207 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravensword]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Personally I think each of these games should have been good stand alone titles before they were good sequels. Just getting really tired of the trilogy syndrome that seems to be everywhere nowdays. First act has to be epic, second act is just there to bridge the two, lots of nothing happen, third act has to resolve everything.

So sick of that crap.

Well, yes, everyone seems to be obsessed w/ the number three, but BW's lack of planning the story is what really did the series's plot in. Each of the ME games were pretty much stand alone games. ME3 makes more sense if you don't import and use the default Shepard.

Modifié par Ravensword, 11 décembre 2013 - 10:31 .

[KaiserShep]

Ravensword wrote...
ME3 makes more sense if you don't importy and use the default Shepard.

The cure is worse than the disease. 

[Iakus]

KaiserShep wrote...

Ravensword wrote...
ME3 makes more sense if you don't importy and use the default Shepard.

The cure is worse than the disease. 

Don't forget to turn decisions off.

That's the Shepard that deserves these endings

[KaiserShep]

Action mode is the devil.

[Argentoid]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
ME2 should basically be titled: The Space Adventures of Shepard and Friends... IN Space! 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KaiserShep wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And there was Horizon. We spent the entire game chasing this Collector ship. We knew about the derelict reaper, or at least Cerberus did, and The Illusive Man hadn't told us yet. By the time we got to Horizon, I had the Normandy upgraded with hull armor and Thanix. The Collector vessel was a sitting duck. Why did we need to investigate at all? Why not just take out the ship? Did the reapers blowing up that dreadnought destroy Vancouver? No. The Normandy could have entered the atmosphere and shot the damned ship while it was on the ground and helpless. Bye bye collector vessel. Two shots. Hit FTL and get the hell out of there.

This seems very problematic, and would not really work for the progression of the game. So let's say you have the upgrades, and you see that the ship has landed in the colony. At this point, striking the ship from orbit rather than investigating and finding the VS would be an option, rather than an obligation triggered by whether or not you even bothered to upgrade the Normandy's weapons and armor yet (not even sure how this would work within the constraints of the resources of the game). But, at the same time, it must come with the condition that choosing the fomer would most likely lead to the colony's complete destruction. Let's not kid ourselves here. We cannot go to ME3 to draw examples to determine what we can do in ME2. The thanix cannon is an exceptionally powerful weapon that may have devastating effects if it's used to strike a large target over a populated area. Striking the ship may cause an explosion powerful enough to leave most of Horizon a smoking crater, and killing many others outside of the blast radius by raining debris. I'm not even sure what this should mean for the fate of the VS, but I would guess that this means he/she also dies in the process. So now, when all's said and done, you stopped the Collector ship, but you destroyed a human colony to do so. So, how should the game go forward from here? 

As for the dreadnought's destruction over Vancouver, it should be noted that Vancouver is 44 square miles large, so a ship blowing up over that large an area is not going to devastate the entire thing unless it was nuclear. Let's say that ship simply blew up over the city even if it wasn't being torn apart by reapers. The debris and the explosion would still kill or gravely injure hundreds of people, and that's likely a conservative estimate. The population densityof that city present day is over 5k per square kilometer. Who knows what that number would be in the 2100's. 

Let's put it this way. From where Shepard and Anderson were standing on top of that building, when that reaper blew up the dreadnought, they should have been turned into ash. The were not wearing armor. They were in their uniforms. They were knocked off their feet from the shockwave. Hence the radiation from the core detonation should have killed them. Ashley or Kaidan should have been leading the team in ME3.

Horizon:
1) Shepard didn't know the VS was on Horizon, so yes dead.
2) Yes, I'd estimate at least 50% of the rest of the colony dies. The colony on board the ship is as good as dead anyway.
3) Perhaps we could have found an IFF in the wreckage if we got lucky.
4) We're Cerberus. We saved the colony, and the way we did it the Council would have been pleased.

[dreamgazer]

Argentoid wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
ME2 should basically be titled: The Space Adventures of Shepard and Friends... IN Space! 

[Deathsaurer]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Let's put it this way. From where Shepard and Anderson were standing on top of that building, when that reaper blew up the dreadnought, they should have been turned into ash. The were not wearing armor. They were in their uniforms. They were knocked off their feet from the shockwave. Hence the radiation from the core detonation should have killed them.

