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Geth after Destroy - is there clarity?


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#26
AlanC9

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KaiserShep wrote...

This is made even more apparent if you actually befriended EDI and went through all of her dialogue. If you did this, she ends up being one of the faces you see as Shepard makes the final decision, but this results in her not being among the faces you see that were lost in the war during Hackett's monologue.


That's an odd way to code it. Programmers usually try to save themselves work. Since EDI's always dead in Destroy, I'm kinda shocked she doesn't always show up in Hackett's monologue.

#27
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

This is made even more apparent if you actually befriended EDI and went through all of her dialogue. If you did this, she ends up being one of the faces you see as Shepard makes the final decision, but this results in her not being among the faces you see that were lost in the war during Hackett's monologue.


That's an odd way to code it. Programmers usually try to save themselves work. Since EDI's always dead in Destroy, I'm kinda shocked she doesn't always show up in Hackett's monologue.


We wouldn't want to mar these oh-so-artistic endings by drawing attention to the potential negative repercussions forced upon our choices, now, would we? Image IPB

Modifié par iakus, 12 décembre 2013 - 03:45 .


#28
almightydavidbc27

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durasteel wrote...all of the below things. Good post. And that doesn't even scrape the logic fails and plot holes. Below is already bad enough.

It is really striking me all over again just how rancid the ending is, and how the EC does nothing whatsoever to improve it.

EDI is a squad member, she has a story that spans all three games, she is not some random NPC to just kill off camera without comment. That is seriously crap writing. There is no scene of Joker's lamentation, nothing. She's not killed so much as... dismissed.

Same thing with the Geth. Geth are iconic in Mass Effect, with a deep and (I thought) rewarding story arc. If Shepard achieved peace between Geth and Quarians, that would be a lasting legacy, but the Geth, too, are just... dismissed. We don't see platforms deactivating, we don't see code unraveling in the Geth matrix, we just simply don't see any more Geth. Like they never mattered.

When other characters died it was moving, personal, and powerful. Legion's "Does this unit have a soul," Tali's "I'm sorry," Thane's dying prayer for redemption, not for himself but for Shepard. Mordin's redemption, humming Gilbert & Sullivan. These were scenes of significance, these were events in the game narrative.



Leaving a squad member and an entire nascent race of sentients to be "presumed dead" does not meet the standards of BioWare writing. I guess this is why "artistic integrity" has become a euphemism and a meme. The ending is devoid of both art and integrity.

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but the only reason I linger around here on the Mass Effect forums is because I am waiting for a sign, waiting for something to make me think that ME4 will be worth caring about. Of course, the problem is that I am constantly reminded of just how incredibly badly the Mass Effect universe is broken, and how tenuous the hope is that the "artistic integrity" crew will be willing to fix it.

After all, putting the galaxy back together again might be interpreted by some as an admission that it was stupid to break it in the first place.



#29
ImaginaryMatter

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I certainly find the endings abrupt. Over the course of the series the AI have been portrayed to be the most downtrodden species in the galaxy, constantly abused or dismissed by Organic life when all they really want to do is help; almost to the point where it becomes annoying or to the point where it is annoying. That gets completely reversed at the ending when the source of conflict is apparently the nice Synthetics going past the tech singularity which will inevitably result in them betraying everybody.

That's why I ultimately end up choosing Refusal. The only AI who seemingly fit the Catalyst's description are the Reapers themselves.

#30
mcsupersport

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lol, I said f- Bioware and dl'd the mass effect happy ending mod...you get destroy without the bad effects to the geth and edi...which in Edi's case I think is wrong... she is reaper tech driven,and thus should die. But How can you explain away Geth dying, software being wiped out by an energy wave and NOT have every bit of software on all systems wiped. Can an energy wave really tell the difference between a virtual calculator and a Geth program?? It is all 1s and 0s..and the wave isn't an intelligence to go through and make decisions. I could see it killing or destroying everything with true reaper tech Hardware, but not the software end..otherwise it just breaks the premise of what is happening. Bioware f-d up bigtime..and then still will not admit it.

