434 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

wolfhowwl wrote...

It's going to be another indoctrinated ****** like Meredith or the Illusive Man.

Search your feelings; you know it to be true.

oh yeah and the Illusive man, thanks for that I just forgot that and you've gone and reminded me What they did to him was bloody awful Lets hope it never happens again.

[GenericEnemy]

I think it depends n the the story being told, but most of the time I'll take my Irenicuses, Loghains, Haytham Kenways etc over Archdemons and the like anyday, yeah.

[Killdren88]

Eh, I don't mind having a Complete monster as the villian. I'm one of those who is addicted to the crusty dry formula of fantasy villians. I've never had problems with the ones I've encountered hence I've never branched out to more complex Villians...That or having the Villian go through one of these. Just so long as I have someone I will love hating and will enjoy killing at the end of the game. I am fine with it.

[Nightdragon8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

One thing that really concerns me about Dragon Age Inquisition is the writing team dehumanizing the antagonist again like they did with Meredith.
When you give the villain motivations and reasons for their actions like with Loghain doing what he did for the sake of Ferelden's security it makes for a good antagonist who to some can even be sympathetic and agreeable and if not this they at least make for a good well written antagonist.
Meredith was like this at well up until a certain point where we had the whole "Red Lyrium just made her crazy" when this happens everything just sort of falls apart and you dont really care anymore, your just there to kill the crazy lady and w/e. Same with the Saren and the Reapers its not good, ME would have been so much better if Saren was simply a rogue spectre making a power play or something.
So please stop making your antagonists crazy, possessed and brainwashed. Because someone like Loghain is so so much better =D

..... sorry he sacerficed half his army, his king, just because he thought he was smarter than the darkspawn. Made him an instint monster, then he tried to lay ALL the blame on the grey wardens as if they assassinated him. I seriously wonder how he kept his troops under his command with a stuiped lie of, "I saved you from the grey warden's" line. If I where a soilder I would have deserited the army almost on the spot.

Meridth did have "motivations and reasons" for her actions bloodmages where abound and she was protecting the people of Kirkwall from mages.

The problem with your agruments is that they where honest to god losing there humanity, with Meridth the red lyrium was taking over, with Saren and the Reapers he was willingly turning himself into a husk. He was losing what made him "human"

So in reality its a good anology or maybe even an allegory, considering technology is slowly coming to the point where we will be able to augment our bodies to a degree, That maybe by adding things to one body in the name of "Power" we lose our souls.

So really its a story telling methiod to covay that the pursuit of "Power" should not be done at the cost of ones soul. Which I think many polititions fail to grasp to this very day.

[Ieldra]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
To me the problem is overuse. There's nothing wrong with a Maniacal Cackling villian (even though I prefer the nuanced ones) it's just that it gets used way, way, WAY too often. It gets dull. And sometimes it seems like a copout, yah know if the badguy is unambiguously bad (or insane) you don't have to feel bad about killing them. Or think about why you're doing it. The Illusive Man might have gone into the grey-area of the villain spectrum but he was always a racist **** and then he even got indoctrinated which, again, robs the villain of any kind of ambiguity. Loghain was good though. I hope DAI goes that direction again.

And that - bolded part - is what cheapens our protagonists. I want killing the antagonists to feel ambiguous, and I want to have to think about why I'm doing it. Loghain turned out to be an antagonist I could respect, even down to his last words before the fight, and after, before he died. I would like more of his kind. The Arishok in DA2 was of the same kind, though he didn't have quite the same narrative impact, being only a chapter boss.

[CroGamer002]

Please, don't do it again Bioware.


I'm sick and tired of villains being one-dimensionally evil. And putting up slapstick in which is kinda mentioned in passing there's more to them, is not gonna cut it.

[Drone223]

MasterScribe wrote...

I disagree. I think it's unrealistic to humanize every antagonist. It should depend on the narrative.

Sometimes a traditional antagonist works really well, and is more appropriate.

Sometimes I don't care why he or she is antagonizing me.

^This, you can have a sympathetic antagonist, but not all antagonists should be sympathetic.

[Nightdragon8]

Mesina2 wrote...

Please, don't do it again Bioware.


I'm sick and tired of villains being one-dimensionally evil. And putting up slapstick in which is kinda mentioned in passing there's more to them, is not gonna cut it.

basicly you want them to be in the grey area, pretty much like how TIM was in ME2... He was grey boarding on black. till ME3 when he went completly black.

Grey area bad guys just doesn't work well for games because, in games where there are grey area badguys, you end up feeling disconnected from the, protaganist because there is only one option to do. Then we will have a slue of new complainers demanding being given the option to side with them. Which doesn't really work.

