207 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I wish Shepard was the one that said that they need to get the council's support so the other fleets can help. Seemed simple enough.

[AlanC9]

durasteel wrote...

The music was good, but I have to say that "We fight or we die, that's the plan" might be, in my subjective opinion, the dumbest line ever out of Shepard's mouth. First time I heard it, I think I said out loud "No s#!t, Sherlock, but what's the plan for fighting these things?"

Maybe that's just me.

It's not like Shepard could actually have a plan there, though. He doesn't know of  any way to beat the Reapers after ME2.

This is where the DA2 model would have served well. "My plan was to spend the last few years building a couple of hundred dreadnoughts. What's yours?"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KaiserShep wrote...

I wish Shepard was the one that said that they need to get the council's support so the other fleets can help. Seemed simple enough.

It would have been a better line. Still naive, but better.

Earth was so new to the galactic scene they had not learned the harsh realities of survival in the galaxy: All for one and everyone for themselves. While the reapers were fighting us the rest could regroup. 

The Council was useless. They were like the mafia. It was a triumvirate of Asari, Salarian and Turian. They resented that they felt obligated to give the lowly humans a seat. Some of us didn't understand how badly the Council had been screwing over things in the galaxy for the past several centuries. They had been ignoring genocides, and only intevening in things when it served the interests of several corporations that ran the governments of the races involved. There were slave rebellions and massacres they ignored. They punished the Quarians for nearly getting exterminated (robot huggers hate me here) -- it was a "humanitarian" crisis and they should have helped the survivors. Instead because a few squatters settled on Ekuna before the "paperwork" was officially filed by the Migrant Fleet they threatened to send in the full force and bomb them out of existence, and gave the world to the Elcor. Then beginning in 2183 they ignored the abductions of human colonies by the Collectors. There were 12 of them overall. That 300,000 batarians Shepard killed blowing up the Alpha Relay was a drop in the bucket in comparison, and it didn't seem that the Council was overly concerned about that either because well, even though it was a mass relay, it was in a batarian system, and Batarians are even lower than humans and quarians. Vorcha aren't even considered a race.

So the humans have a spot on the Council only because they saved everything. Udina was the token Councilor with no power, and after Arcturus fell he became defacto civilian leader of the Alliance. The others? Merely representatives of their governments only doing what they were instructed on a need to know basis. The Asari being an e-democracy were really decentralized and really needed to regroup, and eventually did send support. Turians? Only if you got them the Krogan. The Salarians? They wouldn't commit hardly anything to the war effort unless you sabotaged the genophage cure.

This gets me thinking of who the villains are going to be in the next game... The Salarians. They came out of the war practically unscathed. They're highly intelligent, and now they probably they have the most powerful fleet in the galaxy. Highly intelligent ones make the best villains.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Julia
I wish we'd had more opportunity to call the Council out on some of that crap (besides the obvious "we have to go to Ilos" railroaded bits). To criticize the Council and the Alliance both. At least Shepard can acknowledge that the Council never gave a damn about the Quarians - I could see them using Bahak as a pretext to eject humanity from the Council if that plot point had been used for anything beyond an excuse to stick Shepard back on Earth. Useless obstructionists, the whole lot of them.

Let's not even discuss the beacon on Thessia... why the **** am I apologizing to her again?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 13 décembre 2013 - 07:27 .

[CronoDragoon]

durasteel wrote...

The music was good, but I have to say that "We fight or we die, that's the plan" might be, in my subjective opinion, the dumbest line ever out of Shepard's mouth. First time I heard it, I think I said out loud "No s#!t, Sherlock, but what's the plan for fighting these things?"

Maybe that's just me.

I don't think it's just you, and I'm not printing out that line and framing it in my room any time soon, but really Shepard is just a soldier. He's not particularly smart and he has no say in strategy. And as Alan pointed out, what has he learned about defeating the Reapers? Garrus points this out when discussing his task force: what did they really know? Perhaps there should have been a sarcastic, resentful option akin to what Alan said. But really all he is doing in what we got is telling the Alliance council not to act like ****** and get ready for a rough ride.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 13 décembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[durasteel]

CronoDragoon wrote...
... what has he learned about defeating the Reapers? Garrus points this out when discussing his task force: what did they really know? ...

I'll tell you one thing that always bugged me: Shepard had learned that the Reapers don't favor direct interaction but instead work through intermediaries, that indoctrination is their favorite tool, and that the link between the reaper and a subject under its control is a point of vulnerability for the reaper.