#31
sH0tgUn jUliA

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The Geth operating system was upgraded. It's like your PC's BIOS being upgraded from Version 3.0.1 to Version 8.0.1 (reaper code upgrade). If something came along and flashed your PC's BIOS (destroy wave) it would become a brick. That's what happened to the Geth. The process the red wave used was space magic.

With EDI, and everything, it sent out little tendrils of energy that looked for energy signatures emanating from inanimate components that said "genuine REAPER parts TM" and fried them. The wave needed to make sure it destroyed all reapers, and that included all reaper parts.

Now it damaged synthetics and other technology as well as collateral damage just for reasons.

#32
Steelcan

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EDI is dead, the geth are not shown to be alive like they are in other endings.


And not one tear was shed

#33
Reorte

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Geth operating system was upgraded. It's like your PC's BIOS being upgraded from Version 3.0.1 to Version 8.0.1 (reaper code upgrade). If something came along and flashed your PC's BIOS (destroy wave) it would become a brick. That's what happened to the Geth. The process the red wave used was space magic.

For that to work the Destroy beam would somehow have to work by analysing the code on every single piece of alien hardware and delete if appropriate. That's nearly as ridiculous as Synthesis.

With EDI, and everything, it sent out little tendrils of energy that looked for energy signatures emanating from inanimate components that said "genuine REAPER parts TM" and fried them. The wave needed to make sure it destroyed all reapers, and that included all reaper parts.

Now it damaged synthetics and other technology as well as collateral damage just for reasons.

Something about various parts of Reaper hardware being able to be affected by a beam is slightly more plausible, so EDI dead makes a little more sense. Not a great deal though (saying "Reaper parts" is about as convincing as "German parts").

However EDI is definitely supposed to be gone (without affecting the Normandy too badly somehow) and the implication is that the geth are too, and "making sense" seems to be something viewed with disdain by certain writers, only there to happen if it's not too much effort and easily ignored if it is.

Modifié par Reorte, 12 décembre 2013 - 07:12 .


#34
AlexMBrennan

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I thought the red wave wiped out all technology, although most of it was apparently easily repairable (because ships don't need shields to protect them from micro meteoroids, or life support for the crew to not suffocate, or engines to avoid collisions, etc).

#35
Malanek

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IMO they were destroyed. But they are machines and could easily be rebuilt.

#36
KaiserShep

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AlanC9 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

This is made even more apparent if you actually befriended EDI and went through all of her dialogue. If you did this, she ends up being one of the faces you see as Shepard makes the final decision, but this results in her not being among the faces you see that were lost in the war during Hackett's monologue.


That's an odd way to code it. Programmers usually try to save themselves work. Since EDI's always dead in Destroy, I'm kinda shocked she doesn't always show up in Hackett's monologue.


If I had to guess, I would say that this is to avoid redundancy. There's only one of each memory of certain characters, so basically it would show the same exact image twice, which would probably look a little awkward. So in my main playthrough, it shows Anderson, EDI and Liara as Shepard fires at the power conduit, and Thane, Legion and Mordin in Hackett's monologue. I was curious as to why Anderson shows up among the first three, since the majority of the game is spent away from him, but I think the reputation points stack up with each QEC chat, especially the ones where contacting him is optional.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 décembre 2013 - 07:23 .


#37
Reorte

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

I thought the red wave wiped out all technology, although most of it was apparently easily repairable (because ships don't need shields to protect them from micro meteoroids, or life support for the crew to not suffocate, or engines to avoid collisions, etc).

"All technology" is too vague and silly to take seriously. Where does "technology" stop? Mass effect drive? Electronics? Steam engine? Printing press? Wheel?

#38
RiptideX1090

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durasteel wrote...

It is really striking me all over again just how rancid the ending is, and how the EC does nothing whatsoever to improve it.

EDI is a squad member, she has a story that spans all three games, she is not some random NPC to just kill off camera without comment. That is seriously crap writing. There is no scene of Joker's lamentation, nothing. She's not killed so much as... dismissed.

