36 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyingSquirrel]

Just got through the Cerberus Coup attempt on my current playthrough, and one thing I noticed/remembered is that questions about why exactly Cerberus did this aren't limited to the players - both the turian councilor and Anderson ask what the purpose of the coup could be, and Shepard admits that (s)he doesn't know. So I don't think this is just bad "let's give Cerberus something evil to do" writing on Bioware's part.

On the other hand, I don't think the question is clearly answered at any point. The codex entry suggests that Udina hoped to use his newfound power to force a more immediate and aggressive defense of Earth. But it's not clear if Cerberus would share that goal since TIM doesn't want to fight the Reapers directly, and this seems like a pretty short-sighted plan on Udina's part. Somebody like Wrex or Victus would probably just tell Udina to go screw himself if he tried to order all their fleets to Earth. Is he planning to hold the entire non-human Citadel population hostage or something?

The best rationale I can come up with is that TIM already had some inkling of the Citadel being important to the plans for the Crucible and thought it would be important to have control of it, which might make sense if he's already indoctrinated at that point.

[KaiserShep]

Thing is, if the Illusive Man had hints in the data regarding the Citadel's significance in the Crucible's functionality, the best course of action would be to simply have an agent aboard the station to wait for the device's completion. If Cerberus were to successfully take over the station, the Alliance would simply withhold the Crucible and launch a full-on assault to take it back before they can use it anyway.

[essarr71]

Why would he need to get the info from the thessia beacon if he knew the Citadel was the missing piece?

They needed to kill Thane/establish Kai Lang/wrap up the VS. Thats why the coup went down.

[KaiserShep]

Knowing the Citadel may be key, or at least suspecting that it is based on incomplete data doesn't necessarily mean they know how it would work exactly.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 décembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 The info TIM and Shepard got from Mars was different. TIM said he found out about Thessia from "The archives, (...)"

I don't think TIM and Cerberus knew what was important about the Citadel, just that it was important, from the limited data they got from the archives. So I guess they decided they wanted control over it to further their plans, or block the Alliance's.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think Cerberus was just fully committing to the whole 'we're bad and we're everywhere' role.

[cap and gown]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I think Cerberus was just fully committing to the whole 'we're bad and we're everywhere' role.

Don't forget: it also establishes their bona fides as a "small, human, terrorist organization." <_<

Modifié par cap and gown, 11 décembre 2013 - 09:04 .

[Rotward]

If cerberus controlled the citadel they'd be able to move around in council space unhindered. Udina's just a sucker.

Modifié par Rotward, 11 décembre 2013 - 09:15 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

Rotward wrote...

If cerberus controlled the citadel they'd be able to move around in council space unhindered. Udina's just a sucker.

I guess what bothers me about that explanation is that while that's theoretically true, I have to think that practically it wouldn't hold up. The Citadel Council seems to derive its authority from the consent of the various species and their political leadership. Unless Cerberus imposed such an elaborate communications lockdown that nobody else even realized that there had *been* a coup - which would seem nearly impossible - most of the galaxy would probably just stop taking orders from the Citadel and organize their own governments-in-exile.

Maybe Cerberus could seize control of some ships docked at the Citadel and use them to travel incognito for a while. But I can't imagine Primarch Victus suddenly deciding to open turian space to Cerberus just because TIM is sitting in the turian councilor's former chair, for example. Non-human governments and civilians would either rebel or just try to work around them, and even most humans probably see Cerberus as traitors at worst and unreliable kooks at best.

[KaiserShep]

Cerberus' only viable option after taking the station would be to close the arms and hold the station hostage for whatever reason. Of course, TIM would not need to be there, since it's not until Kai Leng slips up and fails to kill or subdue Miranda before she slaps a tracking device leading Shepard to Anadius that he has to flee his outer space volcano lair.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 décembre 2013 - 12:17 .

[TheMyron]

If Cerberus was reserved for ME4, attacking the Citadel would make sense...

[Michotic]

I had always thought that TIM wanted to capture the Council to indoctrinate them. If TIM controlled the Council, he'd have a lot of power. As to whether or not this plan would actually work, I don't know (still seems kind of a stretch). Udina went along with it because he thought he'd have more power

[Massa FX]

Michotic wrote...

I had always thought that TIM wanted to capture the Council to indoctrinate them. If TIM controlled the Council, he'd have a lot of power. As to whether or not this plan would actually work, I don't know (still seems kind of a stretch). Udina went along with it because he thought he'd have more power

If TIM wanted to indoctrinate the council, he could have done it the easy way. Plop some reaper tech in the council chambers in camouflage and call it a day.  The keepers wouldn't have removed it. They'd know the purpose and I assume the AI child would have been satisfied to know his plan for galaxy extinction just one upped.  As for the length of time it takes to indoctrinate.... well. I don't see any of the council members having strong enough mind/willpower to resist. Easy conquests there. <they are dwerps!>  Maybe 2 weeks? ... or less.

