207 réponses à ce sujet

[Argentoid]

Nero Narmeril wrote...

You know the Council cannot officialy confirm existence of the Reapers, because there would be lot of 'hurr durr, we're gonna die, so let's have anarchy, because there's no hope for us' from citizens?

Also - Shepard is officialy dead (MIA at best) and there's no proof he's real (word of officer who takes bribes is... not legitimate at least).

Do you really think that a civilized race like the asari, turians or even the salarians would go into anarchy? 

And the Council can confirm the existence of the Reapers just by looking at the remnants of Sovereign. In fact, if you go into the Citadel archives in the Citadel DLC, you'll find a hologram that mentions that Sovereign was actually a Reaper, not an "Advanced geth ship".

Now, all this retcon does is to make the Council look like they were pulling some kind of "damage control" to a potential apocalypse situation, hiding this information to anyone except the Council's themselves.

Modifié par Argentoid, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:16 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

The lesson of the whole trilogy:

Write this stuff out in advance.

[Deathsaurer]

Argentoid wrote...

Do you really think that a civilized race like the asari, turians or even the salarians would go into anarchy?

Yes? This isn't the Geth this is the machines that destroyed the Protheans and built every technological marvel you know of. Do you think people wouldn't freak?

And the Council can confirm the existence of the Reapers just by looking at the remnants of Sovereign. In fact, if you go into the Citadel archives in the Citadel DLC, you'll find a hologram that mentions that Sovereign was actually a Reaper, not an "Advanced geth ship".

Believed to be a Reaper.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:51 .

[Linkenski]

I might've read too little into it in ME2 but they deliberitely made the claim [the writers] in ME2 that the council had covered up the thing about Sovereign and the Reapers. The way I always took it was that it was something they did to maintain peace and avoid people panicking or something because all anyone could do was prepare in secret because god knows when the Reapers might arrive.

Then there's the whole story about how the Reapers suddently managed to get out of dark space when the plot of ME1 was for Sovereign to open a link to get them out since they were "trapped in dark space"

Well consider this before I go any further. ME2 was not the game that started retconning the whole "trapped in dark space" plot point. The end of ME1 has Shepard saying "The Reapers are coming". Why does he know that this will happen when they've stopped the only known Reaper in the milky way from untrapping the others?

Ever since the ending of ME1 itself the plot assumed the Reapers would just "eventually arrive". Sure ME2 could've gone the other way instead, not to mention that Arrival was a bit of a missed opportunity since it could've made for the reason that the Reapers DID get out of Dark Space in the first place.

But anyhow I just figure that the Reapers being trapped in dark space was just slowing them down and I don't really know... ME1's setting didn't really make me read that much into everything, but it's something that has been reinforced the more I've played the games, but frankly I would really forgive all this if it wasn't because ME3 screwed everything completely up with the ending and frankly the intro.

Because, the council covering up the Reapers and ME1's plot should have nothing to do with the fact that ME3's beginning is just plain awful writing. Why is the defence council so pathetic? What do they do all day, and why can't they present a basis for their strategy to Shepard and hear him out for objections instead of "OOh, we're scared, we don't know anything, what should we do O mighty Shepard?" and Shepard going "We can't use tactics or strategy, but we have to use tactics and strategy, and hear my bull**** while the Reapers get closer every second while I waste your and the player's time and give Mac Walters a good cashgrab for writing gibberish!"


PS.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The lesson of the whole trilogy:

Write this stuff out in advance.

I'd like to add: "Don't change tone or direction midway"

Modifié par Linkenski, 10 décembre 2013 - 11:03 .

[Rotward]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Argentoid wrote...

Do you really think that a civilized race like the asari, turians or even the salarians would go into anarchy?

Yes? This isn't the Geth this is the machines that destroyed the Protheans and built every technological marvel you know of. Do you think people wouldn't freak?

You've got it backwards. Hearing about the reapers ahead of time would have reduced the chances of society crumbling as you've described it. 

When the reapers are a problem from the future, not a sudden emergency, they're not nearly as threatening. Some would freak out, and others wouldn't take the warnings seriously, but preparation time is invaluable. That me3 ended with anything other than victory for the reapers was a complete and utter asspull because no government had prepared for their arrival. 

Having the reapers suddenly appear over your planet, defeat your armies in a matter of hours, and start turning you into zombies? That would have fostered anarchy if me3 were in any way realistic. 