Same thing with the Geth. Geth are iconic in Mass Effect, with a deep and (I thought) rewarding story arc. If Shepard achieved peace between Geth and Quarians, that would be a lasting legacy, but the Geth, too, are just... dismissed. We don't see platforms deactivating, we don't see code unraveling in the Geth matrix, we just simply don't see any more Geth. Like they never mattered.

When other characters died it was moving, personal, and powerful. Legion's "Does this unit have a soul," Tali's "I'm sorry," Thane's dying prayer for redemption, not for himself but for Shepard. Mordin's redemption, humming Gilbert & Sullivan. These were scenes of significance, these were events in the game narrative.

Leaving a squad member and an entire nascent race of sentients to be "presumed dead" does not meet the standards of BioWare writing. I guess this is why "artistic integrity" has become a euphemism and a meme. The ending is devoid of both art and integrity.

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but the only reason I linger around here on the Mass Effect forums is because I am waiting for a sign, waiting for something to make me think that ME4 will be worth caring about. Of course, the problem is that I am constantly reminded of just how incredibly badly the Mass Effect universe is broken, and how tenuous the hope is that the "artistic integrity" crew will be willing to fix it.

After all, putting the galaxy back together again might be interpreted by some as an admission that it was stupid to break it in the first place.


Durasteel, welcome to the past two years of BSN. Hard to believe it's been that long... but it's been a right pain for just about everyone. The endings, no matter how you slice it, are just plain frustrating and have been the biggest source of contention on a forum already known for it's... rather lively and sometimes even venomous debating...

#39
Reorte

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Malanek999 wrote...

IMO they were destroyed. But they are machines and could easily be rebuilt.

Would that be any different from wiping out the whole of human civilisation then recreating us from some remaining DNA samples? Even if you've got documentary evidence the new humans could see of what was before you wouldn't get the same civilisation.

#40
Iakus

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mcsupersport wrote...

lol, I said f- Bioware and dl'd the mass effect happy ending mod...you get destroy without the bad effects to the geth and edi...which in Edi's case I think is wrong... she is reaper tech driven,and thus should die. But How can you explain away Geth dying, software being wiped out by an energy wave and NOT have every bit of software on all systems wiped. Can an energy wave really tell the difference between a virtual calculator and a Geth program?? It is all 1s and 0s..and the wave isn't an intelligence to go through and make decisions. I could see it killing or destroying everything with true reaper tech Hardware, but not the software end..otherwise it just breaks the premise of what is happening. Bioware f-d up bigtime..and then still will not admit it.



In addition to all the biotics, cyborgs, and transhumans/transsalarians/whatever out there.  You know, cybornetic beings like what the Reapers are.

But nope, it only attacks fully synthetic organisms.  And the Reapers.

And maybe Shepard Image IPB

#41
RiptideX1090

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Reorte wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

IMO they were destroyed. But they are machines and could easily be rebuilt.

Would that be any different from wiping out the whole of human civilisation then recreating us from some remaining DNA samples? Even if you've got documentary evidence the new humans could see of what was before you wouldn't get the same civilisation.


It's frustrating because we don't know what happens. There isn't any real resolution. Did the Geth get a hard reset? Are they deleted? Is every Hub and Platform obliterated due to them being targeted for having Reaper code? If they are just powered down and need a reboot, is the political climate going to allow for that in a galaxy that just got veritably curb stomped by AI gone insane?

Guess we have to wait for the next game to find out. Assuming it isn't going to be a prequel, or take place so far down the line that it doesn't even matter. Which really only adds to the nihlism of it all, if so.

Again, frustrating.

Modifié par RiptideX1090, 12 décembre 2013 - 07:26 .


#42
Malanek

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Reorte wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

IMO they were destroyed. But they are machines and could easily be rebuilt.

Would that be any different from wiping out the whole of human civilisation then recreating us from some remaining DNA samples? Even if you've got documentary evidence the new humans could see of what was before you wouldn't get the same civilisation.