Project Lazarus 2.0 get? Lawson, this is Liara. Shepard is dead again do you think you can work that magic and revive them? Bloody hell... 6 months later in the middle of the war...

[wolfhowwl]

erezike wrote...
As i see it, shepard being cut from the loop doesnt mean the council actually denied the reaper threat.

Its easy to understand why everyone appear to be incompetent. if you take things for what they are. but thats opposition rethoric. once the opposition makes it to the goverment they realize things arent as simple as they first thought.

Until the Citadel DLC retcon what evidence pointed to them not denying the threat? The Alliance council is still clueless. Garrus has to pull strings to get a token task force to prepare. There is also a conversation in vanilla ME3 between Joker and Shepard discussing how the Council wasn't just "faking" it.

erezike wrote...
Mass effect 2 doesnt hinder the plot because they could have simply made the mass effect a 4 game series. not one was holding a gun to the writers head telling them, they have to finish the story now. When looking at it
from the 3 games limit. then yes mass effect 2 ends up hindering the plot for not pushing forward and laying enough foundations for the end. but not said it had to be a 3 games series. it could have easily have been a 4-6 game series if they wanted to as long as those games were fun and interesting.

But Mass Effect was always intended to be a trilogy, as the middle entry it had one job. Instead it ended up effectively being a spinoff. That you say the series could have had more games to clean up ME2's mess is a pretty damning statement of how it hindered the plot.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 12 décembre 2013 - 06:30 .

[KaiserShep]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Let's put it this way. From where Shepard and Anderson were standing on top of that building, when that reaper blew up the dreadnought, they should have been turned into ash. The were not wearing armor. They were in their uniforms. They were knocked off their feet from the shockwave. Hence the radiation from the core detonation should have killed them. Ashley or Kaidan should have been leading the team in ME3.

The explosion was big, but it wasn't that big. What hits them is only the shockwave in the air, not the heat blast from the dreadnought's destruction. At worst, they'd suffer from a severe concussion and possibly internal hemorrhaging as a result, but the dreadnought didn't go off like a nuclear weapon. Anyway, the physics of all of this stuff is kind of funky to begin with, but it's not like Mass Effect has ever been all that solid on this end anyway.

Horizon:
1) Shepard didn't know the VS was on Horizon, so yes dead.

Actually Shepard is informed of the VS' presence on Horizon in the briefing with TIM.

2) Yes, I'd estimate at least 50% of the rest of the colony dies. The colony on board the ship is as good as dead anyway.

Fair enough, though I still think that should weigh in on how Shepard is perceived later.

3) Perhaps we could have found an IFF in the wreckage if we got lucky.

Perhaps, but this could easily be glossed over by simply having a totally different Collector ship lay the trap. One of the things I did like about the aftermath of this sequence was that it allowed EDI to determine the location of the Collector base based on the data mined from the inactive ship.

4) We're Cerberus. We saved the colony, and the way we did it the Council would have been pleased.

Impossible! The Council is displeased with everything lol. Save the rachni queen? Tsk tsk Shepard. Kill the queen? Tsk tsk Shepard.

[Massa FX]

Thread comments are too funny! Everyone pushing their cannon forward as justification for a flawed product. We can't trust ME1 - ME3 games/lore/codex/books/comics because the creators of MEU threw it all away when convenient.

So... everyone that's written anything here in comments is correct AND incorrect.

Everything is possible, and at the same time, nothing is possible.
Everything is impossible, and at the same time, nothing is impossible.

Both statements are true for ME games.

peace people. it's not your fault.

Modifié par Massa FX, 12 décembre 2013 - 07:03 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

KaiserShep wrote...

4) We're Cerberus. We saved the colony, and the way we did it the Council would have been pleased.

Impossible! The Council is displeased with everything lol. Save the rachni queen? Tsk tsk Shepard. Kill the queen? Tsk tsk Shepard.

Ah yes "contentment" we have dismissed that feeling.

[3DandBeyond]

dreamgazer wrote...

And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory.

That's less a problem with ME3 and more a problem with ME2, really.