[Deathsaurer]

No it wouldn't. You have no idea how many there are and thus no idea how much prep is enough prep. People would be living under the shadow of a phantom enemy until they waltzed in and beat everyone down anyways and that would have been a massive downer. Why don't you ask the people that lived during the Cold War what that was like. I doubt anyone will give you a pretty picture.

[Rotward]

Deathsaurer wrote...

No it wouldn't. You have no idea how many there are and thus no idea how much prep is enough prep. People would be living under the shadow of a phantom enemy until they waltzed in and beat everyone down anyways and that would have been a massive downer. Why don't you ask the people that lived during the Cold War what that was like. I doubt anyone will give you a pretty picture.

Guess what DIDN'T happen in the cold war? Anarchy! In fact, both 'sides' became tight knit in their opposition of the other. 

Living during the cold war sucked, but you know what was worse? Being in hiroshima and nagasaki. Not just because they were bombed, whereas the cold war stayed cold, but because they had no idea what to do. There were no preparations, no contingency plans, no information about how to treat radiation. 

Knowing an enemy could attack at any time is unpleasent, but being attacked without warning is worse than living under a 'phantom enemy.' Just because one option isn't great, that doesn't mean it's the worst option by default. 

[dreamgazer]

Morocco Mole wrote...

They had no idea what they wanted in the trilogy and it shows. You can't even blame Walters for it because Drew had just as much a hand in the idiocy that was ME2's story.

Hogwash.  Clearly everything negative about ME2 was written by Walters, and everything positive was written Drew. 

[Deathsaurer]

Don't kid yourself, there would have been total anarchy the moment the nukes went flying. It only needed 1 spark. No one is going to enjoy having to ramp up military production several times over totally gutting funding for social programs and new colonies. Especially this galaxy still scarred by the Rachni wars and Krogan rebellions. They're still terrified of war from those events. Being told something orders of magnitudes worse is coming would fill everyone with dread.

[JamesFaith]

Rotward wrote...

When the reapers are a problem from the future, not a sudden emergency, they're not nearly as threatening. Some would freak out, and others wouldn't take the warnings seriously, but preparation time is invaluable. That me3 ended with anything other than victory for the reapers was a complete and utter asspull because no government had prepared for their arrival. 

You missing one important point - Protheans.

Whole galaxy considered them nearly godlike (Hanar even as gods) and now someone tell you that they were wiped out by someone stronger. And this someone is returning. 

I wouldn't compare this with Cold war. Is more like WWI, when soldiers reached trench full of dead bodies of completely anihillated and much bigger force with much better weapons and equipment and then got message that their killers are on their way back and you can't run from them.

[Argentoid]

Deathsaurer wrote...


Yes? This isn't the Geth this is the machines that destroyed the Protheans and built every technological marvel you know of. Do you think people wouldn't freak?

Oh yes, I saw a loooooot of anarchy on the Citadel back in ME3.

Deathsaurer wrote...

Believed to be a Reaper...

Yeap. Point still stands.

Modifié par Argentoid, 11 décembre 2013 - 12:26 .

[Deathsaurer]

Argentoid wrote...

Oh yes, I saw a loooooot of anarchy on the Citadel back in ME3.

People were in denial. Both James and Joker comment on it.

[Argentoid]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Argentoid wrote...

Oh yes, I saw a loooooot of anarchy on the Citadel back in ME3.

People were in denial. Both James and Joker comment on it.

Don't you think the same would happen in ME2 then?

[Rotward]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Don't kid yourself, there would have been total anarchy the moment the nukes went flying. It only needed 1 spark. No one is going to enjoy having to ramp up military production several times over totally gutting funding for social programs and new colonies. Especially this galaxy still scarred by the Rachni wars and Krogan rebellions. They're still terrified of war from those events. Being told something orders of magnitudes worse is coming would fill everyone with dread.

REALLY? Since ramping up military production will scare people, LETS JUST SIT ON OUR THUMBS AND WAIT TO DIE, WOOOOOO! 

As for the cold war: I'm sure strike zones would be chaotic, but the country probably wouldn't have collapsed. We're not discussing what happens when the missiles hit, though, that's neither here nor there. We're talking about anarchy born from knowing that the missiles could hit. 

The rachni wars are so old that no one alive (we killed the thorian) experienced them, not even an asari or krogan. The krogan rebellions are old enough that few still-living beings were around during that time. Reconstruction from those wars is long since complete. The recent war with the Geth, and the first contact war, are more relevant, but also far less devstating. 