A coup is the really hard way...

[Michotic]

Yea, I'm not saying it was a good plan. That was the only real justification I saw for it, as I didn't think TIM was aware the Citadel was the Catalyst.

[maaaad365]

I believe that TIM saw an opportunity and took it. Udina was the weak spot and TIM used him.
The Cathalist HAS a lot to do with it since the Reapers were controlling Cerberus the whole game. The Reapers wanted to take control of the Citadel through Cerberus, but TIM saw the indoctrination just as another business opportunity for his organization.
In other words , the "devil" ( the reapers ) wispered in TIM's ear that controlling the Citadel was a good idea. TIM didn't know what the Reapers were planning and went along with it. Remember that the Crucible was not a secret, only its location was a secret, so the Reapers were fully aware of the master plan.

[Michotic]

That plays into just how badly the Reapers blundered this invasion. If they knew what the Catalyst was (which they should since the Catalyst seemingly controls them), they should have taken the Citadel immediately. A combined Reaper attack would have secured quickly, and had the added bonus of eliminating much of the galaxy's leadership and gives them intel on most of the galaxy.

Shepard must have really ticked them off, but I digress...

Back to my thought, I had thought Cerberus was going to implant tech into the Council, similar to what they did with their troops to ensure control.

[maaaad365]

Michotic wrote...

That plays into just how badly the Reapers blundered this invasion. If they knew what the Catalyst was (which they should since the Catalyst seemingly controls them), they should have taken the Citadel immediately. A combined Reaper attack would have secured quickly, and had the added bonus of eliminating much of the galaxy's leadership and gives them intel on most of the galaxy.

Shepard must have really ticked them off, but I digress...

Back to my thought, I had thought Cerberus was going to implant tech into the Council, similar to what they did with their troops to ensure control.

I don't agree with that. The Reapers needed to take the Citadel from inside. A frontal attack wouldn't solve anything since the Citadel can close its arms. Destroying the Citaded is not an option for the Reapers , they needed to control it and that's why they used Cerberus and TIM ( remember the final scenes ) - the Reapers did take control of the Citadel at their second attempt.

[Michotic]

The Reapers built the Citadel. Odds are they can do it again.

In ME1, one Reaper aided by the Geth got through the Citadel before the arms closed.. A fleet of Reapers? No chance, especially if they made the Citadel their first target. Then they move the Citadel to another location, or just sit there and guard it while the various species scramble to figure out what to do.

The Reapers need the Citadel because it was the Relay that linked to their hangout in dark space. In ME3, they're already here, which means they can use any of the Mass Relays to get around. They don't 'need' the Citadel at that point (for the current cycle anyway).

[maaaad365]

Building another Citadel is a hard thing to do , even for the Reapers . If they all came directly to the Citadel to "attack" it , then the Council would close the Citadel's arms and the Reapers couldn't do a thing other than try to destroy it. We have to remember that there are tens of thousands of systems to conquer and only a few thousand Reapers, so they can't all camp aroung the Citadel for the whole war. The Reapers are not all-powerful and they can't strech their resources too much.

Those are my 2 credits on this matter.

[Michotic]

If I remember from ME1 and talking to Javik, when the Reapers took control of the Citadel, they were also able to control the Mass Relays. They prevented anyone but themselves from using it, trapping everyone where they were. If the Reapers did that, the war is over.

The Citadel would close its arms, I'm sure. They did that the first time, and Sovereign still got through.

[essarr71]

The tactics of this cycle are bizarre when compared to what we know of previous cycles. Control of the relay network is a big deal. Granted, this cycle has ways to at least communicate/coordinate without the network... Still, given the restrictions and dangers of long ftl flights, it puts serious stress on the war effort.

Saying they didnt need it doesnt sit well with me, considering the apparent ease in which they eventually take it and the fact that they make new Reapers with it. The Reapers might be winning but theyre taking loses. Each death is another cycles preserves lost forever. But hey, its not like they even shut off the relay network when they took it so... yeah. Guess Im missing something.

[cap and gown]

I find it interesting how everyone spends so much time and effort trying to makes sense of a senseless plot.

[Michotic]

It's the Internet, it's what we do.

[Slayer299]

Rotward wrote...

If cerberus controlled the citadel they'd be able to move around in council space unhindered. Udina's just a sucker.

Unhindered by what exactly? The CC wasn't exactly tracking Cerberus anywhere or looking to stop them outside of dealing with their own issues right then and there. Taking over the Citadel would have accomplished nothing unless TIM suddenly knew how to access the master controls to allow him to shut down the relay network at will or expected that kidnapping the CC members, who had no power whatsoever, would force the respective gov'ts to bow to him. 

But yeah, Udina was a sucker.

[ImaginaryMatter]

cap and gown wrote...

I find it interesting how everyone spends so much time and effort trying to makes sense of a senseless plot.

We're like Reapers, imposing Order onto Chaos.