349 réponses à ce sujet

[Jozape]

bussinrounds wrote...

To be honest, in RtwP games everything is so chaotic once you unpause, I can't even enjoy the animations anyway, the way I can in TB games.

Conversely, most combat animations are not worth watching by themselves one by one, unless they look dramatic or even ridiculous, like in Final Fantasy Tactics. There is something to be said about seeing everything unfold at once too.

[TheRealJayDee]

Relationships of all sorts are a good thing to have in games that focus on story and characters, and that imo inculdes romantic involvements. I wouldn't call them an absolute neccessity, though, and I don't think they should be a top priority aspect of a game like PoE.

[Seagloom]

simfamSP wrote...

I haven't found that at all, tbh. I prefer BioWare's romances. I find myself caring a lot more for them. Perhaps they aren't as "deep" but depth doesn't automatically mean "better."

I'd argue deep does equal better when the relationship in question is meant to come across as a strong and meaningful bond between individuals. If the relationship in question is casual, or never reaches past flirtation, then it can get away with not necessarily being deep. Going from flirting, to sex, to true wub without the depth to string that together makes the relationship seem weak and forced. Like it only exists because the writers tell us it does with a few sentences.

simfanSP...

As long as they give us another Kreia I'm fine. That woman is no doubt the best companion in a video game ever. The depth that went into her is amazing. I've read novels with characters who aren't as well characterized. The symbiosis you share, the relationship, the sheer talent of script behind that one character makes for every fault in KOTOR2. The way it flows beautifully with the game and dialogue, the way...

Argh! I can just talk about her forever. And it's great how you can love her, and she loves you but in a much deeper sense than any romance could ever fulfil.

That woman makes KOTOR2.

Just a personal opinion here, obviously... but I really hope they don't. >.< Kreia is an amazing character. One of my favorites of all gaming, easily. However, I'd prefer Obsidian try something new. I think the next Kreia will only come about if they don't try to actually emulate Kreia. Exploring different ways to connect NPCs to the PC in story and personal interaction is what I want to see them try. Well, with at least one NPC. Retreading old ground is more likely to produce a weaker character that will just be unfavorably compared to Kreia.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 décembre 2013 - 09:53 .

[MerinTB]

Seagloom wrote...
It took me back to Icewind Dale. Those portraits have a serious Justin Sweet and Jason Manley vibe going which I love. So not disappointed over donating to their Kickstarter.

I felt the same, and I feel the same way about the Wasteland 2 beta, actually - those character potraits ALSO strongly resemble Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 portaits.

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...
Have you ever played an Obsidian game before? Or the games that Pillars of Eternity are attempting to emulate?

If someone played, say, NWN2 (OC or Mask of the Betrayer) or Alpha Protocol, it wouldn't be unreasonable at all to expect a romance. I'd say even if someone played KoTOR 2 it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a romance. And certainly if we say that PE is attempting to emulate BG2... 

I imagine you're talking about companionship other than romances, but I it occured to me that historically Obsidian has been very much on the "have romances" side of things, even if they were forced to by the powers that be. 

Yep.

Hey, In Exile, we've agreed on something again.

[Seagloom]

@simfamSP

At a basic level we sort of agree, yes. Where I differ is that I do not see BioWare's approach as much of an improvement. I think some of their party NPC interactions could stand to be deeper--particular where romantic relationships are involved. Having more to them would be an improvement.

Obsidian is worse at that, however--as you suggested with Elanee. I just feel that the tone of a romance shouldn't be of the deep, forever love variety if the way a writer conveys it makes more sense as a fling or friends with benefits situation. The result is either jarring, or forced beyond credulity.

It seems like instead of trying to write different kinds of relationships, romantic or otherwise, they keep trying to hit the same boxes on a checklist. The less a character fits into their assigned box on that list, the greater a stretch it is to believably force them into it.

Until I see more of that and less of going down that checklist, I rather they stay away from something as potentially complex as serious romantic relationships. Romances seem the least likely to avoid that trap due to the expectations people place on them.