[wolfhowwl]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
I am actually quite fine with the antagonists that we have had so far.

I'm fine with DAO's mix. Meredith and Orsino, not so much. And don't get me started on the presentation of the Reapers.

Yes, let's not start on the Reapers, lest we summon David from the depths of the ME3 forums.
I understand how Orsino and Meredith were meant to represent the two extremes, although I don't think they were bad. Although they could have been written better, perhaps.

Did Bioware claim that, I think I remember one of their people saying that. I don't really agree. Orsino while ineffective and corrupt didn't really strike me as an extremist like the Resolutionists Leliana tells us about. He may not like the Circle system but he wasn't resorting to extreme methods to destroy it either. Then again we learn very little about him anyways.

As for Meredith she is undermined when we don't know where the hardline Templar ideology ends and red lyrium madness begins.

MasterScribe wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...
It's going to be another indoctrinated ****** like Meredith or the Illusive Man.

Search your feelings; you know it to be true.

Meredith wasn't indoctrinated, though. She wasn't being controlled by anyone.

Red
lyrium is more like a drug that destroys your self control and turns
you into a chaotic husk driven by your own worst traits.

Sounds like red lyrium turns people into caricatures. 

But yes I did fail to distinguish between Bioware plot devices that make people do dumb things to move the plot along. It makes it so much easier for their writers.

Should we try to justify Meredith's increasing hard measures? Too hard, lets just have magic drive her insane (hey its also a great excuse for an awesome button boss battle!)

Should we try to justify the Illusive Man becoming an enemy due to differing ideologies or goals? Too hard, lets just have space magic make him hostile.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 12 décembre 2013 - 09:31 .

[Ieldra]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

One thing that really concerns me about Dragon Age Inquisition is the writing team dehumanizing the antagonist again like they did with Meredith.
When you give the villain motivations and reasons for their actions like with Loghain doing what he did for the sake of Ferelden's security it makes for a good antagonist who to some can even be sympathetic and agreeable and if not this they at least make for a good well written antagonist.
Meredith was like this at well up until a certain point where we had the whole "Red Lyrium just made her crazy" when this happens everything just sort of falls apart and you dont really care anymore, your just there to kill the crazy lady and w/e. Same with the Saren and the Reapers its not good, ME would have been so much better if Saren was simply a rogue spectre making a power play or something.
So please stop making your antagonists crazy, possessed and brainwashed. Because someone like Loghain is so so much better =D

..... sorry he sacerficed half his army, his king, just because he thought he was smarter than the darkspawn. Made him an instint monster, then he tried to lay ALL the blame on the grey wardens as if they assassinated him. I seriously wonder how he kept his troops under his command with a stuiped lie of, "I saved you from the grey warden's" line. If I where a soilder I would have deserited the army almost on the spot.

Meridth did have "motivations and reasons" for her actions bloodmages where abound and she was protecting the people of Kirkwall from mages.

The problem with your agruments is that they where honest to god losing there humanity, with Meridth the red lyrium was taking over, with Saren and the Reapers he was willingly turning himself into a husk. He was losing what made him "human"

So in reality its a good anology or maybe even an allegory, considering technology is slowly coming to the point where we will be able to augment our bodies to a degree, That maybe by adding things to one body in the name of "Power" we lose our souls.

So really its a story telling methiod to covay that the pursuit of "Power" should not be done at the cost of ones soul. Which I think many polititions fail to grasp to this very day.

And here we come again to the matter of thematic messages I detest. There's a not so subtle difference between "Don't pursue power at the cost of your soul" and "Don't pursue power because it will cost you your soul". There's too much of the latter in these insane antagonists. As such, the magisters' attempt to breach the Golden City was, from my point of view, an admirable untertaking. What made them evil was the blood sacrifice used to get the magical power. Yet, Chantry ideology paints the attempt as such as the "original sin". Thankfully, I don't have to agree with the Chantry in this, but I would detest it if the story itself started to take up the message.

I think the overuse of ancient evils resulting in insane enemies is sending a thematic message promoting a hidebound mentality of never exploring the unknown and always sticking to your inherited nature, rather than of being careful with new powers because they can be dangerous to others and to yourself.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 décembre 2013 - 09:25 .

[Fredward]

MasterScribe wrote...
Should that really apply to EVERY antagonist, though? At some point, the player will (or at least should) encounter one or more that just aren't worth such musings.

I think an antagonist could be incredibly complex and interesting, but also completely beyond redemption.

No, it shouldn't. Some antagonists just make sense as purely evil, like the Archdemons. It's just too overused.