I repeat: Just because an option has consequences, that doesn't mean it's not worth taking. There are only two forms of anarchy: lack of government, and lack of enforcement. If you get attacked without warning, the former is guaranteed. If you get attacked with warning the latter is still a possibility, but not a surety. Note, the alliance, batarians, and turians all lost many of their government officials in the initial attack. 

Modifié par Rotward, 11 décembre 2013 - 12:44 .

[wolfhowwl]

knucks360 wrote...
In other words, BW ruined Cerberus.

When they became anything other than the sidequest fodder they were in ME1, yes.

Han Shot First wrote...
Agreed.

The problem here isn't with Mass Effect 3, it is with Mass Effect 2 retconning the results of Mass Effect 1. At the end of Mass Effect 1 Shepard had the Council's full backing and support against the Reapers. In ME2 they're back to air quoting and treating Shepard like he's the Ancient Aliens guy.

The only reason this was done was to shoehorn Shepard into Cerberus.

The sad part is that retconning the Council wasn't necessary. Instead they could have had the war with the Reaper-allied Geth still be raging fiercely. Meanwhile isolated colonies outside of Council space are
vanishing. Shepard is convinced the vanishing colonies are linked in some way to the Reapers, the Council (except for Anderson) disagrees and thinks its a distraction from the real threat...the Geth, and that a
military excursion into the Terminus might spark a war with the Terminus Systems.

And there you go, Shepard has a reason to ally with Cerberus without the Council denying the existence of Reapers. They just disagree on where resources should be allocated.

Yes.

There is still the issue of a Shepard who knows they murdered an Alliance Admiral/possibly their own unit but at least the damage from trying to justify the Cerberus railroading is minimized.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 11 décembre 2013 - 01:12 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Rotward wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

Don't kid yourself, there would have been total anarchy the moment the nukes went flying. It only needed 1 spark. No one is going to enjoy having to ramp up military production several times over totally gutting funding for social programs and new colonies. Especially this galaxy still scarred by the Rachni wars and Krogan rebellions. They're still terrified of war from those events. Being told something orders of magnitudes worse is coming would fill everyone with dread.

REALLY? Since ramping up military production will scare people, LETS JUST SIT ON OUR THUMBS AND WAIT TO DIE, WOOOOOO! 

As for the cold war: I'm sure strike zones would be chaotic, but the country probably wouldn't have collapsed. We're not discussing what happens when the missiles hit, though, that's neither here nor there. We're talking about anarchy born from knowing that the missiles could hit. 

The rachni wars are so old that no one alive (we killed the thorian) experienced them, not even an asari or krogan. The krogan rebellions are old enough that few still-living beings were around during that time. Reconstruction from those wars is long since complete. The recent war with the Geth, and the first contact war, are more relevant, but also far less devstating. 

I repeat: Just because an option has consequences, that doesn't mean it's not worth taking. There are only two forms of anarchy: lack of government, and lack of enforcement. If you get attacked without warning, the former is guaranteed. If you get attacked with warning the latter is still a possibility, but not a surety. Note, the alliance, batarians, and turians all lost many of their government officials in the initial attack. 

I lived during the Cold War. I remember when there was atmospheric nuclear testing. I remember when there were radioactive fallout warnings because of them. We were being educated about the potential of Strontium 90 and stuff like that getting into the dairy supply when they were pushing for a nuclear test ban treaty. Yes I was young like 9 years old, but we talked about stuff like that. I was 9 in October 1962. My birthday was at the end of October. I remember President Kennedy on television talking about the Cuban missile crisis. I remember the pictures on the news of the missile sites in Cuba. I remember the blockade of Soviet Ships from Cuba. I remember not knowing if I was going to live to be 10. Some of our neighbors had fallout shelters. We lived within the striking range of the missiles. There was a SAC base not too far away, and an arsenal nearby as well, so we knew one of the missiles was going to be hitting close. We had air raid drills in school. Duck and cover in case those nuclear bombs fall. You know what to do. Don't look at the flash and keep your backs to the glass. And they used that film until 1960.

it was pretty scary. Then we kept building more and more and more and more until each side had thousands of bombs by the 1980s. Mutually Assured Destruction or MAD. Now we play games about it like Fallout. 

We coped. We dealt with it.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 11 décembre 2013 - 01:40 .

[Deathsaurer]

Argentoid wrote...

Don't you think the same would happen in ME2 then?

