434 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

David7204 wrote...
My experience has been that people seriously tend to exaggerate the ambiguity of villains supposedly like this.

Gus Fring is not 'ambiguous.' Caesar's Legion is not 'ambiguous.'

From what I've seen from Gus he's pretty much a psychopath. A psychopath with a beautiful, beautiful mind that makes me tear up when I think about it but crazy. Evil crazy. I'd agree with you on the Legion too BUT only because it was a war machine, it didn't translate into any kind of society really. But if it did and it caused widespread stability and safety within its domain... Of course it's still wrong that that kind of stability would be built on slavery but that's what ambiguous means innit?

[David7204]

A "beautiful, beautiful mind"...?

Why don't you elaborate on that for me?

[Fredward]

David7204 wrote...
A "beautiful, beautiful mind"...?

Why don't you elaborate on that for me?

Evil, manipulative mastermind psychopaths are hawt?

[David7204]

I really don't think I'd call him a 'mastermind.' All his intimidation of Walter did was get him (Walter) dead set on killing him instead of putting him in line.

Making Jesse feel like a hero was a good stroke, I admit.

[Fredward]

David7204 wrote...
I really don't think I'd call him a 'mastermind.' All his intimidation of Walter did was get him (Walter) dead set on killing him instead of putting him in line.

Making Jesse feel like a hero was a good stroke, I admit.

Eh, I'm still in season 4. And yeah I was talking about him exploiting Jesse's insecurities and also the way he plays on Walter's justification for doing what he does, the whole "family man" thing. The way he puts kids stuff in his house when he invites Walt over for instance. Gus having kids? Please. Walt's a genius and can thus plan for a whole lot of contingencies but he doesn't get people like Gus does.

[Augustei]

David7204 wrote...

My experience has been that people seriously tend to exaggerate the ambiguity of villains supposedly like this.

Gus Fring is not 'ambiguous.' Caesar's Legion is not 'ambiguous.'

Can't say I agree about the Legion, We know little of their society outside their millitary and we dont get any insight of how things are in his cities back east.
The legion is more than some simple "evil" faction, some of the things Caeser himself has to say makes alot of sense

[Lotion Soronarr]

DarthLaxian wrote...

i hated this plot device (hell, i would have loved it if say Meredith went after that red-lyrium stuff because she knew of it's power and wanted to use it and she became more fanatical after getting it (nothing against substances influencing someones mind/personality - but never use that as the reason a person is a certain way, meaning: if someone was fanatical, they have been that way before using drug-xyz etc.))

You know what they say about blanket statement? They are bad.

There are outside factors that can compeltely frak someones mind up, so I really have no problem with it on a conceptual level. Only on the implementation level.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Dragon Age needs one of these

Kefka was actually a very deep character despite his "Destroy the world attitude". Because his wanting to destroy the world stemmed from a nihilistic view that the world is meaningless. This is something one can easily relate to. If there is no god or purpose of life, does it have value? If the world is finite and all life suffers in it like a prison. Isnt ending the world the good choice? A non-existant world cant suffer. Despite his malevolence, can destroying a world in which evil rules - be considered evil in itself? Morals as a human construct (Nietzsche). Kefka was a great villain, despite his "DESTROOOY" attitude because his reasons to wanting to destroy the world can be looked at from such philosophical perspectives.

Deep? You kidding me? FF has the depth of a dried-up puddle.

No, I don't find Kefka deep or smart at all. The "world is evil, I'll destroy it to end all sufering" motivation is, and always was, a bunch of hogwash. Characters like that never bother to ask anyone if they would prefer to die, they take it upon themselves to decide for everyone. Not only that, their goals are utterly redicolous. "Destroy the universe".

It's the "build a Dyson Spehere out of matches" level of crazy.
Of course, in such stories it always turns out that the universe is build like a house of cards and there is a really simpel way to destroy all of existence. Because frak stability.

[TEWR]

Deep? You kidding me? FF has the depth of a dried-up puddle.

*says a person who has most likely not played FFXII*

[Star fury]

Someone like this would be awesome. But I doubt that Bioware writers can make a three dimensional villain with credible motivation. Especially with the demon invasion plot.

Modifié par Star fury, 13 décembre 2013 - 11:09 .