Its an interesting philosophical question. What if their memories could be read from their remnants and reinstated. Would that make a difference? Even in the case of an extinct organic species, restoring them from a cataclysmic event involving their sacrifice would still have value.

However I wasn't even approaching it from that point of view. I just think it would be interesting from a story point of view if the Quarians wanted to rebuild the Geth but the council races were less forthcoming. There would still be massive distrust of AI and I think you could get some interesting subplots out of it.

#43
durasteel

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EDI lives in the Normandy's core, which is hardened to resist EMP attacks and general electromagnetic shenanigans. While her fembot mobile platform might be damaged or disabled, her personality and such should be safe and sound in the Normandy's innards.

It isn't, though.

See, this is space magic. If you try to understand it, it will only make your brain hurt. It's stupid and nonsensical, and it has effects because it is written that it does.

What we experienced is a writer's cop-out. I'm pretty sure that, in a complete absence of inspiration, Mac started with two choices: kill the reapers; or join the reapers. A brief struggle with the nonsensical nature of a "join the reapers" plot led to the idea of the Catalyst and an opportunity to replace it as the AI reaper god. Still, that idea is pretty dumb and most people would, as a no-brainer, just go with "kill the reapers" instead. That raised the necessity of attaching a cost to what became the "destroy" option. Incorporating the Catalyst idea from "control" suggested casting everything in a quick and dirty AI versus organic theme, so the obvious cost for destroy would be all Shepard's AI friends. It was then decided to add a third "best" option for reaching a certain threshold of galactic readiness, and so--in the absence of any better ideas--it was decided that "synthesis" should make all AI and organic life equal thereby resolving the thrown-together AI/Organic conflict theme.

The "Last Days" iOS app gives some behind-the-scenes perspective of the development, and if you were paying attention to the Old Republic development time table you can pretty clearly see what probably happened. SWTOR needed a few more months of development, so the bean-counters switched the release windows because they needed a product to release in the Spring of 2012 when they had been planning to unleash SWTOR. That basically took 6 to 9 months of development time away from Mass Effect 3, and put Casey in the awkward position of scheduling studio time for the voice actors before there was even a draft of the script.

Mac was then (as is confirmed in the Last Days app) writing the ending with the actors already in the studio waiting for their pages to read from. Everyone had planned on having a few more months to iron everything out and generate a quality product, but the rug was pulled out from under them.

Then Dr. Ray Muzyka, who was trying to fit into the EA corporate structure, steps in to handle the PR disaster that began to built the moment players reached the end of the game. He had to make a call between throwing someone under the bus and having a do-over, or sticking by his people and put his own credibility through the meat grinder with the whole "artistic integrity" thing. We know which way it went.

It's sad. Often, when a movie is butchered by a studio in the editing room, the creative forces behind the film can arrange for a "Director's Cut" to restore some real artistic integrity to the work. In this case, I really do wish that it had somehow been possible to give Casey the freedom to produce a Director's Cut of ME3, with a free DLC that actually fixed the ending, perhaps using the "indoctrination theory" or perhaps with something totally different and unexpected. What makes the situation sad is that I know that, given the chance, the Mass Effect development team could have made something great.

That's the only reason I'm still hanging around here waiting for ME4 info. I'm hoping that, having been knocked down, Casey Hudson manages to produce a magnum opus and redeem himself, Mac, and the Mass Effect franchise.

'Cause if he doesn't, it's done.

No pressure.

Modifié par durasteel, 12 décembre 2013 - 07:31 .


#44
KaiserShep

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durasteel, there's no escape from magic. Basically, Sam and Dean Winchester would have to litter the AI core with anti-Crucible sigils before EDI could be saved from its effects.

#45
RiptideX1090

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Malanek999 wrote...
Its an interesting philosophical question. What if their memories could be read from their remnants and reinstated. Would that make a difference? Even in the case of an extinct organic species, restoring them from a cataclysmic event involving their sacrifice would still have value.

