434 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

^

You are assuming a story can only have one antagonist. Which is like saying a story can oly have one protagonist.

It's just not true.

[Hellion Rex]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

You are assuming a story can only have one antagonist. Which is like saying a story can oly have one protagonist.

It's just not true.

ME3 kinda had two.

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

You are assuming a story can only have one antagonist. Which is like saying a story can oly have one protagonist.

It's just not true.

ME3 kinda had two.

Antagonist-wise? Having a humanized villian and an overarching vilian is pretty common.

Then, you can have a wide variety of factions related to a story like Witcher 2.

Spoilers: http://wishroom.tumb...part-1-factions

Modifié par HiroVoid, 16 décembre 2013 - 07:23 .

[leaguer of one]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

You are assuming a story can only have one antagonist. Which is like saying a story can oly have one protagonist.

It's just not true.

When did I say it only needs one?

I'm just saying what the Jedi council actions does not define them as the antagonist.

Based on the defintion of the word...
http://www.thefreedi....com/antagonist
1. One who opposes and contends against another; an adversary.
2. The principal character in opposition to the protagonist or hero of a narrative or drama

....How does the jedi council do that? The gave him the mc the misssion, the ship, and the freedom to what he/she need to do how eer they see fit. And any form of manipulation they do is just so they and the galexy can mutually benifit from the mc succes,which the mc has the freedom to disdane. Added, this manipulation does not appose the main characters progress, directly or indirctly. None of their actions do.

In the very understanding and defintion of what an antagonist is, the jedi council is not in any way. That does not mean there actions aren't wrong. Being the antagonist is no about morals. It's about contest but the Jedi council does not even contest the mc directly or indirectly.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 décembre 2013 - 07:31 .

[leaguer of one]

x

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 décembre 2013 - 07:29 .

[Vicious]

It would be smart to have two. Skyrim fans STILL debate Ulfric Stormcloak vs The Empire, while neither was the actual villain of the game.

[Blessed Silence]

I enjoyed Saren in ME. I didn't think he was 'dehumanized' in any way, even up to battling him. He had a reason for what he did.

Meredith on the other hand, I found her battle at the end to be WTF worthy. Really. I remember staring at saying it out loud. Even the battle itself was lulz worthy.

I killed Loghain because fighting him stopped what he was doing. Meredith I felt I was just using her as a stepping stone.

[leaguer of one]

Blessed Silence wrote...

I enjoyed Saren in ME. I didn't think he was 'dehumanized' in any way, even up to battling him. He had a reason for what he did.

Meredith on the other hand, I found her battle at the end to be WTF worthy. Really. I remember staring at saying it out loud. Even the battle itself was lulz worthy.

I killed Loghain because fighting him stopped what he was doing. Meredith I felt I was just using her as a stepping stone.

Funny. I found them to be both stepping stones. Loghain was not doing anything evil, he was just in the way. Meredith on the other hand I was not surpires she went crazy.

[Vicious]

Meredith was just like Mellisan from Throne of Bhaal. (they both wore a hood for no reason too!) You could tell she was going to be a villain from the get go,but had to play nice up until the moment where she started raving like a lunatic.

She was one of Bioware's worst villains. Unsurprisingly so was Meredith - she was not two dimensional. They tried, barely, by giving her some backstory of her family turning into abominations, but it may as well have been throwaday dialogue because it had nothing to do with her turning evil - it was all the idol's fault.

[leaguer of one]

Vicious wrote...

Meredith was just like Mellisan from Throne of Bhaal. (they both wore a hood for no reason too!) You could tell she was going to be a villain from the get go,but had to play nice up until the moment where she started raving like a lunatic.

She was one of Bioware's worst villains. Unsurprisingly so was Meredith - she was not two dimensional. They tried, barely, by giving her some backstory of her family turning into abominations, but it may as well have been throwaday dialogue because it had nothing to do with her turning evil - it was all the idol's fault.

I would not say it's just the idols fault. Remeber she was planning to take down the circle way before she got the idol. That was the reason she got it in the first place. It just made her form bad to worst. Added, there really was an issue of blood mages in the city, she just looked into the wrong place and the one templar that understood were it was was ignored cause Hawke to lose his mother. And the circle head was helping to hide the blood mage problem.

The cause of everything was not Meredith, Orseno, or the Idol alone. It's the fact that both the templers and Mages were no working togehter andantagonistict to one another. The idol did not cause the fire, it only poured oil on it.