[nightcobra]

Jowy and Luca Blight from suikoden 2 are the villain types i'd like to see in dragon age.

jowy, the protagonist's best friend throughout the whole game even when you're sending your armies against each other, both with the same goal (peace) but both with radically different methods of achieving it.

and luca blight, the definition of a complete monster in human form, even at his final moments he gloats stating that he is perfect, death incarnate, that he killed thousands and that thousands were needed just to kill this one man.

[Ieldra]

@Star fury:
Who is that?

[Icy Magebane]

Red lyrium ruined Meredith as a character. If the Red Templars are any indication, it looks like it'll be ruining more than that in the future. I am not a fan of mystical gemstones somehow controlling the minds of people and turning them into killers. It didn't work for Bartrand either... I liked him better when he was just a greedy SOB who would kill his own brother for money. The worst part is that DA2 had lots of great villains... the Arishok, Quentin, Gascard DuPuis... hell, even minor characters like Idunna had some good characterization. Red lyrium just screwed it all up... Meredith would have been a better villain without it if only for the fact that she would not have attacked people who supported Annulment. The same goes for Orsino, who should never have attacked mage-supporters. DA2 just... All I can really say is that the last Act had some serious problems.

[Star fury]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Who is that?

Loki from Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[leaguer of one]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Deep? You kidding me? FF has the depth of a dried-up puddle.

*says a person who has most likely not played FFXII*

YOU'RE KIDDING ME. ff12 plot wise and gameplay wise was a mess. You want FF with depth, look at ff6.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 13 décembre 2013 - 11:15 .

[leaguer of one]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Red lyrium ruined Meredith as a character. If the Red Templars are any indication, it looks like it'll be ruining more than that in the future. I am not a fan of mystical gemstones somehow controlling the minds of people and turning them into killers. It didn't work for Bartrand either... I liked him better when he was just a greedy SOB who would kill his own brother for money. The worst part is that DA2 had lots of great villains... the Arishok, Quentin, Gascard DuPuis... hell, even minor characters like Idunna had some good characterization. Red lyrium just screwed it all up... Meredith would have been a better villain without it if only for the fact that she would not have attacked people who supported Annulment. The same goes for Orsino, who should never have attacked mage-supporters. DA2 just... All I can really say is that the last Act had some serious problems.

First of all it'a not mind control. Red lyrium has to be sentient to  do that. Say Meredith was mind controlled is like saying crack mindcontrols the people who used it. It effected her mind and she became insane. It made her metally sick.
I don't think it messed up her character wise.

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Dragon Age needs one of these

Kefka was actually a very deep character despite his "Destroy the world attitude". Because his wanting to destroy the world stemmed from a nihilistic view that the world is meaningless. This is something one can easily relate to. If there is no god or purpose of life, does it have value? If the world is finite and all life suffers in it like a prison. Isnt ending the world the good choice? A non-existant world cant suffer. Despite his malevolence, can destroying a world in which evil rules - be considered evil in itself? Morals as a human construct (Nietzsche). Kefka was a great villain, despite his "DESTROOOY" attitude because his reasons to wanting to destroy the world can be looked at from such philosophical perspectives.

Deep? You kidding me? FF has the depth of a dried-up puddle.

No, I don't find Kefka deep or smart at all. The "world is evil, I'll destroy it to end all sufering" motivation is, and always was, a bunch of hogwash. Characters like that never bother to ask anyone if they would prefer to die, they take it upon themselves to decide for everyone. Not only that, their goals are utterly redicolous. "Destroy the universe".

It's the "build a Dyson Spehere out of matches" level of crazy.
Of course, in such stories it always turns out that the universe is build like a house of cards and there is a really simpel way to destroy all of existence. Because frak stability.

"The "world is evil, I'll destroy it to end all sufering" motivation is, and always was, a bunch of hogwash. "

That was not his motivation. The man was just crazy. It like having th Joker with magical powers.

And Yes, ff6, a game that has a character attempt to cummit suicide, has depth.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 13 décembre 2013 - 11:20 .

[Sidney]

Star fury wrote...

Someone like this would be awesome. But I doubt that Bioware writers can make a three dimensional villain with credible motivation. Especially with the demon invasion plot.

