434 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
I think you missunderstood that. They meant reguardless to his past he was not. That does not mean he never will be. Also, what TIM want is vastly different then what Saren wanted. They're  consept is also simaler.

No, they flat out LIED.

Tehy said he was not indoctrinated. But it turns out he was  -ever since he got his eyes (which was logn before shep met him, thus he was under Reaper influence in ME2)
And they clearly said they wont' make him into Saren 2.0. And yet the did. The same bloody thing. Powerfull agents who go by "at all cost" mentality, that end up being indoctrinated. And they can both be talked into suicide at the very end.

This is not a case of inconsistancy.  My point is the actions of the character must be consistate with the way they think , not use common logic.

There is nothing consistent. Cerberus has been described by the devs as brutally efficient and dangerous. And yet the organization they show us is incompetent as hell, and realisticly shouldn't have survived  minutes, let alone decades.
Everything is incosistent. TIM too. He goes from pragmatists to racists to incompetent depending on which mission or DLC you're doing.

"No, they flat out LIED.

Tehy said he was not indoctrinated. But it turns out he was  -ever since he got his eyes (which was logn before shep met him, thus he was under Reaper influence in ME2)
And they clearly said they wont' make him into Saren 2.0. And yet the did. The same bloody thing. Powerfull agents who go by "at all cost" mentality, that end up being indoctrinated. And they can both be talked into suicide at the very end."

You still don't get that he became indoctrinated only after he brought the proto reaper on to the base? He's a hint, you put a reaper corpe on your base, you're going to get indoctrinated. Before he did that he was not indoctrinated, after he brought it on to his base he became indoctrinated... Do you not get that?

"There is nothing consistent. Cerberus has been described by the devs as brutally efficient and dangerous. And yet the organization they show us is incompetent as hell, and realisticly shouldn't have survived  minutes, let alone decades.
Everything is incosistent. TIM too. He goes from pragmatists to racists to incompetent depending on which mission or DLC you're doing."

That not an inconsistancy. So time cerberus succeed in ther mission and some time they fail. If you read the time line for cerberus in LOTSB, you'll see that. And how can a charcter like TIM who is not showing all his card or prosonality to you because he wants to manipulate you going to show you how he really is?

How can you tell the straight persona of a person who trying to show a poker face all the time?

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
She never states why she purchased it. Anything anyone says on the reason is pure speculation

Sorry, It's obviouse why she bought it.

No, it is not.

You are projecting and assumign far, FAR too much and treating it as proof.

Form motivation, to long-term plans and goals...all for a character that actually has very little screen time.

Try dealing with facts. The conclusions you come to based on a few lines are not not facts. The lines are facts.

You do NOT know why Meredith bought the idol. Why wouldn't she? A sword made with ancient lyrium? Would you buy it for your Hawke? Of course you would, because it sounds awesome and powerfull.

You make no sense. Character in the story do just get things because they are awesome and powerful. They get things because they are tools used as a means to an end. She is not going to have  lyriun sword just because. She intends to use it with her job. And She clearly is paraniode of mages.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Leaguer of One, you're basing a claim off of an assumption with no evidence. There's no truth to your words.

Assuming that you're always right doesn't mean that you categorically and objectively are.

[leaguer of one]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Leaguer of One, you're basing a claim off of an assumption with no evidence. There's no truth to your words.

Assuming that you're always right doesn't mean that you categorically and objectively are.

Then please explain why Meredith bought the idol then.

[Sylvius the Mad]

leaguer of one wrote...

Then please explain why Meredith bought the idol then.

No.

That we don't have an alternative explanation is not evidence that your explanation is correct.

[David7204]

I'm going to chip here and say that the most likely explanation is exactly that - the most likely explanation.

So, yes, the absence of any other possible explanations absolutely tends to indicate that the one explanation is correct.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

I'm going to chip here and say that the most likely explanation is exactly that - the most likely explanation.

So, yes, the absence of any other possible explanations absolutely tends to indicate that the one explanation is correct.

