195 réponses à ce sujet

[ElSuperGecko]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
It doesn't.  It isn't.

Seems like some people want it to be for some reason.

Saves them the trouble of thinking for themselves..."

Apologies in advance for the quote pyramid, but I couldn't agree with this link of thinking more.

The endings (pre-EC) were deliberately left as open to interpretation as possible.  Post-EC, some additional context and clarity was added, mainly for those who wanted answers and closure instead of questions and conjecture.

But the "colour coding" of the final choices is little more than a red herring.  Anderson is not renegade.  TIM is not paragon.  Neither are the choices.  Morality doesn't come into it - it's what you believe, infer and interpret about the endings that is important.  If you can justify and rationalize Shepard's decision based your experiences and understanding of the series (and not just a colour), then what's the problem?

[fchopin]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

If Destroy had been clearly conveyed as a Renegade choice

Destroy is Paragon not Renegade.

[SilJeff]

I think the color coding was to help those who want the endings to be shepard actually being indoctrinated interpret it that way. Otherwise, the choice TIM agreed with wouldn't be blue, and Anderson's preferred choice wouldn't be red.


As for me, I don't care what anyone else says (TIM and Anderson included), I think Paragon-Control is far more paragon than Destroy. Destroy involves killing an entire race. Control means only shepard's sacrifice.

That's in a nutshell the who difference between paragon and renegade. Renegade is "get job done no matter what, not caring about sacrifices made", which sounds just like destroy's "getting the job done at the expense of an entire race". Paragon is "get job done without killing unnecessary people" which sounds just like control's "get job done without sacrificing an entire race"

That's why for paragon playthroughs, I always go Control, and renegade ones I go Destroy. Then ignore refuse and synthesis entirely

Modifié par SilJeff, 11 décembre 2013 - 12:59 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
 You can even kill all of them.

You can't kill Oghren, Morrigan, or Leliana. 

You can kill (or at least stab) Morrigan in Witch Hunt (you can eject her from the party as soon as Lothering). You can kill Leliana in the "Sacred Ashes" quest if she's present when you defile the ashes, though her death was retconned in DA2 (which is hilarious if she was decapitated in the fight).

Careful. Gaider will pitch an absolute fit if he sees this. According to him, that was not a retcon. We just did not understand what really happened and just because we think she died, doesn't mean she did.

[KaiserShep]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Why can't Shepard just speak through the Reapers and explain what is happening? Maybe he could ask the galaxy what they think about the Reapers' presence?

In the end, Shepard would still be speaking through the booming voice of the very thing that was trying to kill everyone. Consider the source and what the galaxy experienced, and you have a good idea of what the general consensus would be. It would be pretty much unanimous that people want the reapers to leave, because they're massive walking skyscrapers that could, at any time, turn around and vaporize them all for who knows why.

So the Reapers would become basically the Mosura/Mothra of the Mass Effect universe, seperate from galactic society until needed to protect them.

Thing is, the monologue of Control does not really give me this impression, either for the Paragon or Renegade version. It makes it seem like the reapers will just perpetually be there, lording over the galaxy.

[DeinonSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm pretty sure uploading the code is always at the top of the wheel (which is hilarious, because when Shepard interrupts the VI's upload after initially permitting it, his dialogue (bottom of the wheel) says "Wrong answer. I was giving the Geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide"). 

I didn't get a line anything like that when I played that scene today. Unless Tali being dead has something to do with it? But I concur about wheel positions.

That line only happens with the Geth VI replacing Legion, and only if you choose "upload the code" followed by "stop the upload."

[Home run MF]

I like how some people just let Bioware tell them what's good or bad instead of thinking for themselves.

I mean you've played the games, you know how your Shepards actions and motives why is the color of a wheel so important?

[ruggly]

dreamgazer wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Why can't Shepard just speak through the Reapers and explain what is happening? Maybe he could ask the galaxy what they think about the Reapers' presence?

You expect this inquiry to go well? Remember what the Reapers, willingly or unwillingly controlled, did to the galaxy. 

That goes beyond mere moving beyond the differences created during human warfare. 

Pretty much.  Some may be more forgiving than others, but chances are having the reapers around, even if benevolent, will serve as a reminder as what they did to the galaxy.  Taking away friends and families, not an easy thing to forget.

[Clayless]

It's already the most Renegade of all the choices, but even then none of the choices are Renegade or Paragon.

[DeinonSlayer]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
 You can even kill all of them.

You can't kill Oghren, Morrigan, or Leliana. 