Wait, you think any character from Thor is 3D....wow. The only thing deep about Loki is the pit he's dug himself chewing scenery in that film - I think he and Hopkins are in a competiution to see who can ham it up more to be honest. Their efforts are the saving graces of those films, don't get wrong, but I'd not go so far as to say "deep".

[Sidney]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Red lyrium ruined Meredith as a character. If the Red Templars are any indication, it looks like it'll be ruining more than that in the future. I am not a fan of mystical gemstones somehow controlling the minds of people and turning them into killers. It didn't work for Bartrand either... I liked him better when he was just a greedy SOB who would kill his own brother for money. The worst part is that DA2 had lots of great villains... the Arishok, Quentin, Gascard DuPuis... hell, even minor characters like Idunna had some good characterization. Red lyrium just screwed it all up... Meredith would have been a better villain without it if only for the fact that she would not have attacked people who supported Annulment. The same goes for Orsino, who should never have attacked mage-supporters. DA2 just... All I can really say is that the last Act had some serious problems.

It didn't control her mind really though. I mean she wasn't as off her nut as Saren and no one gripes about his mind controlly thing. What she does in the entire game makes perfect sense if you eliminate red lyrium - it isn't like being suspicious of mages and wanting to nullify the circle when they blow up the Chantry are out of character for her.
The only thing red lyrium messed up was the final battle where it was used a power source to do all the crazy crap that they did to create a boss fight.

[Vortex13]

The real question is, how will the Veil being torn affect the world? I mean obviously the fact that demons are walking around is a big deal, but is this something that is a threat to the entire world?

The reason I ask is because a universal threat would, realistically, be dealt with universally. People want antagonists that have a reasonable motivation to what they are doing, but how is a person that opposes the player in their quest to save the world, going to NOT be de-humanized?

What rational individual would try and fight the people trying to stop the world threatening problem?

[grumpymooselion]

A complex and understandable antagonist who is a pain to deal with, not simply because their views differ from yours, or because "they're evil" but because they 'might just be right' is an important key to a villain in my mind.

"What if they're not wrong?"

"What am I really fighting for?"

"Are my means any better?"

"Are my ends really any different?"

"Maybe I should be on their side."

Are all things, in my mind, that a good villain should bring to my mind.

[Lord Raijin]

Janan, Morrigan indicated on the trailer that you can either stand against it or lead this world into a bitter end. I suppose this means that you yourself can become the antagnoist, and not the protagnoist.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 13 décembre 2013 - 02:57 .

[Sigma Tauri]

No...you can have a guy explain his motivations to you, but well-written dialogue options will always point out why the antagonist's approach and conviction is wrong in the end.

[Blooddrunk1004]

Most protagonists in Bioware are always insane, possessed, demonic and etc.
They did made more protagonists like Loghain though, those two are Master Li and Darth Malak.
I was hoping Illusive Man would also become one of those until he went full retard in ME3.

But yeah i agree with OP, the antagonists who have motivations, reasons and believe are IMO automaticaly better than the ones who are controled by some evil force. Since what DA:I looks like a demon invasion im 100% sure main villain will be another demon or something.

[Nightdragon8]

leaguer of one wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Red lyrium ruined Meredith as a character. If the Red Templars are any indication, it looks like it'll be ruining more than that in the future. I am not a fan of mystical gemstones somehow controlling the minds of people and turning them into killers. It didn't work for Bartrand either... I liked him better when he was just a greedy SOB who would kill his own brother for money. The worst part is that DA2 had lots of great villains... the Arishok, Quentin, Gascard DuPuis... hell, even minor characters like Idunna had some good characterization. Red lyrium just screwed it all up... Meredith would have been a better villain without it if only for the fact that she would not have attacked people who supported Annulment. The same goes for Orsino, who should never have attacked mage-supporters. DA2 just... All I can really say is that the last Act had some serious problems.

First of all it'a not mind control. Red lyrium has to be sentient to  do that. Say Meredith was mind controlled is like saying crack mindcontrols the people who used it. It effected her mind and she became insane. It made her metally sick.
I don't think it messed up her character wise.

.... a fantasy setting without some sort of artifact that can control your mind or warp it to make you go insane... that would be a let down to the series.

Its like having a SciFI without at least one clone attacking the hero. The scifi gods demand it.