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here we come again to the matter of
thematic messages I detest. There's a not so subtle difference between
"Don't pursue power at the cost of your soul" and "Don't pursue power
because it will cost you your soul". There's too much of the latter in
these insane antagonists. As such, the magisters' attempt to breach the
Golden City was, from my point of view, an admirable untertaking. What
made them evil was the blood sacrifice used to get the magical power.
Yet, Chantry ideology paints the attempt as such as the "original sin".
Thankfully, I don't have to agree with the Chantry in this, but I would
detest it if the story itself started to take up the message.

I
think the overuse of ancient evils resulting in insane enemies is
sending a thematic message promoting a hidebound mentality of never
exploring the unknown and always sticking to your inherited nature,
rather than of being careful with new powers because they can be
dangerous to others and to yourself.  

Ha, this is why I always let Merrill fix the Eluvian. It's shame that's apparently going to lead to something bad... again. Because, yah know, wanting knowledge is bad.

[Augustei]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
*snip*

I'm not going to debate the justification of Loghains actions with you other than to say there were reasons beyond them that weren't simply "Im Possessed" or "I'm Insane" Everything he did was for the good of Ferelden in mind whether it was "Monstrous" or not is another thing entirely.

Should that really apply to EVERY antagonist, though? At some point, the
player will (or at least should) encounter one or more that just aren't
worth such musings.

I think an antagonist could be incredibly complex and interesting, but also completely beyond redemption.

Not every perhaps, but at least the ones that aren't giant corrupt dragons, Meredith and TIM shouldn't have been insane.. Exceptions can only really be made with giant monsters or demons etc.. things that are already mystical and out of the norm not people.

An Antagonist can indeed be complex and interesting and beyond redemption.. But an antagonist cant be complex and interesting and completely insane / possessed.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 12 décembre 2013 - 09:45 .

[Ieldra]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...
Should that really apply to EVERY antagonist, though? At some point, the player will (or at least should) encounter one or more that just aren't worth such musings.

I think an antagonist could be incredibly complex and interesting, but also completely beyond redemption.

No, it shouldn't. Some antagonists just make sense as purely evil, like the Archdemons. It's just too overused.

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here we come again to the matter of thematic messages I detest. There's a not so subtle difference between "Don't pursue power at the cost of your soul" and "Don't pursue power because it will cost you your soul". There's too much of the latter in these insane antagonists. As such, the magisters' attempt to breach the Golden City was, from my point of view, an admirable untertaking. What made them evil was the blood sacrifice used to get the magical power. Yet, Chantry ideology paints the attempt as such as the "original sin". Thankfully, I don't have to agree with the Chantry in this, but I would detest it if the story itself started to take up the message.

I think the overuse of ancient evils resulting in insane enemies is sending a thematic message promoting a hidebound mentality of never exploring the unknown and always sticking to your inherited nature, rather than of being careful with new powers because they can be dangerous to others and to yourself.  

Ha, this is why I always let Merrill fix the Eluvian. It's shame that's apparently going to lead to something bad... again. Because, yah know, wanting knowledge is bad.

Indeed. My main Hawkes always help Merrill, although I don't think something bad will result, if only because she doesn't fix it in the end. The knowledge she seeks is destroyed with the demon, if he ever had it. Too bad really. Rediscovering the secret of magical long-range communication would be a great achievement, and the story should treat it that way. Instead we get Marethari's "It was meant to be lost".

Is it any wonder that I'm occasionally tempted to accuse Bioware's writers of luddism?

[esper]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

One thing that really concerns me about Dragon Age Inquisition is the writing team dehumanizing the antagonist again like they did with Meredith.
When you give the villain motivations and reasons for their actions like with Loghain doing what he did for the sake of Ferelden's security it makes for a good antagonist who to some can even be sympathetic and agreeable and if not this they at least make for a good well written antagonist.
Meredith was like this at well up until a certain point where we had the whole "Red Lyrium just made her crazy" when this happens everything just sort of falls apart and you dont really care anymore, your just there to kill the crazy lady and w/e. Same with the Saren and the Reapers its not good, ME would have been so much better if Saren was simply a rogue spectre making a power play or something.
So please stop making your antagonists crazy, possessed and brainwashed. Because someone like Loghain is so so much better =D

..... sorry he sacerficed half his army, his king, just because he thought he was smarter than the darkspawn. Made him an instint monster, then he tried to lay ALL the blame on the grey wardens as if they assassinated him. I seriously wonder how he kept his troops under his command with a stuiped lie of, "I saved you from the grey warden's" line. If I where a soilder I would have deserited the army almost on the spot.