However I wasn't even approaching it from that point of view. I just think it would be interesting from a story point of view if the Quarians wanted to rebuild the Geth but the council races were less forthcoming. There would still be massive distrust of AI and I think you could get some interesting subplots out of it.


Indeed.

Too bad it's a thread we're never liable to see. Which is the worst part of these endings, really. They're so vastly different and they occur at the end of the trilogy, that it's impossible to see their effects in any appreciable way. It's not even 'confirmed' that the geth are even all destroyed... and it's not something they can follow up in a sequel, because they have to account for all the endings.

#46
Malanek

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RiptideX1090 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Its an interesting philosophical question. What if their memories could be read from their remnants and reinstated. Would that make a difference? Even in the case of an extinct organic species, restoring them from a cataclysmic event involving their sacrifice would still have value.

However I wasn't even approaching it from that point of view. I just think it would be interesting from a story point of view if the Quarians wanted to rebuild the Geth but the council races were less forthcoming. There would still be massive distrust of AI and I think you could get some interesting subplots out of it.


Indeed.

Too bad it's a thread we're never liable to see. Which is the worst part of these endings, really. They're so vastly different and they occur at the end of the trilogy, that it's impossible to see their effects in any appreciable way. It's not even 'confirmed' that the geth are even all destroyed... and it's not something they can follow up in a sequel, because they have to account for all the endings.

Well this isn't really the thread for it but I don't believe they have, or should even try, to account for all the endings in the event of a sequel.They are too disparate and any attempt to do so will lesson all of them. Pick the most interesting and best suited one and leave the rest to the imagination.

#47
RiptideX1090

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durasteel wrote...

That's the only reason I'm still hanging around here waiting for ME4 info. I'm hoping that, having been knocked down, Casey Hudson manages to produce a magnum opus and redeem himself, Mac, and the Mass Effect franchise.

'Cause if he doesn't, it's done.

No pressure.


I like you. You did your research and keep it all in perspective from the point of view of the developers. That's nice to see in a place that too often spits emotional venom for the sake of it.

We're all waiting to see if they can pull themselves out of this and continue the series in a way that's meaningful and respectful to the people that have given it so much love. I don't think anyone here really wants to see them fail at that.

#48
Derpy

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I just don't pay attention to the lame endings they gave us. No matter what we try and understand, they still made the endings suck. The best thing to do is just not worry about them and focus the discussion towards things we can prove.

#49
RiptideX1090

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Malanek999 wrote...
Well this isn't really the thread for it but I don't believe they have, or should even try, to account for all the endings in the event of a sequel.They are too disparate and any attempt to do so will lesson all of them. Pick the most interesting and best suited one and leave the rest to the imagination.


Problem with that is picking the right one. You can make a case for all of them, I guess.

I only see it going one of two ways, honestly, and bear in mind this is just my opinion. But if you ask me, they're either going going to have to give you the option of choosing an ending at the start of the next game, like how you would pick Sole Survivor, Ruthless or War Hero in the original trilogy, and there would be subtle differences throughout as a result. Or they're going to do what Dues Ex did and basically say all the endings kinda sorta happened. Reapers? Either destroyed or left back for dark space. Geth? Uploaded to Dyson sphere or rebooted and uploaded to dyson sphere, quarians or quarian survivors resettle rannoch. Genophage cured, or Krogan work out agression on own and get cure later.

Honestly, seeing what they did with Revan and the Exile in SWTOR, I could see them railroading things like that. The sad fact is they kind of have to, now, because as you say, all the endings are so wildly divergent. Hell, who knows? Maybe they WILL pick one ending and stick with it.

God, I do not want to be on the forums the day THAT happens.

#50
RiptideX1090

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Nate_Assassin wrote...

I just don't pay attention to the lame endings they gave us. No matter what we try and understand, they still made the endings suck. The best thing to do is just not worry about them and focus the discussion towards things we can prove.


While waiting for ME4.

Female turian love interest, Bioware, make it happen!

Ahem, sorry, back to the topic at hand! :whistle: