211 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

It would take much much more than just augmentation for synthesis to work. Individuality is part of what drives conflict. In order to have peace that lasts forever, you must reduce some part of an individual's personality, or expunge it completely. Granted, this is more to "fix" the issues between organics and synthetics, but I suppose there's no point trying to delve into its mechanics, because there aren't any.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 décembre 2013 - 05:01 .

[AlanC9]

Who ever says there's going to be peace that lasts forever? There won't be an organic/synthetic problem because the distinction doesn't exist anymore, but that doesn't mean other factors won't cause wars the same way they always did.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 décembre 2013 - 05:37 .

[KaiserShep]

And that's another thing. How are organics and synthetics now indistinguishable from one another? Do the geth and EDI now exhibit the life processes apparent in organic life? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 décembre 2013 - 05:47 .

[wizardryforever]

KaiserShep wrote...

And that's another thing. How are organics and synthetics now indistinguishable from one another? Do the geth and EDI now exhibit the life processes apparent in organic life? 

They're not really indistinguishable from each other, just that they can now understand each other better than ever before.  Understanding is the biggest factor to stopping organic/synthetic conflict, directly countering ignorance, prejudice, and fear of the unknown.  Conflicts will still occur, but the differences between synthetic and organic will no longer be the cause of those conflicts.  And really, that's the only problem that synthesis was supposed to solve.  Any others that it solves (or even creates) are just side effects.

[KaiserShep]

And this is why the concept is so hokey and ridiculous. It's basically inoculation against misunderstanding. There's no words for how hare-brained that idea is. The destroy wave has its fair share of wild magic in its distinguishing between sapient and non sapient software and hardware, but the underlying principle isn't quite as problematic, since it doesn't deal with somehow altering everyone's behavior, which is far more abstract. When it comes down to it, we have to basically ignore anything and everything we know about biology, physics, etc., so it just comes down to accepting the concept strictly on its own. For myself, the line is drawn strictly at destroy and control when it comes to how much hokum I can tolerate.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 décembre 2013 - 06:15 .

[Display Name Owner]

I most definitely got some mass brainwashing vibe from Synthesis. As others have said, don't ask me how it works technically, but all that 'lasting peace' and 'true understanding' chatter gave me a real Brave New World feeling. I reckon part of every organic becoming part synthetic involves their emotions and sense of individuality being drastically reduced. And that final line EDI gives about moving towards "a future we cannot even imagine" instantly reminded me of Sovereign's speech. I don't know what this future entails, but I have no doubt it's something creepy.

As for what it does to Synthetics... Um ...I don't even know. Apparently it turns their wiring green. I guess the implication is that it allows them to 'feel' as well?

[Reorte]

wizardryforever wrote...

They're not really indistinguishable from each other, just that they can now understand each other better than ever before.  Understanding is the biggest factor to stopping organic/synthetic conflict, directly countering ignorance, prejudice, and fear of the unknown.  Conflicts will still occur, but the differences between synthetic and organic will no longer be the cause of those conflicts.  And really, that's the only problem that synthesis was supposed to solve.  Any others that it solves (or even creates) are just side effects.

Why would it solve that? We've plenty of wars with other people of exactly the same species. Very often it's against the ones we're the most similar to (and that isn't just down to geography) - when you've got more distant cultures there seems to be less opportunity to find common ground with little differences of opinions that can start a war, or at least the sort of war that isn't simply about pinching resources.

Plus this idea that what we need to do is make everyone and everything as alike as possible is a really, really disturbing idea, and would remain so even if it did lessen conflict.

[KaiserShep]

Basically, it's brainwashing. One group does not suddenly understand another so deeply that the potential for conflict is eradicated without some kind of forced alteration of their minds.

[DeinonSlayer]

KaiserShep wrote...

Basically, it's brainwashing. One group does not suddenly understand another so deeply that the potential for conflict is eradicated without some kind of forced alteration of their minds.

But... perfect communism with the flip of a switch! Why you not want?

[Eryri]

isnudo wrote...

I most definitely got some mass brainwashing vibe from Synthesis. As others have said, don't ask me how it works technically, but all that 'lasting peace' and 'true understanding' chatter gave me a real Brave New World feeling. I reckon part of every organic becoming part synthetic involves their emotions and sense of individuality being drastically reduced. And that final line EDI gives about moving towards "a future we cannot even imagine" instantly reminded me of Sovereign's speech. I don't know what this future entails, but I have no doubt it's something creepy.

As for what it does to Synthetics... Um ...I don't even know. Apparently it turns their wiring green. I guess the implication is that it allows them to 'feel' as well?

I was most bemused by that when I first saw the green ending. I was left thinking "So she's got circuits on top of her circuits... so she's what..? even more of a robot now?"

And the implication that she has been changed mentally is in some ways even more disturbing than the physical changes to the organics. People already have medical technology implanted and it doesn't change who they fundamentally are, but Edi sounds and acts like a completely different person in the green epilogue. The simpering way she hangs on Joker's arm, and then gushes about the wonders of synthesis like a Stepford Wife is positively creepy. Rewriting a person's mind, seems a bigger violation to me than modifying their body without their consent - though that is appaling enough.

[KaiserShep]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Basically, it's brainwashing. One group does not suddenly understand another so deeply that the potential for conflict is eradicated without some kind of forced alteration of their minds.

But... perfect communism with the flip of a switch! Why you not want?

I think I know what the next antagonist can be for ME4. Reanimated Lenin! 

[His Name was HYR!!]

Eryri wrote...

Rewriting a person's mind, seems a bigger violation to me than modifying their body without their consent - though that is appaling enough.

... which is a big reason why I reject that explanation of what's going on here.

Say what you will about the writers, but I doubt that they truly wanted to promote mass-mind-alteration. I can buy that they are sub-par at their jobs. I can't buy that they legitimately fantasize over a world where everyone is a mindless drone.

I mean, you can't use the same explanation in Blue, where people are untouched but getting along fine with the Reapers. Or, to use a more popular example, the end of Rannoch, where the quarians and geth are living together despite only a select few (Shepard, Tali) knowing that not all the geth are monsters. I mean, the krogan still hate the rachni for doing far less.

*edit* -- alternatively, if this was supposed to be some "trick" ending as the IT would have you believe, it fails for not clearly portraying it as negative (but very positively, in fact), leaving many people to take away a pro-brainwashing message.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 14 décembre 2013 - 05:45 .

[wizardryforever]

Reorte wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

They're not really indistinguishable from each other, just that they can now understand each other better than ever before.  Understanding is the biggest factor to stopping organic/synthetic conflict, directly countering ignorance, prejudice, and fear of the unknown.  Conflicts will still occur, but the differences between synthetic and organic will no longer be the cause of those conflicts.  And really, that's the only problem that synthesis was supposed to solve.  Any others that it solves (or even creates) are just side effects.

Why would it solve that? We've plenty of wars with other people of exactly the same species. Very often it's against the ones we're the most similar to (and that isn't just down to geography) - when you've got more distant cultures there seems to be less opportunity to find common ground with little differences of opinions that can start a war, or at least the sort of war that isn't simply about pinching resources.

Plus this idea that what we need to do is make everyone and everything as alike as possible is a really, really disturbing idea, and would remain so even if it did lessen conflict.

Because 99.999% of wars between synthetics and organics to date have started simply because of the differences between the two.  Those differences are still there (thus none of this "people are all the same!" bull), but people now have full understanding of the other side.  It won't prevent all conflict from occurring, but it will prevent conflict on those grounds.  And really, since the Catalyst was created to prevent the kind of conflict that results in genocide of one side or the other, it makes sense to target these motivations and minimize them.  Conflicts that involve territory, resources, or ideology will still happen, but these usually don't lead to the destruction of all organic life.

[DeinonSlayer]

@wizardryforever
We know of three synthetic/organic wars in the MEU (Zha'til, Morning War, Heretic invasion). Starbrat instigated two of them.

[wizardryforever]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@wizardryforever
We know of three synthetic/organic wars in the MEU (Zha'til, Morning War, Heretic invasion). Starbrat instigated two of them.

Actually no, only one of those (which is really just an extension of the first one).  The Zha'til were already at war with organics when the Reapers arrived.  The Morning War was caused by the Quarians jumping to conclusions based on fear.  The Heretic Invasion wasn't really a separate thing, more like a preliminary Reaper invasion.

[Eryri]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@wizardryforever
We know of three synthetic/organic wars in the MEU (Zha'til, Morning War, Heretic invasion). Starbrat instigated two of them.

And the only one he didn't instigate had more to do with old fashioned slavery and exploitation, and the Geth's perfectly understandable desire to be free of it. True, if the Quarians had been able to empathize with the Geth they might not have treated them so poorly, but that kind of "understanding" can't be achieved with technological short cuts or space magic. You need hard work and trust for things like that.

[DeinonSlayer]

wizardryforever wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@wizardryforever
We know of three synthetic/organic wars in the MEU (Zha'til, Morning War, Heretic invasion). Starbrat instigated two of them.

Actually no, only one of those (which is really just an extension of the first one).  The Zha'til were already at war with organics when the Reapers arrived.  The Morning War was caused by the Quarians jumping to conclusions based on fear.  The Heretic Invasion wasn't really a separate thing, more like a preliminary Reaper invasion.