Kreia stood out because she resided in a perfectly Kreia-shaped box. She just was. Ditto with certain other characters such as Ravel Puzzlewell. Obsidian took up most of KotOR2 thoroughly exploring Kreia's nature, ideals, and connection to the Exile. Likewise, a sizable chunk of PST was spent understanding who Ravel Puzzlewell was in order to locate her.

Without even half that attention to detail, I think the typical romance arc these games go for will always fall flat. They might be entertaining, but they will never approach believability or provoke deeper thought. Not unlike eating a delightful confection that tastes great and makes you feel good, but has no real substance past the brief pleasurable sensations it creates.

The exception is if a game's plot is structured in such a way that a drawn out growing relationship does not need to be explored. It worked in Alpha Protocol, for example, because the pacing and style of that game fit an action movie where everything happens in a flash. That doesn't make as much sense in a game taking place over a period of months, or even years depending on how the passage of time is handled.

My hope is Avellone, Ziets, and whoever else may have writing duties on PoE breaks away from the norm instead of trying to fit characters into it somehow. That is what they excel at besides. I want to see them explore different sorts of connections between people as you suggest, instead of shooting for a goal to meet fan expectations. I can only hope what Avellone said in an interview last year still holds true today:

"So if I were to implement a romance subplot in Eternity - I wouldn’t. I’d examine interpersonal relationships from another angle and I wouldn’t confine it to love and romance. Maybe I’d explore it after a “loving” relationship crashed and burned, and one or both was killed in the aftermath enough for them to see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise. Or maybe I’d explore a veteran’s love affair with his craft of murder and allowing souls to be freed to travel beyond their bleeding shell, or a Cipher’s obsession with plucking the emotions of deep-rooted souls to try and see what makes people attracted to each other beyond their baser instincts and discovers love... specifically, his love of manipulating others. You could build an entire dungeon and quest where he devotes himself to replicating facsimiles of love, reducer a Higher Love to a baser thing and using NPCs he encounters as puppets for his experimentations, turning something supposedly beautiful into something filthy, mechanical, but surrounded by blank-eyed soul-twisted drones echoing all the hollow Disney-like platitudes and fairy tale existence where everyone lives happily ever after." -- Chris Avellone

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 décembre 2013 - 01:08 .

[MerinTB]

Seagloom wrote...

"So if I were to implement a romance subplot in Eternity - I wouldn’t. I’d examine interpersonal relationships from another angle and I wouldn’t confine it to love and romance. Maybe I’d explore it after a “loving” relationship crashed and burned, and one or both was killed in the aftermath enough for them to see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise. Or maybe I’d explore a veteran’s love affair with his craft of murder and allowing souls to be freed to travel beyond their bleeding shell, or a Cipher’s obsession with plucking the emotions of deep-rooted souls to try and see what makes people attracted to each other beyond their baser instincts and discovers love... specifically, his love of manipulating others. You could build an entire dungeon and quest where he devotes himself to replicating facsimiles of love, reducer a Higher Love to a baser thing and using NPCs he encounters as puppets for his experimentations, turning something supposedly beautiful into something filthy, mechanical, but surrounded by blank-eyed soul-twisted drones echoing all the hollow Disney-like platitudes and fairy tale existence where everyone lives happily ever after." -- Chris Avellone

He must be quite the catch.  I'm sure his OkCupid profile has a long list of "I get him next"'s.

[Seagloom]

It's probably wrong I find that kind of loathing tinged musing mildly attractive. >.> If nothing else, he would probably be a very interesting person to converse with. That scores tons of points with me on its own.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 décembre 2013 - 01:31 .

[In Exile]

On the subject of romances, I think what Bioware does works very well with what amounts to a "hero-worship" type of main character and borderline chosen-one plot. Characters swoon around the protagonist because of his or her inherent charisma and clearly world-beating talent - romantic swooning is just a more general part of the protagonist-centered swooning that these games are built around.

It's when the game steps outside of that box that romances start to seem problematic and simplistic, i.e., when the reason they're their is to actually say something about relationships vs. to be empowering fodder for the player.