So everyone thinking the council is full of crap helps how? They'd revolt at the massive increase of military spending and that's the best case. Even with just 300 Reapers you'd need 1200 dreadnoughts. There are about
250 currently. 900ish dreadnoughts in 3 years... This gets even more ridiculous the higher the number goes.

Rotward wrote...

 REALLY? Since ramping up military production will scare people, LETS JUST SIT ON OUR THUMBS AND WAIT TO DIE, WOOOOOO!

Not saying it was a good idea but you can't flip a switch like that and not incite a panic. Telling people the nightmare killbots that have been knocking off civilizations for millions of years, including the one you thought was the greatest ever, are coming and you don't have the assets to deal with them with either get met with scorn or panic. A politician wants neither.

The production increase required is insane. I don't think the scope of it is fully realized. They'd need to seize private shipyards, institue a draft, increase taxes several fold, run work crews 24/7 all over 1 ship everyone was content to believe was a Geth ship and were never worried they'd produce more of them for some reason. These don't sound like the most sane people to be trying to convince of anything.

As for the cold war: I'm sure strike zones would be chaotic, but the country probably wouldn't have collapsed. We're not discussing what happens when the missiles hit, though, that's neither here nor there. We're talking about anarchy born from knowing that the missiles could hit.

People were expecting the end of the world if hostilites broke out.

The rachni wars are so old that no one alive (we killed the thorian) experienced them, not even an asari or krogan. The krogan rebellions are old enough that few still-living beings were around during that time. Reconstruction from those wars is long since complete.

Still has political concequences. Opening new relays is forbidden and they have this ridiculous aversion to full scale war like that. No we won't do this because it might incite the Terminus Systems, no we won't do that because it might incite the Terminus Systems. Your colonists can die for all we care we won't get in a war. Etc.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:08 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Still has political concequences. Opening new relays is forbidden and they have this ridiculous aversion to full scale war like that. No we won't do this because it might incite the Terminus Systems, no we won't do that because it might incite the Terminus Systems. Your colonists can die for all we care we won't get in a war. Etc.

A mere eighty years before the events of ME1 the Council evidently didn't have problems with the idea of sending dreadnoughts into the Terminus to evict the Quarians from Ekuna.

I've said it before, but honestly, I think the idea in ME1 that the Council couldn't step up patrols of their own borders without provoking the Terminus was a load of crap. They were just letting the Geth put us uppity humans back in our place without getting their hands dirty.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

Still has political concequences. Opening new relays is forbidden and they have this ridiculous aversion to full scale war like that. No we won't do this because it might incite the Terminus Systems, no we won't do that because it might incite the Terminus Systems. Your colonists can die for all we care we won't get in a war. Etc.

A mere eighty years before the events of ME1 the Council evidently didn't have problems with the idea of sending dreadnoughts into the Terminus to evict the Quarians from Ekuna.

I've said it before, but honestly, I think the idea in ME1 that the Council couldn't step up patrols of their own borders without provoking the Terminus was a load of crap. They were just letting the Geth put us uppity humans back in our place without getting their hands dirty.

We kindly returned the favor:devil:

[Deathsaurer]

We also have an in universe case of exactly what I've been saying, the Alliance had trouble meeting recruitment quotas because people were afraid they couldn't match Geth technology despite them dominating the Heretics by this point... Clearly people in Mass Effect are completely insane.

[Argentoid]

Deathsaurer wrote...

So everyone thinking the council is full of crap helps how? They'd revolt at the massive increase of military spending and that's the best case. Even with just 300 Reapers you'd need 1200 dreadnoughts. There are about
250 currently. 900ish dreadnoughts in 3 years... This gets even more ridiculous the higher the number goes.

"They'd revolt at the massive increase of military spending"

Wat.

I think that would be moronic. People complaining about the war effort? Really? What kind of logic is that? Their lives depend on that very same military spending, and they'd know. Some would mostly contribute to the war effort, you know, by joining some type of guerrilla or something. Council races would also probably make alliances with others and, meanwhile, Shepard would just try to find a way stop the Reaper threat and gain full support of the Council.

If ME3 didn't show the Citadel under anarchy, ME2 wouldn't be any different.

My opinion though.

Modifié par Argentoid, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:32 .

[Deathsaurer]

The increase we're talking about is ridiculous in scale. Like probably in excess of a 10x increase if not more. I think the scale is something people don't understand. The Alliance already had trouble recruiting to fight the Geth after they were winning. People aren't going to go for this. They're going to want to run and hide.