No one ever brought that up in the entire ME3 game. In fact, despite the way the side plots of ME3 did a pretty good job of tying up story arcs from the first and second game, the main reaper plot line seemed to be written in an effort to completely disregard the first game in its entirety.

[JamesFaith]

durasteel wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
... what has he learned about defeating the Reapers? Garrus points this out when discussing his task force: what did they really know? ...

I'll tell you one thing that always bugged me: Shepard had learned that the Reapers don't favor direct interaction but instead work through intermediaries, that indoctrination is their favorite tool, and that the link between the reaper and a subject under its control is a point of vulnerability for the reaper.

No one ever brought that up in the entire ME3 game. In fact, despite the way the side plots of ME3 did a pretty good job of tying up story arcs from the first and second game, the main reaper plot line seemed to be written in an effort to completely disregard the first game in its entirety.

1) He only know situation when only ONE Reaper is in galaxy or when Reapers are still outside galaxy. Zero value information for full scale invasion.

2) There were minimum proofs about that - Virmire facility destroyed, Saren dead and transformed, no other case known.  

3) Situation so unique and unexpected that it is useless during war. It is like saying that soldier is most valnurable when he is naked in the shower. Is it true, but completely useless on battlefield.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@Julia
I wish we'd had more opportunity to call the Council out on some of that crap (besides the obvious "we have to go to Ilos" railroaded bits). To criticize the Council and the Alliance both. At least Shepard can acknowledge that the Council never gave a damn about the Quarians - I could see them using Bahak as a pretext to eject humanity from the Council if that plot point had been used for anything beyond an excuse to stick Shepard back on Earth. Useless obstructionists, the whole lot of them.

Let's not even discuss the beacon on Thessia... why the **** am I apologizing to her again?

Bad writing is why you're apologizing to her. I would have had Shepard fire up a cigarette (yes, Shepard in my story smokes) gone down there and told her that the mission failed, but what she can't figure out was how the f*** Cerberus got there first.

Shepard (angry and disgusted): "Cerberus got there first, Councilor. They killed your scientists, and they got the data pack. We barely got out of there with our lives. (brief pause) Why the f*** did you give me that information in Udina's office? Did the possibility occur to you that the office might be bugged and that C-sec missed one? Did it also occur to you that C-sec is compromised by Cerberus? How the hell do you think Cerberus staged the f***ing Coup attempt in the first place? Damned good Asari commandos wasted their f***ing lives getting me into that temple. That's on you, Councilor! Now if you'll excuse me, I've got a war to figure out how to salvage. Shepard out."

I like the word f***.

Now coming off this, Shepard's pissed off remark to Joker makes more sense.

[durasteel]

JamesFaith wrote...
1) He only know situation when only ONE Reaper is in galaxy or when Reapers are still outside galaxy. Zero value information for full scale invasion.

2) There were minimum proofs about that - Virmire facility destroyed, Saren dead and transformed, no other case known.  

3) Situation so unique and unexpected that it is useless during war. It is like saying that soldier is most valnurable when he is naked in the shower. Is it true, but completely useless on battlefield.

1. Doesn't matter, the important thing is that it is a critical part of the design and behavior of a reaper.

2. You have proof enough, including dead collector specimens from ME2.

3. That is an incredibly limited perspective.

Cerberus seemed to understand the importance of indoctrination, and researched it. TIM was obsessed with trying to control the reapers, but that line of inquiry should have also lead to enough information to begin to understand how a reaper controls its thralls and how that feedback from Saren's death weakened Sovereign. Once the carrier signal and the feedback had been isolated it could have been possible to weaponize it, something similar to sonic weapons used against humans.

The point is that it is the one time that we had direct knowledge of a vulnerability specific to reapers, and we spent the enitre second game seeing the same mechanism (assuming direct control) in action, but then it was never brought up again, because reasons.

[CronoDragoon]

durasteel wrote...

No one ever brought that up in the entire ME3 game. In fact, despite the way the side plots of ME3 did a pretty good job of tying up story arcs from the first and second game, the main reaper plot line seemed to be written in an effort to completely disregard the first game in its entirety.

In this particular case: Good. That whole Sovereign controlling Saren's synthetics and the shield thing was stupid.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shepard also derped on Virmire not taking any of the data from Rana Thanoptis about reaper indoctrination.