[Chewin]

Looks absolutely stunning! Will keep my eyes on this for sure in the future.

[Nerevar-as]

simfamSP wrote...

UltimaBACON wrote...

Despite Chris Avellone's stated indifference toward romances, I found what passes for romance in Obsidian's games, understated as it typically is, to be much more compelling than any of BioWare's romances.

I haven't found that at all, tbh. I prefer BioWare's romances. I find myself caring a lot more for them. Perhaps they aren't as "deep" but depth doesn't automatically mean "better." That's why I prefer the ME romance archs. No one from the original cast really says I love you until the end. It felt quite rushed and tacky when Annah from PST was all like "YOU AIN'T TOUCHING MY MAN, ****." But to be fair, everything else in that game is superb, the romances aren't as interesting as the relationships between companions.

As long as they give us another Kreia I'm fine. That woman is no doubt the best companion in a video game ever. The depth that went into her is amazing. I've read novels with characters who aren't as well characterized. The symbiosis you share, the relationship, the sheer talent of script behind that one character makes for every fault in KOTOR2. The way it flows beautifully with the game and dialogue, the way...

Argh! I can just talk about her forever. And it's great how you can love her, and she loves you but in a much deeper sense than any romance could ever fulfil.

That woman makes KOTOR2.

And then she turns out to be a whiny little sith who can´t get over the fact the Force doesn´t like wannabe galactic
tyrants, so all is the Force´s fault for not allowing what she wanted. Shut up and die, hag.

[Fast Jimmy]

Seagloom wrote...

It's probably wrong I find that kind of loathing tinged musing mildly attractive. >.> If nothing else, he would probably be a very interesting person to converse with. That scores tons of points with me on its own.

When creating an entirely new world, with scores of new cultures, locations, interdependencies and peoples, it seem really kind of silly (if not outright shallow) for a developer to go for the low hanging fruit of romance. 

If it really is the case where Avelone doesn't like romances (or that he can't do them well), then all the better. I'd rather explore the myraid of new possibilities in a new world rather than be stuck in a "hero meets LI, LI is impressed by the awesomeness that is the hero, hero and LI fall in love, pledging undying loyalty to each other." Yawn.

[Angrywolves]

fast jimmy doesn't like romances.,
lol.

[Fast Jimmy]

Angrywolves wrote...

fast jimmy doesn't like romances.,
lol.

I don't like romantic stories. I'm a romantic at heart, believe it or not. Finding my wife was the single most amazing thing I have ever experienced in my life.

But romantic comedies, or dramas that focus on romance between two characters, or video games that have every NPC worship at the feet of the almighty Sheph... I mean, protagonist... those aren't good stories to me. They seem very self-serving and pandering.

In a world where everything (literally) is brand new to us as outside players, where magical forces and powerful armies and exotic people and locations exist, all waiting for the player to discover... why do we want to focus on pillow-talk or gushing like teen adolescents about how much two video game characters love each other? It seems like wasted potential to me. shrugs

[Sigma Tauri]

My guess is that it's supposed to add another dimension to NPCs by making them less like wooden stiffs and more like people with urges and needs. Honestly, people are more at ease if NPCs show that they're more capable than battle and an in-game romance allows them to see what it's like to be in a relationship with that particular NPC.

My feelings about in-game romances are that they suck and hackneyed, especially Bioware's. Thank God I'm not forced into it, but sometimes it feels like you're being railroaded into it unless you kinda have to say I'm not interested. I like saying "We should just keep it professional." However, I don't mind including a romance, but not the dating simulation slop that makes in-game romances unbearable.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 14 décembre 2013 - 02:08 .

[addiction21]

At least on the BSN I have noticed two things. There are those that are obsessed with romances and those that are obsessed with complaining about them and blowing them out of proportion.

This whole dating sim rhetoric came around so I sought one out and no BioWare does not do dating sims in any way. I doubt any romance in a BioWare game has even come close to half an hour of time spent dealing with them nor are they required in anyway to progress in the game.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But romantic comedies, or dramas that focus on romance between two characters, or video games that have every NPC worship at the feet of the almighty Sheph... I mean, protagonist... those aren't good stories to me. They seem very self-serving and pandering.