Ummm no it doesn't

And play the game first to get a better understanding

[leaguer of one]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Then please explain why Meredith bought the idol then.

No.

That we don't have an alternative explanation is not evidence that your explanation is correct.

My opinion is based on her action.
In Act 1 she's craking down on mages, even going as far as make mage who pass there harrowing traquil.
In act 2, she limit all the mages freedom with in the tower. You here this in the tower court yard and from Ander's. She even goes as far as restrict mages from contacting there families.

This does not bide she's suspect something going on in the circle. She is placing all these restrictions on the mages for no reason at all?

And then suddenly she buy the lyrium idol and makes a sword out of it.

So your saying all the resrtiction she places on mage in Act 1 and 2 and buys the idol for know reason?

[leaguer of one]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm going to chip here and say that the most likely explanation is exactly that - the most likely explanation.

So, yes, the absence of any other possible explanations absolutely tends to indicate that the one explanation is correct.

Ummm no it doesn't

And play the game first to get a better understanding,

Explain why Meredith placed all those restricitons on Mages in act 1 and 2 if she did not suspect their of being blood mage in the circle.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

leaguer of one wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Leaguer of One, you're basing a claim off of an assumption with no evidence. There's no truth to your words.

Assuming that you're always right doesn't mean that you categorically and objectively are.

Then please explain why Meredith bought the idol then.

That's a strawman argument. 

I'm not making a claim. I'm rejecting yours based on lack of evidence beyond an assumption and headcanon.

[AresKeith]

leaguer of one wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm going to chip here and say that the most likely explanation is exactly that - the most likely explanation.

So, yes, the absence of any other possible explanations absolutely tends to indicate that the one explanation is correct.

Ummm no it doesn't

And play the game first to get a better understanding,

Explain why Meredith placed all those restricitons on Mages in act 1 and 2 if she did not suspect their of being blood mage in the circle.

Nobody is disputing that claim since it was obvious in act 1

[David7204]

AresKeith wrote...

Ummm no it doesn't

And play the game first to get a better understanding

Yes. It does.

If there are many, many possible and likely explanations, a single theory has to be considered tentative. If there are few or even one, a single theory has much more credibility.

Modifié par David7204, 20 décembre 2013 - 12:05 .

[leaguer of one]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Leaguer of One, you're basing a claim off of an assumption with no evidence. There's no truth to your words.

Assuming that you're always right doesn't mean that you categorically and objectively are.

Then please explain why Meredith bought the idol then.

That's a strawman argument. 

I'm not making a claim. I'm rejecting yours based on lack of evidence beyond an assumption and headcanon.

It not a stawman arguement. Look at how much she restracted mages in act 1 and act 2. How she made traquil mages who passed their horrowing. How she resricted passed for mages in their own tower. All In ACT 1 and 2. You don't think she did that because she did not suspect the mages were doing anything?

And you don't think form that suspition she would not prepare any thing?

So really please explain why she bought the idol.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I'm going to chip here and say that the most likely explanation is exactly that - the most likely explanation.

So, yes, the absence of any other possible explanations absolutely tends to indicate that the one explanation is correct.

So before people could explain what planetary orbital retrograde was, the most likely explanation of the planets moving in circles across the sky at different points of the year was most likely correct.

That before mathematic calculations and observations took place in the beginning of modern astronomical knowledge, the Ptolemeic explanation of the Earth being the center of the Universe with the sun, planets, and stars orbiting it was most likely correct.

That medieval explanations of how the sun was a giant burning log in the sky was most likely correct.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Ummm no it doesn't

And play the game first to get a better understanding

Yes. It does.

If there are many, many possible and likely explanations, a single theory has to be considered tentative. If there are few or even one, a single theory has much more credibility.

A theory or assumption will remain what they are until proven true

[leaguer of one]

AresKeith wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm going to chip here and say that the most likely explanation is exactly that - the most likely explanation.

So, yes, the absence of any other possible explanations absolutely tends to indicate that the one explanation is correct.

