434 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

This like seeing smoke, seeing animals run away from the smoke, and here people cry "fire" as they pass you by. You're only arguement is that because you don't directly see the fire, it may not be a fire.

And it may not.  Yes.

Usually, if it something other then firs their are sign that that it maybe something else. If is an out of control smoking  bulldozer there would be sound of one. It this case what it there show that it may be something else?

Good thing there isn't some form of recreational pyrotechnic device, designed to generate a cloud of smoke but yet leave no actual flames or fire damage when it goes off...oh wait, yeah there is.



But please do go ahead and pretend that just because you think theres a fire, that it automatically means there is indeed a fire, like a goddamn over-sensitive smoke detector would.

Again, their would be signs of that those were used. If you go closer and feel more themal heat as well, it some how a smoke grenade?

But you yourself don't have this kind of evidence for your own theory. You have no people screaming about a fire, or animals running, or anything. You basically took smoke coming out of a single room and declared it a fire without anything really substantial to back it up other then wanting it to be a fire. You aren't getting close to it, you aren't investigating, you are simply declaring it a fire from your safe distnce and declaring everyone else wrong simply because your assumptions says it is.

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The templars make up the main bulk of the chantries army, hell their combined numbers outnumber the established armies of most nations if the wiki is to be believed. They have a variety of duties beyond simply watching over mages, but their numbers are so large that it allows branches of the order to preform this duty while still maintaining a sizeable force outside of the circles to serve the chantry and its interests.

Dismissing them as simply guys with swords who watch mages is a misunderstanding of what it means to be a templar, since it requires you to actively be alert or even partake in the tracking and subduing of demons, apostates, maleficarum, and dangerous cults. They're the closest thing to a organized law enforcement force thedas has, imo. Much more standardized and scrutinized then most of the local town guards are and certainly elite in comparison to them.

Then you missed my point. I never said they were just guys who watch mages. I'm saying Lotion is wrong to say they are the elite worriors of the chantry. That title goes to the seekers.
And no they are not  the closest thing to a organized law enforcement force thedas has. They are just the most organized.  Many places in thedus can easily police themselves. The Templars just help out but they are not the final say in law enforcement in Thedus.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Here's a simple idea for you to try and understand. Meredith buying the idol had nothing to do with meredith wanting to wipe out the circle at all. If she wanted to destroy the circle, she would have been able to do it the moment blood mages were discovered implanting demons into templars. She could have done so when there was a rise in the amount of supposedly rare blood mages and abominations in act 1 and 2. She could have done so when there were serial murders occurring and it was a discovered blood magic was involved. She could have when there was confirmed tevinter activity within the walls of kirkwall.

She wanted the circle under control, no matter what happened. Her buying the idol could have been an attempt to prepare for the next big disaster, in response to the threat the qunari had posed and demonstrated in act 2. She could have not even realized the idols power and was simply buying an interesting piece of art for all we know. Maybe she discovered bartrand and the idol began to influence her at that point for her to buy it and keep it secret, like the one ring from lord of the rings.

There is little information to actually support any one theory, but there is however enough to support at least the dismal of them all as well, including the thought that meredith wanted to kill all the mages and purge the circle from the get go.

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

This like seeing smoke, seeing animals run away from the smoke, and here people cry "fire" as they pass you by. You're only arguement is that because you don't directly see the fire, it may not be a fire.

And it may not.  Yes.

Usually, if it something other then firs their are sign that that it maybe something else. If is an out of control smoking  bulldozer there would be sound of one. It this case what it there show that it may be something else?

Good thing there isn't some form of recreational pyrotechnic device, designed to generate a cloud of smoke but yet leave no actual flames or fire damage when it goes off...oh wait, yeah there is.



But please do go ahead and pretend that just because you think theres a fire, that it automatically means there is indeed a fire, like a goddamn over-sensitive smoke detector would.

Again, their would be signs of that those were used. If you go closer and feel more themal heat as well, it some how a smoke grenade?

But you yourself don't have this kind of evidence for your own theory. You have no people screaming about a fire, or animals running, or anything. You basically took smoke coming out of a single room and declared it a fire without anything really substantial to back it up other then wanting it to be a fire. You aren't getting close to it, you aren't investigating, you are simply declaring it a fire from your safe distnce and declaring everyone else wrong simply because your assumptions says it is.

Out side of Meredith's actions. beleifs, what the templar duty is, the most likly thing templar would do it they thought the circle was fill with blood mages and they felt they may have to fight them one day, the templar's of kirkwalls history of smuggling lyrium, the tempars need of lyrium, the fact the hunt haritics and cults and destory anything that is the occult, and that templars don't buy lyrium idols just because?