Meridth did have "motivations and reasons" for her actions bloodmages where abound and she was protecting the people of Kirkwall from mages.

The problem with your agruments is that they where honest to god losing there humanity, with Meridth the red lyrium was taking over, with Saren and the Reapers he was willingly turning himself into a husk. He was losing what made him "human"

So in reality its a good anology or maybe even an allegory, considering technology is slowly coming to the point where we will be able to augment our bodies to a degree, That maybe by adding things to one body in the name of "Power" we lose our souls.

So really its a story telling methiod to covay that the pursuit of "Power" should not be done at the cost of ones soul. Which I think many polititions fail to grasp to this very day.

And here we come again to the matter of thematic messages I detest. There's a not so subtle difference between "Don't pursue power at the cost of your soul" and "Don't pursue power because it will cost you your soul". There's too much of the latter in these insane antagonists. As such, the magisters' attempt to breach the Golden City was, from my point of view, an admirable untertaking. What made them evil was the blood sacrifice used to get the magical power. Yet, Chantry ideology paints the attempt as such as the "original sin". Thankfully, I don't have to agree with the Chantry in this, but I would detest it if the story itself started to take up the message.

I think the overuse of ancient evils resulting in insane enemies is sending a thematic message promoting a hidebound mentality of never exploring the unknown and always sticking to your inherited nature, rather than of being careful with new powers because they can be dangerous to others and to yourself.  

I just want to comment on the quoted and say that is just not bioware, that is 80 percent of western stories. People seeking knowlegde, power or are just ambitious are evil. It is sad. And I agree with your view of the magisters. Had their been a way to breach the golden city without the bloodshed of the innocent I would not fault them for the attempt. Sadly it seems we are moving towards they were tricked by the old gods.

I personally destest any ancient evils and goods. There is a sad tendency to instead of learning from the past and expanding on its ideas, to just rely on and outright steal from ancient civilasitions, never mind that those civilications were... well ancient and the worlds should have moved far past them in terms of power and knowlegde.

[fchopin]

No more zombies and indoctrinated rubbish.

[Sidney]

Irencicus and Malek weren't indoctrinated....but they were just bad. Those were about as flat a pair of villians as you could get...and the games were still good. Did anyone finish those games and think, gosh I wish I had more empathy for Malek?

Meredith and TIM were brainwashed but still weren't as flat as Malek - so more depth <> a better game. Hell, both of them had motivations that were understandable and maybe even reasonable. Their brainwashings didn't make them some giggling moron but just variations on their own personalities. Does anyone fail to see how TIM's views took just a touch of tweaking by Indoctrination to make him do what he does? I mean really in his mind he's still doing what he's always done which is what is so beautiful about it. Meredith isn't as well done but the idol doesn't make her suddenly go from good to bad, she's a templar, she's suspicious of the mages and when the mages do something really bad, well she doesn't even need the idol to explain her actions in the game only to explain how she becomes Robo-Merdith the boss fight.

Loghain might as well have been indoctrinated by the Darkspawn because his actions are pretty much exactly like TIM's where he is fighting to wrong war. The thing is without indoctrination his actions make no flipping sense and is why the more I played DAO the more I came to hate him as an adversary. Yes, he has deeper motivation but they make no sense. I just assume he is actually crazy bad because he's fiddling away about a fictitious Orleansian "invasion" while his kingdom burns and being concerned about this not being a "true" blight even in the face of that reality.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

There are no villains as well written in fiction than tragic ones. And a villain cannot be tragic without humanity. Another faulty error by many writers is lack of complexity in their villains.

Unfortunately, both the archdemon and Meredith fails as villains (But not as challenges, monsters and opposition - or in the lore department) due to the lack of complexity, dialogue and failure to give deep personal feeling into wanting to defeat or even save them.

However DA:O had redemtion in Arl Howe and Loghain as you pointed out.

I sincerely hope the writers of Dragon age doesent do the:

Big dangerous monster.
Cant talk to it.
Only outcome is through battle.

I love challenging boss battles. But main villains needs to have some tragedy or human aspect to go from good to great or even fantastic. And they need complexity. My main judgment on the quality of an RPG lies in the same judgment I lie on a good book. How well written is the antagonist.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I thought Merediths motivation in DA2 was pretty clear, she got the Idol and went insane, can't be more clearer than that.

[Hey]

im fairly certain i like you, original poster

[TeamLexana]

I wouldn't mind if they went the B2 route and just made the bad guy, a bad guy, period. One that we love to hate. One that is SATISFYING to kill the living hell out of.