Ummm no it doesn't

And play the game first to get a better understanding,

Explain why Meredith placed all those restricitons on Mages in act 1 and 2 if she did not suspect their of being blood mage in the circle.

Nobody is disputing that claim since it was obvious in act 1

Then is should be obvious that she would do something about it. You're saying she suspect blood mages in the circle , take step to restict the mages over the suspition and investigate the issue yet not takes steps in case she has to annual the tower?

Really, it make no sense to you she would do all that and not take steps to prepare to annual the tower just in case?

[leaguer of one]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm going to chip here and say that the most likely explanation is exactly that - the most likely explanation.

So, yes, the absence of any other possible explanations absolutely tends to indicate that the one explanation is correct.

So before people could explain what planetary orbital retrograde was, the most likely explanation of the planets moving in circles across the sky at different points of the year was most likely correct.

That before mathematic calculations and observations took place in the beginning of modern astronomical knowledge, the Ptolemeic explanation of the Earth being the center of the Universe with the sun, planets, and stars orbiting it was most likely correct.

That medieval explanations of how the sun was a giant burning log in the sky was most likely correct.

This is a vastly differnet case then that. If you look at the peronality, beliefs, and actions of Meredith you can clearly see why she got the lyrium idol in the first place.

[PsychoBlonde]

 Every time I see this thread all I can think of is "that poor Archdemon, he didn't have any friends!"

The only Antagonists of the PC (someone who actively works against your goals) in DA2 was Mother Petrice and (possibly) the Arishok.  Meredith and Orsino never did anything to foil your goals or interfere with you.  They were more like sudden disasters than actual antagonists who worked against Hawke's goals and for their own.  This is also a major reason why they were WAY less interesting than the Arishok/Mother Petrice stuff.

Ditto for the Archdemon being WAY less interesting than Loghain.

So, the title of this thread ought to be more "don't make the Final Boss a mindless sack of HP and Damage we care nothing about".

[MassivelyEffective0730]

leaguer of one wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Leaguer of One, you're basing a claim off of an assumption with no evidence. There's no truth to your words.

Assuming that you're always right doesn't mean that you categorically and objectively are.

Then please explain why Meredith bought the idol then.

That's a strawman argument. 

I'm not making a claim. I'm rejecting yours based on lack of evidence beyond an assumption and headcanon.

It not a stawman arguement. Look at how much she restracted mages in act 1 and act 2. How she made traquil mages who passed their horrowing. How she resricted passed for mages in their own tower. All In ACT 1 and 2. You don't think she did that because she did not suspect the mages were doing anything?

And you don't think form that suspition she would not prepare any thing?

So really please explain why she bought the idol.

I'm not thinking anything. 

I'm not making a claim. I have said absolutely nothing about Meredith or her reign as the Templar Knight-Commander in Kirkwall.

I'm not even talking about this matter at all.

I'm telling you that because you have an explanation that you've created, don't run around thinking that it must be true. It's headcanon. One hundred percent headcanon. There is no evidence to support your claim. I'm trying to tell you to understand reason and logic in a debate. You can't run around thinking that because you have an idea, it must be right, unless you have evidence of how or why the action in your idea has taken place. You have nothing but assumptions and inadmissable and circumstantal evidence taken from the benefit of hindsight. 

[David7204]

Actually Massively, that's a common misconception.

You see, we have this idea that Galileo and Copernicus were beautiful enlightened thinkers bringing math and logic to the world, fighting against moronic bible thumpers insisting the Earth was the center of it all, with nothing but scripture to back them up.

A myth. Although Copernicus and Galileo certainly were enlightened thinkers, the math was actually against them. Proponents of the geocentric solar system had developer mathematics that could very accurately predict the motion and position of celestial bodies, far better than the math proposed for the Heliocentric model. After all, for hundreds of years, a huge chunk of the motivation behind the development and refinement of mathematics was astronomy.

But I digress. You see, this is why science is never 'final.' Scientists do and should assume the explanation that best fits the evidence and observations avaliable is true. And yes, they've often been completely wrong.