Modifié par leaguer of one, 21 décembre 2013 - 12:28 .

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Here's a simple idea for you to try and understand. Meredith buying the idol had nothing to do with meredith wanting to wipe out the circle at all. If she wanted to destroy the circle, she would have been able to do it the moment blood mages were discovered implanting demons into templars. She could have done so when there was a rise in the amount of supposedly rare blood mages and abominations in act 1 and 2. She could have done so when there were serial murders occurring and it was a discovered blood magic was involved. She could have when there was confirmed tevinter activity within the walls of kirkwall.

She wanted the circle under control, no matter what happened. Her buying the idol could have been an attempt to prepare for the next big disaster, in response to the threat the qunari had posed and demonstrated in act 2. She could have not even realized the idols power and was simply buying an interesting piece of art for all we know. Maybe she discovered bartrand and the idol began to influence her at that point for her to buy it and keep it secret, like the one ring from lord of the rings.

There is little information to actually support any one theory, but there is however enough to support at least the dismal of them all as well, including the thought that meredith wanted to kill all the mages and purge the circle from the get go.

Then your srill not getting my point. I'm say she was preparing to annual the circle if she had to. Templars don't by lyrium just because nor lyrium idols. She go it at a time she felt the circle we fill with blood mages. It would make sense to see, with a duty of a templar, that the templars would get ready to annual a circle if they felt it was filled with blood mages.  Being that lyrium is a power up for templars, you don't think she would see red lyrium a a boost to help her do her job? Now she at this time thinks the circle is filled with mages, you don't think she may see that she may have to annual the circle?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Leaguer, templars buy lyrium and equipment for the same reason cops buy bullets.
Because for your daily duties, it is kinda necessary.
It has no direct connection to Circle Annulment.
Nor do Templars need any special provisions for Circle Annulment.
Neither the lyrium nor the sword have any deeper meaining behind them.

You're either being Captain Uselessly Obvious or nitpicking or backpedaling. Take a pick.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...
No those are not the elite group and the lore and story never give any statement that they are. The elites are the seekers.

Actually, it does.
Templars have both better equipment and training than almost any soldier on thedas.That makes them elite.

Seekers are a separate order.

1. It nakes a bif difference if it made of pure lyrium and if the person using it is a templar. Even more so when the templar get it at that timefeel the circle they are protecting is fill with blood mages.
2. I claim she got it if she found that she had no choice but to annual them

No, it does not. Every magical sword is enchanted wiht lyrium runes. The only difference is that this sword has more lyrium in it and it's red.

Your claim makes no sense. There is NO REASON to get a sword specificly just for the annulment. And at the time she gets it, she doesn't  think the Circle needs annulment.

1. Quit avoding the questions.
2. This is a templar commander who thinks the circle she is watching over is fill with blood mages, how would some like that think not to prepare for an annualment  if they fealt the circle was in that much dire events?

...

You're not even listening, are you?

There we have it again - you THINK you understand Meredith perfectly and extrapolate her toughts.
You fixate on the annulment and the sword wihout anything concrete.

1. It clear you are not understanding it since your using a point that has no relivence to the plot.

It has a relevance ot logical reasoning. Something you're not using ...or understanding.

2.Who else would want or need to get a pure lyrium sword? Say because Kirkwall is dangerous is not  a strong point. There are many other sword she could of gotten out side of one made of lyrium if she fealt the need to protect herself in kirkwall that are not made of lyrium. She go a sword that increases her strenght and an anti-mage templar. She going to need that on a random thug from kirkwall. She got a sword the increses her resistanct to magic at a time she fealt the circle is fill with blood mages, blood mages she made an oath to hunt down.
You can't put 2 and 2 together?

Why NOT get a pure lyrium sword?
Answer me that.
Meredith has got the funds for it and a high position (which makes an ornate weapon even more fitting).

You claim Meredith took it specificly to increase her power, and yet NO ONE knew the powers of red lyrium. As far as anyone knew, it was just an exotic magical sword. There was (and still is) nothing to indicate it grants resistance to blood magic.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 décembre 2013 - 01:28 .

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

"Actually, it does.
Templars have both better equipment and training than almost any soldier on thedas.That makes them elite.

Seekers are a separate order."
Wrong again. Many armies and orders are said to be better then the templars and mbetter geared. They are not the elites. Nothing in the story or lore says or shows that. If you keep saying it I would have to ask for a sorce.

"No, it does not. Every magical sword is enchanted wiht lyrium runes. The only difference is that this sword has more lyrium in it and it's red.

Your claim makes no sense. There is NO REASON to get a sword specificly just for the annulment. And at the time she gets it, she doesn't  think the Circle needs annulment."