[Magdalena11]

I don't think dehumanized would be how I would describe Meredith. On certain conversation paths, she reveals that her sister was a mage who became an abomination, which explains her prejudice against mages. She gains power during the 6 years of acts 1 & 2. On the viscount's death, she steps into the power vacuum since the chantry has a history of involving itself in Kirkwall politics anyway. It's only when she gets complete power and a red lyrium idol that she goes unhinged. I'd say situation allowed her own natural weaknesses to turn her into a monster, which sounds very human.

Orsino is a little tougher. I saw an interview discussing the development of DA2 and they tried to portray him as a Disney-type villain physically. The note from "O" that Quentin received shows he was not squeaky-clean on the concept of blood magic initially. That he eventually resorts to one of the more horrific ways to gain extra power is an example of weakness in the face of temptation, again, very human.

I would have like to have seen more of Meredith & Orsino's backstories, but I didn't think they were comic book fodder at all. We don't know anything about the source of the veil tears or who or what is pulling the strings politically for the world to fall apart so human motivation might not apply. The archdemon was being an archdemon, after all. It never was human so it shouldn't have human motivation. If you want to consider Loghain the villain of DAO, pride is a very human motivation.

[sylvanaerie]

 For me, the real villian of Origins was Loghain, which is why I can only relate to why someone would recruit and like him on an intellectual level, but not an emotional one.  The Archdemon was more like a 'force of nature' and 'antagonistic', but not in any way relatable no more so than any environmental conflict would be, like a hurricane or earthquake.  Hence, why I found the game after the landsmeet so anti-climatic.  Loghain was barking mad with paranoia and hatred (though it was understandable) no more or less so than Meredith was (again, understandably).  The red lyrium didn't create a problem in her brain, it was already there to begin with, it just made it worse.

Howe's delightfully uncomplicated power-mad ambition made for a wonderfully relatable trait to his villiany.  Branka's ambition to bring a new age to her people coloring her obsession made her relatable as well for me.  Doesn't mean any of these make it out alive in my playthroughs, but I can relate to them.

At least that's how I saw things, and played it out in my head.

These are, of course, just my opinion, and in no way should be an endorsement of either characters, just stating and observation here.

Frankly, I'd rather they keep to the trend of barking mad villians as long as they make them characters I can see doing this or that for a reason, even a poor one, rather than just random slaughter for slaughter's sake. 

[Ieldra]

esper wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

And here we come again to the matter of thematic messages I detest. There's a not so subtle difference between "Don't pursue power at the cost of your soul" and "Don't pursue power because it will cost you your soul". There's too much of the latter in these insane antagonists. As such, the magisters' attempt to breach the Golden City was, from my point of view, an admirable untertaking. What made them evil was the blood sacrifice used to get the magical power. Yet, Chantry ideology paints the attempt as such as the "original sin". Thankfully, I don't have to agree with the Chantry in this, but I would detest it if the story itself started to take up the message.

I think the overuse of ancient evils resulting in insane enemies is sending a thematic message promoting a hidebound mentality of never exploring the unknown and always sticking to your inherited nature, rather than of being careful with new powers because they can be dangerous to others and to yourself.  

I just want to comment on the quoted and say that is just not bioware, that is 80 percent of western stories. People seeking knowlegde, power or are just ambitious are evil. It is sad. And I agree with your view of the magisters. Had their been a way to breach the golden city without the bloodshed of the innocent I would not fault them for the attempt. Sadly it seems we are moving towards they were tricked by the old gods.

It's not the worst thing that could've happened. At least there is a reason beyond "This is what naturally happens when you attempt something ambitious". Being tricked doesn't send a thematic message beyond "there are people smarter than you".
Also, yes, this theme that knowledge, power and ambition is evil is all too present in western stories. I don't know if it is different in other cultures, but I blame, in part, a religious tradition that places too much value on obedience. 

I personally destest any ancient evils and goods. There is a sad tendency to instead of learning from the past and expanding on its ideas, to just rely on and outright steal from ancient civilasitions, never mind that those civilications were... well ancient and the worlds should have moved far past them in terms of power and knowlegde.

That distinction is a rather subtle one. I think it's excusable for fantasy worlds where there's no intrinsic theme of advancement in the story, and it's not at all a problem where - as in the case of Arlathan - some older cultures were signficantly more advanced than the present ones. Functional eluvians, just as they were, would be a great advantage for any culture of present-day Thedas.
Also, we see in Asunder Rhys' assertion that we need to look at things with new eyes and question established wisdom, and I hope this will have some impact on DAI's story. If DAI takes this theme up, it will have the potential to be awesome. There's more than one character who makes hints in that direction.