In a world where everything (literally) is brand new to us as outside players, where magical forces and powerful armies and exotic people and locations exist, all waiting for the player to discover... why do we want to focus on pillow-talk or gushing like teen adolescents about how much two video game characters love each other? It seems like wasted potential to me. shrugs

I think the issue is that not everyone wants a game that is something other than self-serving or pandering. A lot of quite popular stories - and genres, etc. - are very much about empowering the reader via the POV character. RPGs (and video-games in general) just take that to another level. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. 

In fact, I think Bioware's been going in the wrong direction (narrative-wise) ever since they moved away from this essentially Silver Age-ish moral play that they were involved in the old BG2/KoTOR days. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But romantic comedies, or dramas that focus on romance between two characters, or video games that have every NPC worship at the feet of the almighty Sheph... I mean, protagonist... those aren't good stories to me. They seem very self-serving and pandering.

In a world where everything (literally) is brand new to us as outside players, where magical forces and powerful armies and exotic people and locations exist, all waiting for the player to discover... why do we want to focus on pillow-talk or gushing like teen adolescents about how much two video game characters love each other? It seems like wasted potential to me. shrugs

^

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But romantic comedies, or dramas that focus on romance between two characters, or video games that have every NPC worship at the feet of the almighty Sheph... I mean, protagonist... those aren't good stories to me. They seem very self-serving and pandering.

In a world where everything (literally) is brand new to us as outside players, where magical forces and powerful armies and exotic people and locations exist, all waiting for the player to discover... why do we want to focus on pillow-talk or gushing like teen adolescents about how much two video game characters love each other? It seems like wasted potential to me. shrugs

I think the issue is that not everyone wants a game that is something other than self-serving or pandering. A lot of quite popular stories - and genres, etc. - are very much about empowering the reader via the POV character. RPGs (and video-games in general) just take that to another level. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. 

Wrong? No. Slightly boring? Yes. In my book, at least.

I can enjoy these types of things in more passive media. But I've literally been expereincing this through my gaming experience, which makes the player the one involved with the activity, instead of just watching it on screen, now for decades. Sure, there wasn't overt romance scenes, but we all saved the princess in castle in Super Mario brothers... or saved the princess in the castle in Zelda. To me, Liara coming into my cabin and saying "we're all depending on you, Shephard... I'm going to make holograms in case we all die that will talk about how great you are that will play tens of thousands of years from now" is in a close enough neighborhood for me to, again, say... "yawn."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 14 décembre 2013 - 04:54 .

[Seagloom]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

When creating an entirely new world, with scores of new cultures, locations, interdependencies and peoples, it seem really kind of silly (if not outright shallow) for a developer to go for the low hanging fruit of romance. 

If it really is the case where Avelone doesn't like romances (or that he can't do them well), then all the better. I'd rather explore the myraid of new possibilities in a new world rather than be stuck in a "hero meets LI, LI is impressed by the awesomeness that is the hero, hero and LI fall in love, pledging undying loyalty to each other." Yawn.

I'll admit, I don't understand the context of why you quoted that post. >.>

In any case, I agree time is better spent building the world and exploring other types of relationships. Maybe my opinion was buried in the walls o' text, but I rather they not include romances given the results of some past efforts.

That said, I do not think romance is shallow by default. I do think writing a meaningful romance would take a degree of effort and attention to detail that most CRPG devs would be unwilling to devote to them. That issue is not solely limited to romances, either. There are certain facets of the human experience that are simply not possible to fully explore within the narrow confines of a fantasy CRPG. Go figure. XD

simfamSP wrote...

@seagloom

Sorry for not replying properly, right now I'm too drunk and tomorrow won't be good either. But we'll have a proper conversation about this before the weekend's done!

Don't worry about. I will probably be too busy for a lengthy back and forth myself today. Enjoy your weekend.

Modifié par Seagloom, 14 décembre 2013 - 08:46 .