The differenct is the sword was made to enchance a templars ability to nagate magic. Big differance. Enchantment are no wear near that powerful.
And of cours it make sense to get a sword specifily to get ready to annual a circle,. Especially when you feel the circle is filled with blood mages.

"...

You're not even listening, are you?

There we have it again - you THINK you understand Meredith perfectly and extrapolate her toughts.
You fixate on the annulment and the sword wihout anything concrete."

Outside of her motives, beliefs, her duty, what a templar would do if they feel a circle is filled with blood mages, and the fact that they are heretic and cultist hunters mean they would not just suddenly want a lyrium idol just because. Their is  no way I can judge why she would do things based on that...


"Why NOT get a pure lyrium sword? 
Answer me that.
Meredith has got the funds for it and a high position (which makes an ornate weapon even more fitting)."


You mean outside the fact that pure lyrium is poisonous to direct touch and to breath in?

"You claim Meredith took it specificly to increase her power, and yet NO ONE knew the powers of red lyrium. As far as anyone knew, it was just an exotic magical sword. There was (and still is) nothing to indicate it grants resistance to blood magic."

Lyrium by it's nature grants power to people if applied correctly. We see this all though out dao and da2. How can she no see it as away to power up with lyrium being the source of her power and mages using it to restore their magic? The only issue is that she did not know by how much it would effect her.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 21 décembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Leaguer, templars buy lyrium and equipment for the same reason cops buy bullets.
Because for your daily duties, it is kinda necessary.
It has no direct connection to Circle Annulment.
Nor do Templars need any special provisions for Circle Annulment.
Neither the lyrium nor the sword have any deeper meaining behind them.

You're either being Captain Uselessly Obvious or nitpicking or backpedaling. Take a pick.

I'm not saying her use of lyrium is wrong. I'm saying that she prepared a huge and alien dose of it at a time that can be considered to be a coincidence.
She feel the circle is filled with blood mages. In acse like that what would a knight commander do if they felt the circle is filled with blood mages, no prep in case they are right?

Normally they investages the circle and take step to prepare to annual it if they have to. Her getting the lyrium idol at the time she is investagationg and preparing to ammual the circle if she has to is  something that happened by chance?

Modifié par leaguer of one, 21 décembre 2013 - 02:59 .

[Rotward]

Hear hear! Though, to be fair, Meredith was pretty crazy before the sword.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...
I'm not saying her use of lyrium is wrong. I'm saying that she prepared a huge and alien dose of it at a time that can be considered to be a coincidence.

It CAN be considered conincidence? The nyou have no argument. Unless you want to write "can't".
Eitehr way I disagree with you.
You because you claim that something can't be a coincidence or that there MUST be a connection between A and B (even tough you lack concrete evidence) doesn't make it so

Normally they investages the circle and take step to prepare to annual it if they have to. Her getting the lyrium idol at the time she is investagationg and preparing to ammual the circle if she has to is  something that happened by chance?

Templars are ALWAYS investigating the Circle. It's their job.
There's nothing special about it, nor is there any indication that she was contemplating annuling the Circle at the tim she bought the sword.
None whatsoever.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

"Actually, it does.
Templars have both better equipment and training than almost any soldier on thedas.That makes them elite.

Seekers are a separate order."
Wrong again. Many armies and orders are said to be better then the templars and mbetter geared. They are not the elites. Nothing in the story or lore says or shows that. If you keep saying it I would have to ask for a sorce.

No, they are an elite order.
Maybe you should check the codexes.
Tempalrs dedicate their lives to their job to a greater extent than any other military unit, expect perhaps the Grey Wardens.

The differenct is the sword was made to enchance a templars ability to nagate magic. Big differance. Enchantment are no wear near that powerful.

Sauce or GTFO.

Outside of her motives, beliefs, her duty, what a templar would do if they feel a circle is filled with blood mages, and the fact that they are heretic and cultist hunters mean they would not just suddenly want a lyrium idol just because. Their is  no way I can judge why she would do things based on that...

Tehre is no way you cna KNOW.
Keay word.
Yo ucna have a dozen theories, and I cna have mine. And all of them can be credible. But we dont KNOW.

"Why NOT get a pure lyrium sword? 
Answer me that.
Meredith has got the funds for it and a high position (which makes an ornate weapon even more fitting)."


You mean outside the fact that pure lyrium is poisonous to direct touch and to breath in?

Aparently it's not. Guess the same process to make lyrium runes safe was used here.

Lyrium by it's nature grants power to people if applied correctly. We see this all though out dao and da2. How can she no see it as away to power up with lyrium being the source of her power and mages using it to restore their magic? The only issue is that she did not know by how much it would effect her.