[Barquiel]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Council was useless. They were like the mafia. It was a triumvirate of Asari, Salarian and Turian. They resented that they felt obligated to give the lowly humans a seat. Some of us didn't understand how badly the Council had been screwing over things in the galaxy for the past several centuries. They had been ignoring genocides, and only intevening in things when it served the interests of several corporations that ran the governments of the races involved. There were slave rebellions and massacres they ignored. They punished the Quarians for nearly getting exterminated (robot huggers hate me here) -- it was a "humanitarian" crisis and they should have helped the survivors. Instead because a few squatters settled on Ekuna before the "paperwork" was officially filed by the Migrant Fleet they threatened to send in the full force and bomb them out of existence, and gave the world to the Elcor. Then beginning in 2183 they ignored the abductions of human colonies by the Collectors. There were 12 of them overall. That 300,000 batarians Shepard killed blowing up the Alpha Relay was a drop in the bucket in comparison, and it didn't seem that the Council was overly concerned about that either because well, even though it was a mass relay, it was in a batarian system, and Batarians are even lower than humans and quarians. Vorcha aren't even considered a race.

I agree that the Council isn't a shining example of a galactic UN or something, but it has done alot to ensure the relative peace and stability of the galaxy. That and under their leadership only two galactic wars had broken out in a period of over two thousand years (and both conflicts were not the council's fault...nothing they could do would make peace with a mind twisted by the Leviathans).

In the end, the council is merely a formal agreement to cooperate between different governments, and they exercise very little control compared to that exercised by earth powers over those within their sphere of influence for example. There are certainly complaints which can be made about the system (for example spectres; I'd also add a rotating seat for the minor races), but  it is perhaps the best government one could expect for such a wide and diverse galaxy. And remember that membership is voluntary...you can always leave, if you don't feel you're getting a good deal.

And really, Humans have been treated great by the Council. Hell, humanity would have probably been conquered by the Turians without council intervention...and the three council races could have crushed the Alliance at any time (we're told, for example, that an embargo by the asari would prove disastrous to the Alliance). There is also a news report that the council did send the STG to investigate the colony attacks if you saved the Destiny Ascension in ME1. As for the Quarians...presumably the council thought that the geth might attack the rest of Citadel space if they intervened (which, to be fair, seems likely). Or maybe the Quarians have refused foreign assistance in the first place? According to the codex they only pleaded for help from the Citadel Council when they had already lost Rannoch and their colony worlds. I guess they tried to handle it themselves rather than request a Turian strike force that cares little about wrecking the quarian worlds. And it's also safe to assume that a lot of people in C-Space would have rightfully argued that the Quarians are committing genocide upon a sentient race. But I agree that Ekuna was too harsh. I think they gave the rights to the elcor who they felt were better suited to the planet's high gravity.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
This gets me thinking of who the villains are going to be in the next game... The Salarians. They came out of the war practically unscathed. They're highly intelligent, and now they probably they have the most powerful fleet in the galaxy. Highly intelligent ones make the best villains.

They're also remarkably absent in the epilogue slides. We only see Humans, Turians and Asari working together...

Modifié par Barquiel, 13 décembre 2013 - 08:45 .

[Daemul]

Sovereigns vulnerability was addressed in the Secondary section of the ME3 Codex in "The Reapers" section under the title "Reaper Vulnerabilities". The Reapers fixed the problem it seems, they no longer suffer from that design flaw, which is a relief because it was so stupid.

[JamesFaith]

durasteel wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
1) He only know situation when only ONE Reaper is in galaxy or when Reapers are still outside galaxy. Zero value information for full scale invasion.

1. Doesn't matter, the important thing is that it is a critical part of the design and behavior of a reaper.

It is "critical part of behavior" of one Reaper isolated from others. Are we fighting against solitary Reapers or against groups of Reapers now?

There are different military tactics for individual, small teams, small groups and whole armies and from one sample you can't exactly deduce acting of others.

durasteel wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

2) There were minimum proofs about that - Virmire facility destroyed, Saren dead and transformed, no other case known.  

2. You have proof enough, including dead collector specimens from ME2.

And how exactly dead corpse is usefull for research of psychic phenomen?  Because there were control through implants (Saren, Collectors, Grayson) and psychic - indoctrination - control (Benezia - dead, salarians on Virmire - dead). Second can't by researched without living specimen. Or living Reaper. Do you have some?

durasteel wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

3) Situation so unique and unexpected that it is useless during war. It is like saying that soldier is most valnurable when he is naked in the shower. Is it true, but completely useless on battlefield.