Partly I'd agree here with that.  Except ME3 had the responsibility to explain everything that came before, closing all open questions.  So, what ME3 could have done was explained that the Alliance was working to rebuild and all that stuff and not really ready to fight.  ME3 didn't do that.  Instead, it just shows all the fleets spread out or lost in the galaxy ('cause you have to find them for some reason) in the fetch quests.  And your friends are just sitting around doing nothing, while you (Shepard) sit idly in detention.  ME2 didn't do that-ME3 did.  They tried to retcon some of it with Vega's story, acting as if the Alliance had been doing something when all that does is make it more inane that Shepard was in detention.

[CronoDragoon]

3DandBeyond wrote...
And your friends are just sitting around doing nothing, while you (Shepard) sit idly in detention.

Like who? Garrus, who nagged the Turian government nonstop to get ready for the Reapers until they appointed a token task force? Or Tali, working with Legion to make peace to take back their homeworld so they wouldn't be hanging in space when the Reapers arrived? Liara, working to find a way to stop the Reapers and - don't forget - actually finding it?

It seems to me for the most part that anyone who could make a difference in preparing for the Reapers was. Except maybe Wrex, but do you entirely blame him for his "we get ours before you get your help" mentality?

I think you're being a little unfair here.

[3DandBeyond]

erezike wrote...

Shepard Was Layed In detention due to fears from batarian war following the alpha relay and not because the alliance didnt believe the reapers(the alliance was working on reaper tech for at least 20 years) and reaper were common council knowledge since shanxi.

The main problems with the beginning are that it railroads players to turn themself in. because if shepard was captured, it makes all of the texts in the game out of context(shepard appears super please to be working with the alliance)

Moreso. the alliance appear to be very incompetent because their intel doesnt have any idea about whats going on with the batarians.

Another problem that rise is that if it is possibile for shepard to stay alive under alliance custody and the batarians are ok with it. why not simply tell the batarians shepard is under custody while shepard can still go and do as he/she pleases.

Yes this horse was beaten to death long ago, but the problem is still there.

Best options are to write an alternative story which fits your playthrough or move on to another franchise-story.

Oh yes I fully understand why Shepard was in detention.  I'm saying it's ridiculous that it happened.  As I said and have said, the Alliance would have provided cover for what happened.  I can easily do so and have imagined this-the writers decided not to and so set up the need for the crap that came after.

Hackett and Anderson really look like bumbling idiots given how they handled this situation (the Arrival).  Take this as the first case scenario based upon doing the Arrival DLC (the alternate of not doing it is just as stupid).

Hackett sent Shepard to find the scientists.  Hackett ultimately was responsible for the mission.  He gets intel from the mission (that you pick up or should pick up) so he knows the reapers are coming (already knew that from ME1).  All he had to do was provide a story saying the scientists (now dead) were not all indoctrinated and had set the asteroid on the collision vector and that Shepard could not stop it.  Period.  The batarians would be angry no matter what.  But Hackett could have said Shepard was there to try and stop it and to get info on the reapers who were about to use the relay, so everyone should get ready for the reapers in some way.  Instead, he goes full idiot and apparently reveals that Shepard caused the deaths of 300k batarians and then sits on the reaper intel until they do attack.

Ok, that's the Arrival ME3 beginning.  If you don't play the Arrival, Shepard is in detention for some other reason.  People here have all assumed it's due to working with Cerberus and TIM.  Uh, ok.  But then comes Vega's story of the Alliance actually trying to save colonies but getting there too late after Shepard had already in some cases done so.  So what in the heck did Shepard do that was so bad?  Shepard didn't work with Cerberus to attack the Alliance or any allies, but was going after the Collectors.  So was James.  The Alliance left Shepard for dead-Shepard goes back to the Normandy crash site to honor those that died while working with Cerberus.  But James' story actually points out that Shepard was doing good things (unless you chose to do some of the loyalty missions in renegade fashion). 


ME3's whole beginning is just torn apart.  Something I knew already but ME1's ending just makes it more obvious.  It's just incredible to me especially if you add in the events in ME2 (and James' story) that the Alliance is so dumb.  It's like someone telling you guys with guns are headed to your house to kill you and you decide to take a nap.  But before you do, you lock your bodyguard in the closet.

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
And your friends are just sitting around doing nothing, while you (Shepard) sit idly in detention.

Like who? Garrus, who nagged the Turian government nonstop to get ready for the Reapers until they appointed a token task force? Or Tali, working with Legion to make peace to take back their homeworld so they wouldn't be hanging in space when the Reapers arrived? Liara, working to find a way to stop the Reapers and - don't forget - actually finding it?