And this is red lyrium who's properties no one knew.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

A smoke from distance is most likely (the start of / sign of) a fire.
It's less possible that it's smoke of a huge cigar's or it's caused by a smoke grenade or it's the breath of a dragon!

Mages... they're like some born punks who have dangerous special abilities. Some may honor the law and live in their territory (The Circle). Some may go radical and cause serious problems. The police duty is to watch over and investigate their territory and avoid radicalism. The outlaws kind of them out there cause serious damages. So another police duty is to hunt down those dangerous criminals.

[David7204]

Is this still being debated?

I'll say it again. The most likely explanation is just that - the most likely explanation.

If there are no other reasonable explanations for a phenomanon, then yes, you're obligated to assume that the one likely and reasonable explanation is the correct one, even if that explanation doesn't have much or even any evidence in its favor.

Modifié par David7204, 21 décembre 2013 - 12:35 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Is this still being debated?

I'll say it again. The most likely explanation is just that - the most likely explanation.

If there are no other reasonable explanations for a phenomanon, then yes, you're obligated to assume that the one likely and reasonable explanation is the correct one, even if that explanation doesn't have much or even any evidence in its favor.

That's not how the scientific method works. 

You make a hypothesis, and you work it into a theory. It's not accepted on a mass scale, nor is anyone under obligation to completely accept it without evidence. If there is no evidence or very little, what is your basis for calling it 'the most likely anyway?'

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

It is how it works.

That being said, it practically never happens in science, since if you understand a system well enough to conclusively rule out many alternatives, you're going to understand it well enough to have lots of supporting evidence anyway.

However, it can happen in situations like these. For example, the best explanation and the one we should assume for Liara being proficient in combat is that Shepard and the rest of the crew trained her, because no likely and reasonable alternatives exists. Despite that there's really no evidence pointing in that direction.

No, that is not how the scientific method works. You don't judge a theory or hypothesis correct just because you think its accurate (which you have no basis in doing because you have no evidence).

And no, I reject that idea, based on my own knowledge of what a Commanding Officer aboard a starship does and based on the level. intensity, and time for training that goes into becoming proficient. I don't believe for one instant that the crew or Commanding Officer aboard a deployed vessel had the time or facilities to properly train Liara. There's not a shred of evidence in that direction at all, which makes it a hypothesis. My counter-hypothesis is that Liara has some very basic skill with firearms from having to defend herself from pirates on excavation digs. She states this herself. Liara is not a combatant. She doesn't have the skills that Shepard and crew does, and will not gain those skills from a few sessions of informal weapons familiarization and sparring, especially aboard a vessel that will realistically have the entire crew engaged with their duties and with Liara herself having to fulfill some kind of role on the ship. If she has so much free time aboard the ship that she has time to properly train intensively for skills that to months, even years, to hone, then she really has no place aboard the ship at all, since everybody else would be too busy using those skills and applying it to the mission.

[The Elder King]

@David7204: what skills do you include in 'combat proficiency'?

[The Elder King]

David7204 wrote...

Same ones that Shepard has. Or a biotic Shepard, anyway. Shooting. Stamina. Biotics. Not getting shot - combat movement and stances and whatnot.

Understood.
At first I thought you were talking about weapon proficiency, where she's obviously not on the same level of companions like Thane, Wrex or Garrus.

Modifié par hhh89, 21 décembre 2013 - 02:26 .

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I see david is derailing another DA thread talking about ME

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You see how crippled you are by your denial and delusions?

I see how much you are by your headcanon.

Firstly, Liara has combat proficiency at least roughly equal to the other squadmembers and approaching Shepard.

Nope! 

This is canonical beyond debate, demonstrated by multiple cutscenes.

It's not canonical because it's in a cutscene. Lots of things that are in cutscenes go against things in the codex. The lore. Badly written and scripted for 'Rule of Cool' perhaps, but Liara is not going to be anywhere near the level of proficiency of a Special Operations Officer with years of experience. She's not a combatant. She's a civilian. 

So attempting to Liara that has no such skill is not only very silly, but a pointless waste of my time. Perhaps you should make an attempt to explain the solid facts, instead of your fantasies of what Liara should have been in an alternate universe?

I never said that Liara doesn't have some skill. I'm saying that she doesn't have the skills of a Special Operations Veteran, nor is she anywhere close. Your time is wasted here anyway. Why should I care about your time. What makes you so special? It's rhetorical, you don't have to answer. I don't have any fantatsies about what Liara should be, and you certainly don't have solid facts. This really is a case of you making up headcanon to make an argument. There is zero evidence that suggests Liara was ever trained by Shepard or the crew, and zero reason to believe why. If you want to believe that, fine, but don't pass it off as the truth because they came from your almight lips and fingers. 