[The Hierophant]

leaguer of one, can you post a link that indicates that Meredith was intent on taking down the CoM, since her refusal to ok Alrik's Tranquil Solution seems to be contradictory before she purchased the idol before the start of Act 2?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 16 décembre 2013 - 09:07 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

leaguer of one wrote...

When did I say it only needs one?

I'm just saying what the Jedi council actions does not define them as the antagonist.

Based on the defintion of the word...
http://www.thefreedi....com/antagonist
1. One who opposes and contends against another; an adversary.
2. The principal character in opposition to the protagonist or hero of a narrative or drama

....How does the jedi council do that? The gave him the mc the misssion, the ship, and the freedom to what he/she need to do how eer they see fit. And any form of manipulation they do is just so they and the galexy can mutually benifit from the mc succes,which the mc has the freedom to disdane. Added, this manipulation does not appose the main characters progress, directly or indirctly. None of their actions do.

In the very understanding and defintion of what an antagonist is, the jedi council is not in any way. That does not mean there actions aren't wrong. Being the antagonist is no about morals. It's about contest but the Jedi council does not even contest the mc directly or indirectly.

You're presupposing your conclusion, however, by defining the narrative.  What if we define it differently?  Let's say the narrative of KotOR is a personal rediscovery of identity.  In that case, the Jedi are actually the primary antagonist - they're the only people working to prevent that from happening.

[leaguer of one]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

When did I say it only needs one?

I'm just saying what the Jedi council actions does not define them as the antagonist.

Based on the defintion of the word...
http://www.thefreedi....com/antagonist
1. One who opposes and contends against another; an adversary.
2. The principal character in opposition to the protagonist or hero of a narrative or drama

....How does the jedi council do that? The gave him the mc the misssion, the ship, and the freedom to what he/she need to do how eer they see fit. And any form of manipulation they do is just so they and the galexy can mutually benifit from the mc succes,which the mc has the freedom to disdane. Added, this manipulation does not appose the main characters progress, directly or indirctly. None of their actions do.

In the very understanding and defintion of what an antagonist is, the jedi council is not in any way. That does not mean there actions aren't wrong. Being the antagonist is no about morals. It's about contest but the Jedi council does not even contest the mc directly or indirectly.

You're presupposing your conclusion, however, by defining the narrative.  What if we define it differently?  Let's say the narrative of KotOR is a personal rediscovery of identity.  In that case, the Jedi are actually the primary antagonist - they're the only people working to prevent that from happening.

Even under that term it's not the case being that the Jedi order does nothing to stop it. They try to manipulate you to make sure it does not happen but they do nothing to really stop it from happening. If suddenly to start acting like a sith, ther are no jedi that try to capure youor try to rebrain wash you nor is there anyone for the jedi that tries to stop you progressto be Revan outside of the 2 Jedi who are with you and only that happens when it's too late. Really, how do the jedi even try to stop REVANS REDISCOVERY?

[leaguer of one]

The Hierophant wrote...

leaguer of one, can you post a link that indicates that Meredith was intent on taking down the CoM, since her refusal to ok Alrik's Tranquil Solution seems to be contradictory before she purchased the idol before the start of Act 2?

Why do you even think she got the red lyrium in the first place?  She tell you she was planning it for year the very moment she pulls out her red lyrium sword.

Also, Alrik's Trenquil solution was a perposal to be done to all mages in the circle system. That was never her goal. Her focus was to control the curruption in the kirkwall circle, not to do so on a global scale. She's only after the blood mages at the start when she was sane.

[Medhia Nox]

The problem is - when it's done to someone's disliking - they claim that the bad guy was always black and white.

Or... maybe you can just tell right from wrong - and not being able to do so, is exactly why we have "villains" in the first place.

[leaguer of one]

x

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 décembre 2013 - 10:56 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

It depends really. Having a villain that you can relate and sympathize with is all well and good but having it all the time is just lame. We already had that with Loghain, albeit we didn't find out why he did what he did in the actual game itself. So having a crazy maniacal villain or one that is just evil for the hell of it wouldn't bother me. Though it has to be done right of course.

[The Six Path of Pain]

DinoSteve wrote...

Dragon Age needs one of these
[smilie]http://i44.tinypic.com/261kvmo.jpg[/smilie]

Oh Hell Yeah!

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 17 décembre 2013 - 02:03 .

[Augustei]

leaguer of one wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Meredith was just like Mellisan from Throne of Bhaal. (they both wore a hood for no reason too!) You could tell she was going to be a villain from the get go,but had to play nice up until the moment where she started raving like a lunatic.