It seems to me for the most part that anyone who could make a difference in preparing for the Reapers was. Except maybe Wrex, but do you entirely blame him for his "we get ours before you get your help" mentality?

I think you're being a little unfair here.

Anyone who could make a difference?  Like the people in power in the governments ignoring all the info/intel, including the Alliance that really did nothing to rebuild or draw together the fleets.  Most of the fleet had to be found by Shepard (you, me) during fetch quests.  The Turians had to be convinced.  The Asari wouldn't listen to Aethyta.  The Salarians were not doing much.  The Quarians were preparing to attack the geth.  The Krogan were still fighting clan skirmishes or whatever.  Cerberus was looking for ways to help the reapers so they could use them.  Nobody was doing much of anything.  Except a few rogue groups (some Salarian scientists, some mercs).

Now I know Tali may have been arguing against the quarians trying to go to war against the geth again (which they decided to do anyway).  But my statement was about the term friends as in all the allied races that Shepard had been repeatedly trying to help and not just close intimate friends.  The races as friends.

And yes, I do blame all of them for this "I get mine first" mentality.  Because ultimately no matter what they get, it's all a waste if the reapers win.  The whole beginning of the game is about robbing Peter to pay Paul-you know, shifting people around to cover things in order to move resources elsewhere.  What good does it do saving Rannoch if the reapers win?  Or Tuchanka?  Sure other events come up that we later find out have to be addressed (the Tuchanka bomb), but none of this was known initially.  It was all presented sort of as "help x save their planet so they will help save the galaxy".  It's wasted resources which is really what the arguing should have been about-not forcing Turians to protect Tuchanka or actually helping anyone to save their rock before the reapers destroyed it anyway.

Instead of taking some Turians to help on Tuchanka, the grey matter argument should have been "what good will it do saving it now if we lose the war?"

And the whole bit about Liara actually finding a way to get rid of the reapers is the silly part of it all-you can't argue with my stance that the galaxy needed to actually cohesively fight together or die and they don't so the writers had to come up with the crucible, by saying Liara was doing something because she found the crucible.  For me, the crucible (basically what it becomes) is why ME3 is so poorly written-well, it's either the reason or fills the void of the bad writing.

I'm saying the Council was a pack of idiots (there was a Turian on it, remember so why did Garrus have to argue with the Turians at all).  At the end of ME1, they knew the reapers were real.  I'm saying the Alliance was a pack of idiots because they had reams of intel about the reapers and sat on it (or the other governments would have realized they needed to stop the in-fighting, it was annihilation about to happen).  I'm saying that everything done in ME1 and 2 informed the governments, races, and especially the Alliance (that detained Shepard) that the reapers were real and coming and they mostly did nothing.  Leviathan makes it more clear as does Liara's find of the crucible which could have been nothing at all - about all that the Alliance helped with.  Oh, and Bryson (one scientist and his assistant). 

And armed with this evidence (including knowing the threat was real and having like 2 people do something), they still detained Shepard. 

Yeah, I'm being unfair.   

[Barquiel]

I always had the impression that the council races made some preparations after the events of ME1. The salarians built stealth dreadnoughts. The asari upgraded their ships (shielding and firepower). The turians developed the Thannix cannons and were already bolstering their crew complements in ME2. It simply wasn't enough to win conventionally (or maybe they thought they had more time to prepare).

[Wayning_Star]

how could the catalyst fool the entire MEU, especially what with the Leviathan escaping their respective harvest?

[CronoDragoon]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Now I know Tali may have been arguing against the quarians trying to go to war against the geth again (which they decided to do anyway).  But my statement was about the term friends as in all the allied races that Shepard had been repeatedly trying to help and not just close intimate friends.  The races as friends.

Well, they aren't my friends. I consider my friends my friends, but now you've clarified so it's just semantics. Yeah, the governments should have actually done stuff. Then again that's how governments roll.

And yes, I do blame all of them for this "I get mine first" mentality.  Because ultimately no matter what they get, it's all a waste if the reapers win.

Take care of yourself vs. do whatever to beat the Reapers is a false dichotomy. In Wrex's case curing the genophage can only benefit the allied forces, especially if you war drags on long enough for the next generation to matter. Taking care of yourself in the quarian and krogan case benefits the war effort.