Secondly, your attempts to clumsily insist that every crewmember works 14, 15, 16 hour days and thus has no time to spare (on a ship 200 years in the future with all sorts of technology unavaliable now) are, at best, hypocritical, uninformed, and baseless.

Everything anyone does that isn't you is clumsy. You have a superiority complex, we know. Unwarranted, but its there. 

Next, I never suggested hours that crewmembers work aboard a warship. That's entirely you. But I'm going to guess, based on modern U.S. Military procedure, that it's more of a rotation style shift, with two rotations every 24 hours, with a twelve hour watch for each crewmember, and twelve hours off (that would be designated rest time. That's being generous with the time to be honest. And this is how the crew is going to performing for the duration of the mission. In fact, this is how the crew would normally operate. There is not going to be much time for training the civilian with little skills. And her purpose on the ship is not to be handling firearms anyway, it's to be studying Prothean tech or working as a mission specialist in some capacity. Military Operations aren't like TV David. Even with the advanced tech you see, you're still going to need specialists to repair and maintain the systems. And if the systems you believe are in place are there, then there will  be an even smaller crew aboard as the ship and even less personnel to train Liara since the ship will have a smaller pool of manpower to draw from. 

But go ahead and throw criticisms at me because I don't think for one second that Liara will have much of any kind of real training aboard the Normandy from anyone. Or since I know with absolute certainty that it takes many months to even years to train someone into becoming an effective military asset, something you hand waive as being able to be taught in a matter of weeks. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

hhh89 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Same ones that Shepard has. Or a biotic Shepard, anyway. Shooting. Stamina. Biotics. Not getting shot - combat movement and stances and whatnot.

Understood.
At first I thought you were talking about weapon proficiency, where she's obviously not on the same level of companions like Thane, Wrex or Garrus.

She's no where near the level of anyone else in shooting. Stamina wise, I would doubt this, but we have no effective demonstration of physical stamina from anyone to be honest. Biotics, yes, but it's pretty hard for her to not have some training in that field. She is an Asari afterall.

All of this is gameplay centric. David is nitpicking the things that he believes are here. 

[Rusty Sandusky]

 Mass Effect doesn't have enough kebab removal.

[The Elder King]

I honestly doubt that Mordin is that better than Liara in shooting, considering his scientist background. He's not a soldier. He and Liara have probably the same level of basic skills in firearms. Tali is better, but not that much, in my opinion.
Though yes, the others are way better than her in this regards.

[Augustei]

David7204 wrote...

You see how crippled you are by your denial and delusions?

Oh the irony.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

hhh89 wrote...

I honestly doubt that Mordin is that better than Liara in shooting, considering his scientist background. He's not a soldier. He and Liara have probably the same level of basic skills in firearms. Tali is better, but not that much, in my opinion.
Though yes, the others are way better than her in this regards.

Mordin was a member of the Salarian STG. We're even described a scene where Mordin casually kills mercenaries with zero empathy or problem. I'm going to say that Mordin is very proficient in firearms. Tali has some level of military training, though I doubt it's to a real applicable level.

Let's put it this way; Everyone else has some kind of background with fighting and weapon capability than Liara.

Ashley is a trained soldier, one that I personally believe is underqualified for the mission, but I rationalize her being there in that my Shepard doesn't have the time to sign off on transfer forms, so he keeps her because he needs the manpower.

Kaidan is an experienced military officer and proven combat biotic. He's someone dependable and competent, and somebody I can trust to accomplish the mission.

Wrex is a veteran mercenary with centuries of experience in combat among Krogan (which is rather violent), an he is a Krogan Battlemaster. He has skills with biotics that are very powerful and has been honed for combat for centuries. While he's one of the more unpredictable elements on the team, his physical skills and lethality are not in question in any way.

Garrus is a veteran Turian Special Forces soldier, and has a history as a C-Sec Officer, as well as being a Spectre Candidate at one point. He's lethal and competent, and he'll take orders.

Tali is arguably one of my weakest combatants, but being the daughter of an Admiral has led to her being familiar with military life and life in the flotilla makes her comfortable in space. She also has a prodigious talent for engineering, as well as key knowledge of the Geth. She has combat training, but I don't think she's someone who I'm going to want to have with me in the field as a combatant alone. She's more of a support specialist.

That's everyone on the ME1 team, and imo, they all have more uses and utility than Liara. Beyond being a Prothean expert, Liara really isn't someone that has a place on the ship.