3. That is an incredibly limited perspective.

Limited perspective?

There is only one known case of destruction of Reaper through connection with another body. And it was unique situation because Sovereign was attached to Citadel and Saren augmented and dead before control. Harbinger later more then once proved that standard connection with dying thrall isnť problem to him.

[durasteel]

CronoDragoon wrote...
In this particular case: Good. That whole Sovereign controlling Saren's synthetics and the shield thing was stupid.

It was less stupid the Crucible, and not even in the same league of stupid as the Catalyst.

[CronoDragoon]

durasteel wrote...

It was less stupid the Crucible, and not even in the same league of stupid as the Catalyst.

The Crucible? Oh, you mean Synthesis? Point taken.

[durasteel]

JamesFaith wrote...

It is "critical part of behavior" of one Reaper isolated from others. Are we fighting against solitary Reapers or against groups of Reapers now?
...
And how exactly dead corpse is usefull for research of psychic phenomen?  Because there were control through implants (Saren, Collectors, Grayson) and psychic - indoctrination - control (Benezia - dead, salarians on Virmire - dead). Second can't by researched without living specimen. Or living Reaper. Do you have some?
...
Harbinger later more then once proved that standard connection with dying thrall isnť problem to him.

I am quite obviously talking about the implants. It shouldn't matter whether the reaper is alone or in a group, if you can broadcast a signal that weakens them based on a physical vulnerability. Harbinger proved nothing, since it was in dark space and Shepard had no way to know whether killing its thrall weakened it or not.

[durasteel]

Daemul wrote...

Sovereigns vulnerability was addressed in the Secondary section of the ME3 Codex in "The Reapers" section under the title "Reaper Vulnerabilities". The Reapers fixed the problem it seems, they no longer suffer from that design flaw, which is a relief because it was so stupid.

I didn't get that memo.

[N7Gold]

"This basically means to me that all of the beginning of ME3 was a mess. Coupled with the Arrival and other events in ME2, Shepard never should have been in detention (never would have been) AND the galaxy as well as especially Shepard's ex-teammates would not have been off sleeping somewhere. The Alliance had the info from data Shepard could have chosen to give them from ME2 as well as evidence from the lab in Leviathan (pieces of Sovereign), and Anderson clearly realized the Reapers were still a threat. This is just one more reason why I think the game as a whole began badly. And because no one in authority was trying to even prepare for any Reaper invasion, the writers had to create this foolish scenario where there was no possible way, outside of the little God-boy and the crucible to create a real path to victory. They had created the most idiotic people and galaxy except for one person, Shepard, and then they had Shepard lay around in detention. Brilliant."


I understand that you're frustrated about the galaxy learning about the Reaper threat at the last minute, but that's no excuse to say the beginning of ME3 was a mess. That's basically how some protagonists like Shepard have been treated, they learn about some imminent threat, warn their allies about it, and what happens? They are dismissed as insane. Some people believe the protagonist, but the majority of them do not, I've seen this kind of plot before in movies several times, and I feel the frustration of the protagonist in the process. As for my Shepard, his frustration was mine as well.  You can't say that Shepard could have sent the pieces of Sovereign from the Leviathan DLC, because the Leviathan DLC happens during ME3, when the existence of the Reapers is already known, so that would make no difference. If Shepard had the assistance of Task Force aurora 3 years ago during ME1, it would have made a difference, even Shepard told Bryson that.

And about the Reapers, well, since have had control over the evolution of organic life for many eons by allowing them access to Mass Effect technology, a technology THEY created, and they are trying to find a certain solution for the Leviathans that "preserves" the lives of organic and synthetic life and allows them to regain their former glory as the galaxy's "only" apex race, you have little choice on how to beat them-- you either have to play along with their game, or let them kill you. In short, you have no choice but to meet the Catalyst and use the Crucible, and this leads me to believe that the Reapers are the ones who designed the Crucible. If it was created by the victims of the Reapers, why do the solutions the Crucible offiers threatens to challenge our morality? Why can't the Crucible only destroy the Reapers? Is control over the Reapers absolute or will they break free one day? Why is Synthesis the ideal solution, and how will it help the Leviathans control all life like they used to before the Reapers existed? Why can't there be a simple "Reaper blow up" button?