You can kill (or at least stab) Morrigan in Witch Hunt (you can eject her from the party as soon as Lothering). You can kill Leliana in the "Sacred Ashes" quest if she's present when you defile the ashes, though her death was retconned in DA2 (which is hilarious if she was decapitated in the fight).

Careful. Gaider will pitch an absolute fit if he sees this. According to him, that was not a retcon. We just did not understand what really happened and just because we think she died, doesn't mean she did.

Now this I've got to hear...

[AlanC9]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm pretty sure uploading the code is always at the top of the wheel (which is hilarious, because when Shepard interrupts the VI's upload after initially permitting it, his dialogue (bottom of the wheel) says "Wrong answer. I was giving the Geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide"). 

I didn't get a line anything like that when I played that scene today. Unless Tali being dead has something to do with it? But I concur about wheel positions.

That line only happens with the Geth VI replacing Legion, and only if you choose "upload the code" followed by "stop the upload."

I did that and did not get that line. Shepard's line was more like " I can't let the quarians be destroyed."

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:29 .

[AlanC9]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Careful. Gaider will pitch an absolute fit if he sees this. According to him, that was not a retcon. We just did not understand what really happened and just because we think she died, doesn't mean she did.

Now this I've got to hear...

Pop by the DA board. There was an active thread on the topic yesterday -- something about save imports.

[Sir DeLoria]

Will you people please stop talking about wich choises were Paragon or Renegade? Look, colours and positions on the dialogue wheel mean nothing. Destroy is neither Paragon nor Renegade, neither are any of the other endings. Same goes for the final choices on Tuchanka and Rannoch, siding with either faction doesn't grant you any morality or reputation points. The only Paragon option on Rannoch is peace, the only Renegade option is the other version of peace.

Modifié par Necanor, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[Sir DeLoria]

SilJeff wrote...
As for me, I don't care what anyone else says (TIM and Anderson included), I think Paragon-Control is far more paragon than Destroy. Destroy involves killing an entire race. Control means only shepard's sacrifice.

If the Geth have already been destroyed only EDI dies. I'd rather have one dead robot than a totalitarian police state.

[Clayless]

Necanor wrote...

SilJeff wrote...
As for me, I don't care what anyone else says (TIM and Anderson included), I think Paragon-Control is far more paragon than Destroy. Destroy involves killing an entire race. Control means only shepard's sacrifice.

If the Geth have already been destroyed only EDI dies. I'd rather have one dead robot than a totalitarian police state.

Killing the love of the life of someone who has saved your life countless times, destroying the infastructure and foundations of galactic civilisation that no one knows how to rebuild, and crippling the galaxy to an almost complete standstill.

Or

Sacrificing yourself to control the Reapers.

Yeah, it's a bit more than "one dead robot".

[DeinonSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm pretty sure uploading the code is always at the top of the wheel (which is hilarious, because when Shepard interrupts the VI's upload after initially permitting it, his dialogue (bottom of the wheel) says "Wrong answer. I was giving the Geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide"). 

I didn't get a line anything like that when I played that scene today. Unless Tali being dead has something to do with it? But I concur about wheel positions.

That line only happens with the Geth VI replacing Legion, and only if you choose "upload the code" followed by "stop the upload."

I did that and did not get that line. Shepard's line was more like " I can't let the quarians be destroyed."

Odd. Maybe there are more prerequisites. In any case it's in the game files.

[ElSuperGecko]

Necanor wrote...
If the Geth have already been destroyed only EDI dies. I'd rather have one dead robot than a totalitarian police state.

And that's without even mentioning the fact that for as long as the Reapers exist, the potential of the cycle starting all over again also exists...

 I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[DeinonSlayer]

Robosexual wrote...

Killing the love of the life of someone who has saved your life countless times, destroying the infastructure and foundations of galactic civilisation that no one knows how to rebuild, and crippling the galaxy to an almost complete standstill.

Or

Sacrificing yourself to control the Reapers.

Yeah, it's a bit more than "one dead robot".

I didn't exactly encourage EDI/Joker. Guy got Shepard killed once already. Besides, making such a huge decision for the galaxy on the basis of a single intrapersonal relationship is about as valid as doing so solely so Shepard can live.

Incidentally, the comm relays mass produced to facilitate FTL communication across the galaxy are just scaled-down mass relays. It's not like we can't figure out how to make the big ones; there was simply no impetus to do so before since they were already there.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 décembre 2013 - 04:11 .