She was one of Bioware's worst villains. Unsurprisingly so was Meredith - she was not two dimensional. They tried, barely, by giving her some backstory of her family turning into abominations, but it may as well have been throwaday dialogue because it had nothing to do with her turning evil - it was all the idol's fault.

I would not say it's just the idols fault. Remeber she was planning to take down the circle way before she got the idol. That was the reason she got it in the first place. It just made her form bad to worst. Added, there really was an issue of blood mages in the city, she just looked into the wrong place and the one templar that understood were it was was ignored cause Hawke to lose his mother. And the circle head was helping to hide the blood mage problem.

The cause of everything was not Meredith, Orseno, or the Idol alone. It's the fact that both the templers and Mages were no working togehter andantagonistict to one another. The idol did not cause the fire, it only poured oil on it.

Then why didn't she sent for the right of annulment until Act 3 after she got the lyrium sword? and she never states anything about buying the red lyrium to take down the circle? Your drawing false conclusions based on no evidence at all. Theres nothing to indicate she planned to take down the circle before act 3

[The Hierophant]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

leaguer of one, can you post a link that indicates that Meredith was intent on taking down the CoM, since her refusal to ok Alrik's Tranquil Solution seems to be contradictory before she purchased the idol before the start of Act 2?

Why do you even think she got the red lyrium in the first place?  She tell you she was planning it for year the very moment she pulls out her red lyrium sword.

iirc outside of speculation Meredith didn't give a reason as to why she chose to purchase the idol. Her intent on forging it into a sword afterwards is another matter.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

I would like an antagonist we create through our actions in dismantling their web of deceit in thedas. Basically, take a group of close friends and comrades, and have them orchestrating a lot of bad things in thedas to bring it down. In comes our protagonist to save the day and stop them by defeating them one by one. Now, when he defeat one, and most likely have to kill them, the other villains don't just scoff and laugh and declare how weak he was and how they're better off now and blah, blah, blah.

Have it affect them different, some are cold and apathetic to it, taking it as an acceptable loss. Others take a sadistic and psychotic enjoyment out of the whole spectacle, much to the others horror or anger. Others are completely grief stricken, going into a bit of depression and resentment towards the protagonist and their group. And then there are the ones who feel complete rage and anger about the loss, you see the pain of them loosing a good friend and comrade has on them, and it strengthens their resolve to kill the protagonists for revenge.

That hatred ultimately ends up becoming their undoing as they focus more on getting revenge then completing their true objective, whatever it was. It can also serve another function of giving a narrative for the players. Have our protagonist go through a loss of one of their comrades and see how players deal with it. Do they do the same thing, thus showing that we're all the same in the end? Or do they move on and not let it consume them, thus showing the folly of letting revenge and grief take over your life? Maybe neither or something in between?

Pretty much do what very few other stories have done, and tell the antagonists story as if you were writing them as the heros of their own story, so the reactions can be much more human and much more powerful then mustache twirling every time.

[werewoof]

i'm torn because i agree with this, why it isnt the best of narrative devices and and all, but at the same time i actually really liked the bit with meredith if only because i thought the battle with her was cool and i loved the voice acting for her red lyrium breakdown. i do agree that it wasn't great writing but damn if i didn't love those cutscenes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I honestly don't recall.
Probably because I wasn't doing Cerberus-related side missions in ME1, since I found them boring.

That said I VASTLY prefer the ME2 Cerberus (partially, because it tends to swing around in ME2 too) than ME1 and ME3.

That's the thing. Cerberus in ME2 was clearly trying to manipulate Shepard. They are just used the excuse of moral grey to justify their actions.

That's how YOU see things.
Others disagree.
That's the funny thing about morality.

The way I see it was that Cerberus *was* moraly grey - until the devs ruined that compeltely by writing incompetence of stellar magnitude.

[Blooddrunk1004]

All this talk about The Jedi order vs Sith Empire...
Both sides are not right or wrong, however, i don't understand why Revan was brought into this.
KOTOR is just fight between Light vs Dark.

Did anyone tried KOTOR 2?

It explores the nature of the force and what it means to be cut off and lost. Unlike the first game it shows the shades of grey of both Jedi and Sith. Why does no one mention Kreia? - a manipulative mastermind who is alone
pursuing the only moral agenda in an entire galaxy. If there is any antagonist that ever questioned my mind it was her.

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 17 décembre 2013 - 09:59 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

It also tries to make you being charitable be a bad action.

In other words, very ham fisted at moments.