arent a race of action. so it is possibile they didnt do much to prepare. still we dont know what they did do.
The asari refuse to believe the threat if the reapers.

What would you have done different if you were in their chairs in me2?
Probably nothing. Having the politicians be in denial adds a layer of believability to the world but at the cost of having the only way to stop the reapers in ME3 be the MacGuffin to end all MacGuffin's

[Erez Kristal]

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...


I think it was well played... The Alliance couldn't afford another attack, like the Skyllian Verge, with a Reaper Invasion on its door and a recent destructed force by a Single Reaper.

Hardly Well played. considering the systems alliance lack of intel on whats going on in the batarians systems,. and also considering that if shepard can be held in custody. whats stopping the alliance from faking shepard in custody and giving the real shepard a mask/plastic surgery

[MegaIllusiveMan]

erezike wrote...

The main problems with the beginning are that it railroads players to turn themself in. because if shepard was captured, it makes all of the texts in the game out of context(shepard appears super please to be working with the alliance)

Moreso. the alliance appear to be very incompetent because their intel doesnt have any idea about whats going on with the batarians.

Another problem that rise is that if it is possibile for shepard to stay alive under alliance custody and the batarians are ok with it. why not simply tell the batarians shepard is under custody while shepard can still go and do as he/she pleases.

It's stated in ME2 that even a Renegade Shepard doesn't trust Cerberus... For example, A Paragon Shep shows TIM how he hates Cerberus for being too much human-pro, but a Renegade Shepards has the mind that Colonies are Vanishing, no one is doing anything about it, I'll join it. No question. (Paragon Shep acutally question TIM). Also stated in ME3 on Mars: "I let you keep that Collector Base so you could find a way to stop the Reapers"

How so do the Alliance not know what's going on with the Batarians?

Why not tell the Batarians point: No. Batarians could simply have spies everywhere... Again, the Alliance couldn't risk another war with the Batarians.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Sion1138 wrote...

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...

Shepard was in lock down because of the Alpha Relay Destruction. According to the Alliance(Admiral Hackett, TBH) it would sour even more relations with Batarians.

I think it was well played... The Alliance couldn't afford another attack, like the Skyllian Verge, with a Reaper Invasion on its door and a recent destructed force by a Single Reaper.

Not if you didn't buy the DLC.

Well, I admit that I may have disconsidered this point... But the OP says: "Coupled with Arrival and other events on ME2, etc,etc,etc"...

[Rusty Sandusky]

erezike wrote...

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...


I think it was well played... The Alliance couldn't afford another attack, like the Skyllian Verge, with a Reaper Invasion on its door and a recent destructed force by a Single Reaper.

Hardly Well played. considering the systems alliance lack of intel on whats going on in the batarians systems,. and also considering that if shepard can be held in custody. whats stopping the alliance from faking shepard in custody and giving the real shepard a mask/plastic surgery

Are you really THAT desperate for Mass Effect 3 to have not happened?

[dreamgazer]

Sion1138 wrote...

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...

Shepard was in lock down because of the Alpha Relay Destruction. According to the Alliance(Admiral Hackett, TBH) it would sour even more relations with Batarians.

I think it was well played... The Alliance couldn't afford another attack, like the Skyllian Verge, with a Reaper Invasion on its door and a recent destructed force by a Single Reaper.

Not if you didn't buy the DLC.

Shepard doing Arrival instead of anonymous troops was actually canonized in the books. [Link]

[crimzontearz]

Shepard Was Layed In detention due to fears from batarian war following the alpha relay and not because the alliance didnt believe the reapers(the alliance was working on reaper tech for at least 20 years) and reaper were common council knowledge since shanxi.

incorrect as you start in the same position if you import a Shepard that has not done Arrival

[dreamgazer]

erezike wrote...

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...


I think it was well played... The Alliance couldn't afford another attack, like the Skyllian Verge, with a Reaper Invasion on its door and a recent destructed force by a Single Reaper.

Hardly Well played. considering the systems alliance lack of intel on whats going on in the batarians systems,. and also considering that if shepard can be held in custody. whats stopping the alliance from faking shepard in custody and giving the real shepard a mask/plastic surgery

(laughs)

That's up there with the Normandy crash site in ME2 being fabricated, erezike. 

[crimzontearz]

Shepard doing Arrival instead of anonymous troops was actually canonized in the books.

Bioware says there is no canon, also, it matters little to those whose main import still has no arrival dialogue in ME3

[KaiserShep]

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

Systems Alliance added 50% to its fleets in three years.
Where does it say this?

I'm not even sure why this percentage would even matter, because the amount of ships lost from the Systems Alliance fleet varies based on whether or not the council was saved anyway. For those of us who opted to save them, the Alliance is weaker as a result, and is still in the process of rebuilding what was lost. I can't recall TIM's dialogue in a sacrificed council import, however, so if someone could clarify that'd be swell.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 10 décembre 2013 - 04:10 .

[Erez Kristal]

ThisOnesUsername wrote...


Systems Alliance added 50% to its fleets in three years.
Where does it say this?

Started an advanced Anti geth program.
This is because they officially blame the geth for the attack on the Citadel

Established an advanced reaper research facility on a batarian system.
Just because some in an organisation are preparing doesn't mean the higher-ups want to recognise it.

EDI- Breakthrough in AI.
This was Cerberus, who recognised the reaper threat.

Upgrades to thanix.
They used the upgrades available, not necessarily preparing.

Turian already have 10% of their population recruited and 20% more as reserves. they are as militiarized as possibile.
Already part of turian culture

Salarian - Dont expect the salarian to tell you what they are doing. if they were. they wouldnt be very good at their jobs
Good point, but even if some people recognise the reaper threat the higher ranked don't want to.


Asari - Upgrades Ships. Asari Arent a race of action. so it is possibile they didnt do much to prepare. still we dont know what they did do.
The asari refuse to believe the threat if the reapers.

What would you have done different if you were in their chairs in me2?
Probably nothing. Having the politicians be in denial adds a layer of believability to the world but at the cost of having the only way to stop the reapers in ME3 be the MacGuffin to end all MacGuffin's

Systems alliance built 3 dreadnought and added them to their 6. safest assumption is that they built the same amount of ships in overall. for full systems alliance budget check here.

Edi - was mostly alliance development. Sidon Based. And you have to ask yourself when and why cerberus left the alliance, if at all until the events of retribution.

upgrades cost money - it stated most ships upgraded.


- Higher Ranked Didnt admit to recognizing the threat to shepard in me2. there is a difference between recognizing and admitting.  We know Anderson- top alliance politican. and the highest ranking alliance military believe the reaper in me2. we also know udinna believed the reapers in me1. udinna also dont deny the reapers in mass effect 2... he speaks of political ramafications.  
How often do you meet an honest politican?


- Probally nothing is not the answer that would solve this little debate - we have no confirmation the politicans were living in denial. we only know they wanted to create an image of business as ususal. remember the council use spectre and stg often. they prefer to work subtley and in the shadows.
The systems alliance created cerberus and the croshairs..
Not all is as it appears.

As for me3 crucible. its a writer choice. nothing to do with how politicans of me2 behaved.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ooh, an erezike heavy thread.

Like a Seival thread, but less of pure headcanon and more willful rejection of the lore.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 10 décembre 2013 - 04:09 .