And the whole bit about Liara actually finding a way to get rid of the reapers is the silly part of it all-you can't argue with my stance that the galaxy needed to actually cohesively fight together or die and they don't so the writers had to come up with the crucible, by saying Liara was doing something because she found the crucible.  For me, the crucible (basically what it becomes) is why ME3 is so poorly written-well, it's either the reason or fills the void of the bad writing.

The galaxy did fight together at the end which led to victory by using the Crucible. If you're implying here that the galaxy fighting cohesively would have meant anything without the Crucible then I disagree. Conventional victory is silly. In other words, something like the Crucible was always the answer.

And armed with this evidence (including knowing the threat was real and having like 2 people do something), they still detained Shepard.

Shepard went willingly, at least in my game.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 13 décembre 2013 - 04:41 .

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

And the whole bit about Liara actually finding a way to get rid of the reapers is the silly part of it all-you can't argue with my stance that the galaxy needed to actually cohesively fight together or die and they don't so the writers had to come up with the crucible, by saying Liara was doing something because she found the crucible.  For me, the crucible (basically what it becomes) is why ME3 is so poorly written-well, it's either the reason or fills the void of the bad writing.

The galaxy did fight together at the end which led to victory by using the Crucible. If you're implying here that the galaxy fighting cohesively would have meant anything without the Crucible then I disagree. Conventional victory is silly. In other words, something like the Crucible was always the answer.

Well, Bio could have retconned Reaoer strength down even further, etc., so conventional victory wouldn't have been silly. But we need to get the causality right here. Bio never wanted a conventional victory in the first place.

[Wayning_Star]

the idea of 'victory' in the face of all that happened/happens in the MEU to date and beyond seems incalculable...

only the catalyst seems to understand what that is, or.. could be. Organics just keep on trucking..as it were.

[durasteel]

3DandBeyond wrote...
...
ME3's whole beginning is just torn apart.  Something I knew already but ME1's ending just makes it more obvious.  It's just incredible to me especially if you add in the events in ME2 (and James' story) that the Alliance is so dumb.  It's like someone telling you guys with guns are headed to your house to kill you and you decide to take a nap.  But before you do, you lock your bodyguard in the closet.

ME3's beginning was almost as poorly written as its ending, but since it lacks the finality of the star kid's final insult to the player, you have a chance to get over it and enjoy the main body of the game (which was quite enjoyable.)

The opening shouldn't have been hard to write, I can't imagine why it turned out as poorly as it did. It should have begun with arguments at Shepard's trial, which would have served to bring new players up to speed on current events. Shepard could have become aware that the prosecutor was actually a big Shepard fan, and that the show trial was mostly Hackett's plan to get Shepard's experiences with the reapers out to the public despite the council and the Earth governments doing their best to keep a lid on it. Anderson could have provided Shepard's perspective for new players, while an imported Shepard might have spoken for himself. Interrupt the trial with the reaper attack.

The only explanation for the opening sequence that made it into the game is that it was literally the fastest way to get lines on a page to put in front of the voice actors who were already in the booth. We know that's how the ending happened, and I suspect the same is true of the beginning.

[CronoDragoon]

durasteel wrote...

The only explanation for the opening sequence that made it into the game is that it was literally the fastest way to get lines on a page to put in front of the voice actors who were already in the booth. We know that's how the ending happened, and I suspect the same is true of the beginning.

Yeah, they were already behind schedule. Personally I love ME3's opening. I think it sets the perfect tone for the game and the music is beautiful. I'm also not sure how anything Shepard says is more stupid than anything he says in the rest of the series. Since when has Shepard ever articulated more strategic awareness?

[DeinonSlayer]

I remember when I played the demo I thought it'd have been a nice twist if Hackett was killed in the fleet above Earth just in the initial attack.

[durasteel]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Yeah, they were already behind schedule. Personally I love ME3's opening. I think it sets the perfect tone for the game and the music is beautiful. I'm also not sure how anything Shepard says is more stupid than anything he says in the rest of the series. Since when has Shepard ever articulated more strategic awareness?

The music was good, but I have to say that "We fight or we die, that's the plan" might be, in my subjective opinion, the dumbest line ever out of Shepard's mouth. First time I heard it, I think I said out loud "No s#!t, Sherlock, but what's the plan for fighting these things?"

Maybe that's just me.