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Necanor wrote...
If the Geth have already been destroyed only EDI dies. I'd rather have one dead robot than a totalitarian police state.

And that's without even mentioning the fact that for as long as the Reapers exist, the potential of the cycle starting all over again also exists...

Because the logic of doing the cycles the first time around was so compelling?

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
Because the logic of doing the cycles the first time around was so compelling?

*shrugs*

If organic/synthetic conflict truly IS inevitable, who's to say an "Eternal, immortal, infinite" AI won't eventually come around to the Catalyst's way of thinking?  Eternity's a long time - especially for a being that was once all too human.  Why take that risk?

[Hazegurl]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
 You can even kill all of them.

You can't kill Oghren, Morrigan, or Leliana. 

You can kill (or at least stab) Morrigan in Witch Hunt (you can eject her from the party as soon as Lothering). You can kill Leliana in the "Sacred Ashes" quest if she's present when you defile the ashes, though her death was retconned in DA2[/b] (which is hilarious if she was decapitated in the fight).

Careful. Gaider will pitch an absolute fit if he sees this. According to him, that was not a retcon. We just did not understand what really happened and just because we think[/i] she died, doesn't mean she did.

Gaider should run for president with the way he defends his screw up. "Define sex, please."

[Hazegurl]

Robosexual wrote...
Killing the love of the life of someone who has saved your life countless times, destroying the infastructure and foundations of galactic civilisation that no one knows how to rebuild, and crippling the galaxy to an almost complete standstill.

Or

Sacrificing yourself to control the Reapers.

Yeah, it's a bit more than "one dead robot".

Joker should find a real woman. I like EDI and I do hook them up cause Joker needs it at the time but the man has brittle bone disease and EDI has no vag.

Except they do know how to rebuild it and they do. So much for that standstill. So yeah, if a player kills off the Geth, it is just one dead robot.

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Because the logic of doing the cycles the first time around was so compelling?

*shrugs*

If organic/synthetic conflict truly IS inevitable, who's to say an "Eternal, immortal, infinite" AI won't eventually come around to the Catalyst's way of thinking?  Eternity's a long time - especially for a being that was once all too human.  Why take that risk?

If you really think that such conflict is inevitable you should be picking synthesis.

There's no way to eliminate risk. I could come up with a bunch of hypotheticals where the galaxy ends up needing the Reapers and Destroy is a disaster. And even if we're just talking about the risks of Control, I don't see why two differently-programmed intelligences would go wrong in the same way. Shouldn't they go wrong in different ways? There are plenty of other ways for the Sheplyst to go wrong.

But this is all masturbation anyway, since none of the bad hypotheticals actually happen.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 décembre 2013 - 04:45 .

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
If you really think that such conflict is inevitable you should be picking synthesis.

I don't, but that's beside the point.  Even if it were inevitable I believe the races of the galaxy should be free to find a solution of their own, with the lessons of history to draw from.

AlanC9 wrote...
There's no way to eliminate risk. I could come up with a bunch of hypotheticals where the galaxy ends up needing the Reapers and Destroy is a disaster.

There's a way to permanently and decisively eliminate the Reaper risk, however, and that involves destroying them completely.  The argument for the galaxy potentially needing the Reapers is a similar argument to that for preserving the remaining specimens of the smallpox virus; they might be useful in the future, they might be needed, but they're dangerous and deadly and simply having them around presents an incredible risk.

AlanC9 wrote...
And even if we're just talking about the risks of Control, I don't see why two differently-programmed intelligences would go wrong in the same way. Shouldn't they go wrong in different ways? There are plenty of other ways for the Sheplyst to go wrong...

Oh I agree entirely.  "if power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely..." the human mind is not designed to exist forever.  I wouldn't trust myself in that position, even without knowing what we know about the Reapers...

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 11 décembre 2013 - 04:58 .

[KaiserShep]

Robosexual wrote...

Killing the love of the life of someone who has saved your life countless times, destroying the infastructure and foundations of galactic civilisation that no one knows how to rebuild, and crippling the galaxy to an almost complete standstill.

Or

Sacrificing yourself to control the Reapers.

Yeah, it's a bit more than "one dead robot".

I'll grant the loss of EDI, but the epilogue disproves your second point. The galaxy is in no way seen to be crippled to an almost complete standstill. Even the Citadel, which is made of the same material as the relays, is seen being rebuilt. Heck it's also a mass relay. In the original ending this point would have been valid, but not anymore.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 décembre 2013 - 05:05 .