People on the Citadel weren't shy about filing reports on people of little things in ME3, most of which were probably frivolous. You had one dude wanting to hand everyone a gun when they realized they couldn't hide from the war. C-sec arguing over whether or not to enforce minor violations. That place was a dump.

[Rotward]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Argentoid wrote...

Don't you think the same would happen in ME2 then?

So everyone thinking the council is full of crap helps how? They'd revolt at the massive increase of military spending and that's the best case. Even with just 300 Reapers you'd need 1200 dreadnoughts. There are about
250 currently. 900ish dreadnoughts in 3 years... This gets even more ridiculous the higher the number goes.

That's unlikely. Some people might protest, but I don't think I've encountered a single instance of revolution due to military spending. Many businesses would like the increased spending, especially before war actually broke out, and people started dieing. 

Not saying it was a good idea but you can't flip a switch like that and not incite a panic. Telling people the nightmare killbots that have been knocking off civilizations for millions of years, including the one you thought was the greatest ever, are coming and you don't have the assets to deal with them with either get met with scorn or panic. A politician wants neither.

That's why you don't say that the deathbots who managed to wipe out civilizations are coming. You say that more ships like sovereign are coming, and in order to prepare, we're upping military spending and taking general precautions.  

The production increase required is insane. I don't think the scope of it is fully realized. They'd need to seize private shipyards, institue a draft, increase taxes several fold, run work crews 24/7 all over 1 ship everyone was content to believe was a Geth ship and were never worried they'd produce more of them for some reason. These don't sound like the most sane people to be trying to convince of anything.

No amount of spending would get them a military force equal to the reapers, but more spending is better than less. Simple evacuation ships would have been useful, and could have been built under the name of colonial safety. It's not like me1 was riddled with colonies being attacked left and right or anythi- oh right. 

People were expecting the end of the world if hostilites broke out.

They were right, too, entire countries could have been rendered uninhabitable. What's that prove, exactly, in regards to the council preparing for the reaper invasion?

Still has political concequences. Opening new relays is forbidden and they have this ridiculous aversion to full scale war like that. No we won't do this because it might incite the Terminus Systems, no we won't do that because it might incite the Terminus Systems. Your colonists can die for all we care we won't get in a war. Etc.

Sure, but political consequences don't translate to cultural aversion. The politicians are still afraid of galactic scale war, but what about the average citizen who slept through history class in high school? Why would they care about the rachni war. Hell, in me1 we met a human that didn't know what rachni were. 

Point being, I doubt that the idea of war is any scarier to the average citizen because of the rachni war, or krogan rebellions. 

[Deathsaurer]

Rotward wrote...

That's unlikely. Some people might protest, but I don't think I've encountered a single instance of revolution due to military spending. Many businesses would like the increased spending, especially before war actually broke out, and people started dieing.

So like there are people in ME2 that hate the Alliance and want nothing to do with it. There are people that gave up oh the idea of beating the Heretics. Mass Effect clearly isn't running like a real world scenario here.

That's why you don't say that the deathbots who managed to wipe out civilizations are coming. You say that more ships like sovereign are coming, and in order to prepare, we're upping military spending and taking general precautions.

Well that's kinda hard since Shepard has been busy running around screaming Reapers for months. Now if you're saying like a 50% increase that'd be reasonable. I'm talking a full shift for a full on war economy out of nowhere. People would not stand for that.

No amount of spending would get them a military force equal to the reapers, but more spending is better than less. Simple evacuation ships would have been useful, and could have been built under the name of colonial safety. It's not like me1 was riddled with colonies being attacked left and right or anythi- oh right.

Hey I'm not disagreeing with you. But these are the people that haven't bothered to do any of this since the Geth attacks. Or Collector attacks... They've clearly got their heads buried somewhere. Like Kaiden said, the writing is on the wall but someone isn't reading it. It's like they went well we've armed 1 colony, that's our good deed for the year, back to business as usual. 6 months later OMG someone save us!

Sure, but political consequences don't translate to cultural aversion. The politicians are still afraid of galactic scale war, but what about the average citizen who slept through history class in high school? Why would they care about the rachni war. Hell, in me1 we met a human that didn't know what rachni were. 

Point being, I doubt that the idea of war is any scarier to the average citizen because of the rachni war, or krogan rebellions.

Sadly the politicians are the only ones that matter until someone actually starts shooting at your homeworld. See the Council, Alliance, Quarians, Turians, anyone I forgot.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:01 .