Take Javik on the dreadnought mission. The Zha'til only turned on their masters and went homicidal after the Reapers got to them. The Morning War is, to date, the only synthetic-organic conflict we know of which wasn't kicked off by the AI tasked to prevent them.

[Eryri]

wizardryforever wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@wizardryforever
We know of three synthetic/organic wars in the MEU (Zha'til, Morning War, Heretic invasion). Starbrat instigated two of them.

Actually no, only one of those (which is really just an extension of the first one).  The Zha'til were already at war with organics when the Reapers arrived.  The Morning War was caused by the Quarians jumping to conclusions based on fear.  The Heretic Invasion wasn't really a separate thing, more like a preliminary Reaper invasion.

According to Javik, the Reapers corrupted the Zha Til simbiotes and instigated the war, if I recall correctly.

[Linkenski]

 The incoherenceness of ME Trilogy.

[KaiserShep]

It's already a noun when you have -ce at the end. No need for -ness

[Daemul]

The whole thing with the Metacon War and the Zha'til is confusing, because it seems like Javik is telling you two different stories. The first is about the Metacon War when he first arrives on the Normandy and tell's you that the Protheans encountered the dangers of Synthetic life very early on, and to stop machines surpassing them they decided to unite all organic life. He says it worked for a time and then says,

"The Metacon War, we were turning the tide. Until the Reapers arrived and we realized that machines had surpassed us long ago."



7:55 onwards

His line implies that they were at war with nameless machines before the Reapers arrived and when they did arrive the Protheans realised their plan had been futile because the machines had long surpassed them.

The comes the story about the Zha, who implanted themselves with synthetic symbiotes called Zha'til and when the Reapers arrived the Zha'til were subjugated by the Reapers who used them to seize their master's bodies and altered their genetic material at the deepest level to create synthetic monsters.They used them to turn the Zha into husks in simple terms, a similar way they do it with the nanomites.

Javik then goes on to say that the Protheans made a sun go supernova.....this is where I wtf'ed......because the Zha'til were too numerous. Now this is where it get's confusing, are the Zha'til the machines Javik was alluding to in his Metacon war story? Because if they are then it would mean that the Protheans went to war with the Zha/Zha'til BEFORE the Reapers arrived and then the Reapers came and and subjugated them.

I am trying to find Javik's dialogue about the Zha'til to see if he says if they are the same machine race the Protheans were fighting in the Metacon war or not, this would make things so much easier.

Modifié par Daemul, 15 décembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[Deathsaurer]

It isn't clear but one can certainly get the impression that they are the way the Zha'til keep getting brought up in comparison to the Geth.

I mean how do we reconcile this with what he says on the dreadnought? We've got two contradictory stories here...

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 15 décembre 2013 - 01:22 .

[Reorte]

wizardryforever wrote...

Because 99.999% of wars between synthetics and organics to date have started simply because of the differences between the two.  Those differences are still there (thus none of this "people are all the same!" bull), but people now have full understanding of the other side.  It won't prevent all conflict from occurring, but it will prevent conflict on those grounds.  And really, since the Catalyst was created to prevent the kind of conflict that results in genocide of one side or the other, it makes sense to target these motivations and minimize them.  Conflicts that involve territory, resources, or ideology will still happen, but these usually don't lead to the destruction of all organic life.

None of the conflicts we did have were leading to the destruction of all organic life.

As has been stated numerous times there's no real obvious difference between wars between organics and wars between organics and synthetics. I don't accept there's something so significantly different between them that makes really destructive wars inevitable, or at least more inevitable than we get anyway between ourselves. For me to accept that explanation you've first got to convince me that it's plausible. With reality pointing out examples goes a long way to do that but that doesn't work so well in fiction because it's easy to simply invent any example you might like. I also need convincing that the examples are plausible. There's been nothing offered to convince me that that's the case.

[Reorte]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Say what you will about the writers, but I doubt that they truly wanted to promote mass-mind-alteration. I can buy that they are sub-par at their jobs. I can't buy that they legitimately fantasize over a world where everyone is a mindless drone.

What they intended is irrelevent because we've got what they did instead of what they intended. That's why you've got to really carefully think these things through when you're creating them.

[Deathsaurer]

Reorte wrote...

None of the conflicts we did have were leading to the destruction of all organic life.

As has been stated numerous times there's no real obvious difference between wars between organics and wars between organics and synthetics. I don't accept there's something so significantly different between them that makes really destructive wars inevitable, or at least more inevitable than we get anyway between ourselves. For me to accept that explanation you've first got to convince me that it's plausible. With reality pointing out examples goes a long way to do that but that doesn't work so well in fiction because it's easy to simply invent any example you might like. I also need convincing that the examples are plausible. There's been nothing offered to convince me that that's the case.

So the Reapers didn't exist then?