Modifié par David7204, 20 décembre 2013 - 12:14 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

leaguer of one wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm going to chip here and say that the most likely explanation is exactly that - the most likely explanation.

So, yes, the absence of any other possible explanations absolutely tends to indicate that the one explanation is correct.

So before people could explain what planetary orbital retrograde was, the most likely explanation of the planets moving in circles across the sky at different points of the year was most likely correct.

That before mathematic calculations and observations took place in the beginning of modern astronomical knowledge, the Ptolemeic explanation of the Earth being the center of the Universe with the sun, planets, and stars orbiting it was most likely correct.

That medieval explanations of how the sun was a giant burning log in the sky was most likely correct.

This is a vastly differnet case then that. If you look at the peronality, beliefs, and actions of Meredith you can clearly see why she got the lyrium idol in the first place.

No, you can't.

Have you ever take a course on modern law or logic and reason?

You can develop a motive, and you can develop a theory, but without hard, physical evidence, you cannot establish a truth. You can skewer any person or idea to fit a motive and a theory. That's why it's not accepted in legal proceedings. That's why its not accepted as proof. 

And let me tell, you this isn't a different case. You're making a theory to fit an opinion. You're not even making a theory to fit evidence. This is akin to someone like Ptolemy claiming the Earth was the center of the Universe.

[leaguer of one]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm not thinking anything. 

I'm not making a claim. I have said absolutely nothing about Meredith or her reign as the Templar Knight-Commander in Kirkwall.

I'm not even talking about this matter at all.

I'm telling you that because you have an explanation that you've created, don't run around thinking that it must be true. It's headcanon. One hundred percent headcanon. There is no evidence to support your claim. I'm trying to tell you to understand reason and logic in a debate. You can't run around thinking that because you have an idea, it must be right, unless you have evidence of how or why the action in your idea has taken place. You have nothing but assumptions and inadmissable and circumstantal evidence taken from the benefit of hindsight. 

This is not a head cannon. This is fallowing smoke to a fire. She's been invetigating, restricing and  voilationg the circle mages for a reason. She thinks thay are blood mages in hiding. You say it's an assuption to think she would perpare for the worse in case she is right?

That makes no sense.

So really please explain why she bought the idol.

[leaguer of one]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...



No, you can't.

Have you ever take a course on modern law or logic and reason?

You can develop a motive, and you can develop a theory, but without hard, physical evidence, you cannot establish a truth. You can skewer any person or idea to fit a motive and a theory. That's why it's not accepted in legal proceedings. That's why its not accepted as proof. 

And let me tell, you this isn't a different case. You're making a theory to fit an opinion. You're not even making a theory to fit evidence. This is akin to someone like Ptolemy claiming the Earth was the center of the Universe.

The evidince is her actions and her duty. She hunts blood mages. If she thinks blood mages are in the circle, what do you think she'll do?

[GreyLycanTrope]

I have an alternate explanation, poor use of a plot device by the writers to make her crazy, just like when Orsino just decided to go blood mage for no good reason. Seriously this is the first time in game anyone runs across this Red lyrium, yet for some reasons she pays top dollar for it because she's convince she can make a powerful weapon out of this new things they found despite lyrium not even being used to make swords to begin with.

[Sifr]

leaguer of one wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Leaguer of One, you're basing a claim off of an assumption with no evidence. There's no truth to your words.

Assuming that you're always right doesn't mean that you categorically and objectively are.

Then please explain why Meredith bought the idol then.

Because it was kinda pretty?

Seriously though, someone comes up to her with a new and more powerful form of Lyrium that no-one had ever seen before? Since the Templars huff the stuff like paint to help them fight mages and more powerful lyrium would help better combat Blood Magic.... are you telling me she wouldn't buy it?

From her point of view, having a better defence against Blood Mages is always going to be a good thing. She just didn't realise how powerful the stuff really was!

While there likely were a few Blood Mages found to be in the Circle, Meredith's fear of them having infiltrated and taken over the Mages under her command, morphed from fear into outright paranoia because of the Idol.