195 réponses à ce sujet

[CosmicGnosis]

If Destroy had been clearly conveyed as a Renegade choice, such as placing it at the bottom-right of the dialogue wheel, what would have been the common reaction? Frustration that killing the Reapers is the "bad" choice? Satisfaction from the fact that Paragon is finally not the "right" choice? Would people still try to argue that Destroy is the Paragon choice?

The lack of a dialogue wheel for the ending choices makes them ambiguous, and I think that's a good thing. But there are many people who believe that Destroy is Paragon, and I just have to wonder what they would think if Destroy had been presented as a Renegade choice.


EDIT: To those who say that Destroy is Paragon because the Low-EMS variant depends upon the destruction of the Collector Base in ME2 (Paragon choice), keep in mind that this is quite possibly the worst ending. Low-EMS Destroy annihilates most life in the galaxy, whereas Low-EMS Control just damages things.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 12 décembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[David7204]

You'd have to do a lot more than put in on the bottom of the wheel.

[DeinonSlayer]

Flip the bird at whoever decided to put it there (if they expect me to view it as the "bad guy" choice) and choose it anyway.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Steelcan]

You could always argue that it is presented as the Renegade choice, you are sacrificing one group for the greater good and its color is red.

Control on the other saves everyone's life and is blue...

[Br3admax]

Why would I care, I don't pick choices by the color they represent on the dialogue wheel, which is pretty much what we got anyway.

[dreamgazer]

It kinda was, strangely enough, and I do think that was an intentional subversion.

[Slayer299]

I thought it was already clear that Destroy was the "renegade" choice in the first place.

[themikefest]

I wouldn't care if its renegade or paragon.

I will always choose destroy.

[dreamgazer]

Slayer299 wrote...

I thought it was already clear that Destroy was the "renegade" choice in the first place.

Nah.  Control having both paragon and renegade flavors nixes that idea.

None of the choices have a specified blue or red alignment.

[Michotic]

I also thought it was presented as such. There was just debate as to whether it's really a trick or not.

[Rotward]

David7204 wrote...

You'd have to do a lot more than put in on the bottom of the wheel.

But it's already red, and you shoot something, that's all three components of the renegade! 

Or did we forget chemical x? 

[CosmicGnosis]

Actually, when I first played through the ending, I didn't notice the colors. I didn't interpret red as Renegade and blue as Paragon. I was actually rather impressed that the dialogue wheel was missing, and interpreted it as a lack of developer judgment for the choices. It wasn't until I finished the game and encountered the rage online that I realized that the colors could have meant something. And even then, people were arguing that the colors were deceptive.

[DeinonSlayer]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Actually, when I first played through the ending, I didn't notice the colors. I didn't interpret red as Renegade and blue as Paragon. I was actually rather impressed that the dialogue wheel was missing, and interpreted it as a lack of developer judgment for the choices. It wasn't until I finished the game and encountered the rage online that I realized that the colors could have meant something. And even then, people were arguing that the colors were deceptive.

This really only matters to people who let the color or the position of a dialogue option on the wheel dictate their actions and positions to them.

I still think paragon/renegade points ought to go away, if only to encourage people to think for themselves. There are better ways to handle a persuasion mechanic.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:04 .

[Sion1138]

It isn't renegade in the sense of just being an a-hole, which seemed to be the gist of most regular renegade choices.

But it is renegade in the sense that you break the shackles of control and let the chips fall where they may.

It's the good old [order vs. chaos] or [control vs. liberty] argument. 

But as such it would be a standard stupidly over-simplified dichotomy, so I guess I prefer no such interpretation.

Modifié par Sion1138, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:08 .

[CosmicGnosis]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Actually, when I first played through the ending, I didn't notice the colors. I didn't interpret red as Renegade and blue as Paragon. I was actually rather impressed that the dialogue wheel was missing, and interpreted it as a lack of developer judgment for the choices. It wasn't until I finished the game and encountered the rage online that I realized that the colors could have meant something. And even then, people were arguing that the colors were deceptive.

This really only matters to people who let the color or the position of a dialogue option on the wheel dictate their actions and positions to them.

Exactly. I suspect that many people played like that. That's why I wonder how they would have reacted if the game had said "Destroy is Renegade." Maybe it would have forced them to re-evaluate everything they thought about the concept of Renegade?

[David7204]

It would certainly cause me to reconsider BioWare's concept of 'Renegade.'

But does it go an iota in proving or suggesting Renegade is 'good?' No.

Stories cannot prove things.

Modifié par David7204, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:10 .

[Deathsaurer]

Why does the silly morality system need to be tied to the ending?

[KaiserShep]

I pick whatever's closest to setting a ranting krogan on fire. I call it the Weyrloc effect.

[eyezonlyii]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Actually, when I first played through the ending, I didn't notice the colors. I didn't interpret red as Renegade and blue as Paragon. I was actually rather impressed that the dialogue wheel was missing, and interpreted it as a lack of developer judgment for the choices. It wasn't until I finished the game and encountered the rage online that I realized that the colors could have meant something. And even then, people were arguing that the colors were deceptive.

This really only matters to people who let the color or the position of a dialogue option on the wheel dictate their actions and positions to them.

Exactly. I suspect that many people played like that. That's why I wonder how they would have reacted if the game had said "Destroy is Renegade." Maybe it would have forced them to re-evaluate everything they thought about the concept of Renegade?

Then it would have been like inFamous 2 in which you can play good or evil Cole all the way to the end, then possibly have to play many more missions to switch your karma enough to get a diferent ending. Also, on that subject, the way Sucker Punch determined the canon for their next sequel is probably the most fair way to do it. they based it on what ending trophy most people unlocked fist. This was the "good" ending, but as such, Cole is dead and the world has moved on. If Bioware did something like this with ME next, I would be (more) okay wih the outcome.

[dreamgazer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Why does the silly morality system need to be tied to the ending?

It doesn't.  It isn't.

[Deathsaurer]

dreamgazer wrote...

It doesn't.  It isn't.

Seems like some people want it to be for some reason.

[CosmicGnosis]

I just find it difficult to believe that Paragon Control is an "evil" ending. It is a common view at BSN that Paragon Control is essentially the same as Renegade Control. No matter Shepard's morality, something will go wrong if he chooses Control.

I understand the Synthesis complaints. It's my preferred ending in terms of outcome, but I hate the bogus mysticism and the forced transformation of every being in the galaxy.

Destroy is a mess for me. I very much want Shepard to live, but I loathe the idea of saving an entire domain of life at the expense of another. It seems very Renegade to me.

So really, Paragon Control is probably the most Paragon because you aren't killing or changing anyone. Yes, you change the Reapers, but I don't think people care about that. The big issue is what happens after choosing Control. A Paragon Shepard will probably be more respectful of people's freedom than a Renegade Shepard.

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

It doesn't.  It isn't.

Seems like some people want it to be for some reason.

Saves them the trouble of thinking for themselves, I guess. "Hey, that option is in the upper-right! I'll pick that! That makes me a GOOD person! PARAGON INTERRUPT! I'VE GOT THAT!... why am I kissing Cortez?"

Sort of like Action Mode.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:25 .

[David7204]

That is not only ridiculous, but foolish.

Having a story portray a theme (such as "this is good") means players must not want to think for themselves?

Laughable. All stories have themes, Deinon.

Modifié par David7204, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:25 .