Modifié par N7Gold, 14 décembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[Deathsaurer]

Sovereign was very shrewd with his application of indoctrination. It's actually kinda jarring that the Reapers really don't bother with it in ME3 beyond Cerberus.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 14 décembre 2013 - 01:55 .

[AlanC9]

N7Gold wrote...
In short, you have no choice but to meet the Catalyst and use the Crucible, and this leads me to believe that the Reapers are the ones who designed the Crucible. If it was created by the victims of the Reapers, why do the solutions the Crucible offiers threatens to challenge our morality? Why can't the Crucible only destroy the Reapers? Is control over the Reapers absolute or will they break free one day? Why is Synthesis the ideal solution, and how will it help the Leviathans control all life like they used to before the Reapers existed? Why can't there be a simple "Reaper blow up" button?

 Why would a Reaper-designed Crucible include Destroy? Why would it only be able to Destroy in some low EMS conditions? If a perfectly-functioning Crucible is what the Reapers want, why are they shooting at it?

[KaiserShep]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Shepard also derped on Virmire not taking any of the data from Rana Thanoptis about reaper indoctrination.

Rana was too busy being dead to help my Shepard out with information. "Everyone in this place is trying to kill me!"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KaiserShep wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Shepard also derped on Virmire not taking any of the data from Rana Thanoptis about reaper indoctrination.

Rana was too busy being dead to help my Shepard out with information. "Everyone in this place is trying to kill me!"

Damn, Shepard. My Shepard needs to take lessons from yours.

But did you shoot Wrex? 

[KaiserShep]

No, Wrex lives in my main playthrough. I give him the benefit of the doubt as he's not an accomplice of Saren's, and he's not at risk of indoctrination since he spent the entire time on the Normandy. And, while I understand the reason why someone would choose to have him die instead, I can understand his position, and he can be reasoned with. Anyone working closely with Saren dies immediately. I left all of the Salarians in their cells on Virmire too, even the coherent one.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 décembre 2013 - 05:58 .

[N7Gold]

AlanC9 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...
In short, you have no choice but to meet the Catalyst and use the Crucible, and this leads me to believe that the Reapers are the ones who designed the Crucible. If it was created by the victims of the Reapers, why do the solutions the Crucible offiers threatens to challenge our morality? Why can't the Crucible only destroy the Reapers? Is control over the Reapers absolute or will they break free one day? Why is Synthesis the ideal solution, and how will it help the Leviathans control all life like they used to before the Reapers existed? Why can't there be a simple "Reaper blow up" button?

 Why would a Reaper-designed Crucible include Destroy? Why would it only be able to Destroy in some low EMS conditions? If a perfectly-functioning Crucible is what the Reapers want, why are they shooting at it?

Good question. If you completed the Crucible and discovered that it can't destroy the Reapers but can only control them and reach synthesis, wouldn't you be suspicious of the Catalyst then and refuse to use the Crucible at all? Shepard's goal ever since the beginning of the trilogy is to destroy the Reapers before they destroy all organic life, but I've noticed clues that destroying all life is not the true goal of the Reapers, considering that the Catalyst is still trying to fulfill a purpose the Leviathans requested it to find.

The Catalyst presented the destroy option first, and we are like: "All right! We can win this war!" But when he tells you about the consequences of destroying the Reapers, destroying all other synthetic life and leaving the organic life open for another conflict with synthetic life in the near future, we are like: "...Damn it all!" that is, if we saved the geth or made peace between the geth and quarians and allowed Joker and EDI to advance their relationship, and we start wondering if there are better options to stop them, and amazingly, there are. That's when the Catalyst presents the control and synthesis options. My point is the Catalyst seems to know that not all organics have the courage to make the hard decisions, like sacrificing the lives of a race of organics or even synthetics to destroy an enemy that can't be defeated conventionally, and he does not want us to refuse to use the Crucible, which is why he said "Then you will die knowing that you failed to save the lives you've been fighting for", and he wants to discourage you from destroying the Reapers, because without them, everything he is trying to do for the Leviathans will be undone.


A low EMS Crucible is an incomplete Crucible, it needs to be fully complete to have all three solutions available (mostly the ideal solution), and the Catalyst is a bit cold towards Shepard because Shepard's actions fell below expectations. Also, the Reapers weren't really shooting at the Crucible, but at the fleets defending it. If you take too long making your choice or refuse to use the Crucible, then they really will destroy it.

Modifié par N7Gold, 14 décembre 2013 - 12:10 .