434 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

leaguer of one wrote...

3.Added, the Jedi were in between a rock and a hard place on that issue. It was ether doing something morally questionable or have the galexy taken over by a tyrannt. Hard to call foul on this when the intagater was never play by the rules from the start.

Being used doesn't feel better just because it's "for a good cause".  How many tyrants have used the same excuse?

[leaguer of one]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

3.Added, the Jedi were in between a rock and a hard place on that issue. It was ether doing something morally questionable or have the galexy taken over by a tyrannt. Hard to call foul on this when the intagater was never play by the rules from the start.

Being used doesn't feel better just because it's "for a good cause".  How many tyrants have used the same excuse?

How far would tyranny gone if they did not do this? A tyrant would do this on anyone and everyone if he could just for his want of control. A state of order like the Jedi Order did this becasue thay had no other choice. Big difference. Added, Reven had no ego left. It was ether giving him a new one or being a vegatable. At worse, they could of made him a puppet.

[leaguer of one]

Sasie wrote...

When it comes to SWTOR arn't the Jedi suppose to be morally superior? Coming out ahead compared to the Sith doesn't exactly set the standards very high. On top of that it can be argued that Revan isn't the only one the Jedi council wronged, they also took advantage of Bastila by sending her off alone with a former Sith Lord without any guidance at all. 

Besides I'm sure the Jedi could have healed Revan without giving her new memories if they really wanted to. Plenty of people have had amnesia and there was no need to replace the damaged memories with new ones except they wanted to try to dig out information from Revan's mind.

Revan might have no right to complain considering all the bad thing she had done in her life but Bastila got screwed over by all of this as well. She was also innocent yet the council used her just the same. Desperate times calls for some extreme deeds personally I think the Jedi would have no right to complain either if it all had fallen apart and came back to haunt them in the end.

"Besides I'm sure the Jedi could have healed Revan without giving her new memories if they really wanted to. Plenty of people have had amnesia and there was no need to replace the damaged memories with new ones except they wanted to try to dig out information from Revan's mind."
 
He was a vegateble.

[KainD]

leaguer of one wrote...
How far would tyranny gone if they did not do this? A tyrant would do this on anyone and everyone if he could just for his want of control. A state of order like the Jedi Order did this becasue thay had no other choice. Big difference. Added, Reven had no ego left. It was ether giving him a new one or being a vegatable. At worse, they could of made him a puppet.

Zero difference. Jedi order answered tyranny with tyranny. 

[Pyce]

I found the Jedi in KoToR to be the bad guys as well. Erasing someone and giving them a false self. Just like the gray Jedi (Jolee Bindo) told you that the council may not have been so good. I felt betrayed and used by the council. They were using Revan as a tool.

What's up with the Jedi mind trick? You know forcing someone to do something against their will. IS that supposed to be good guy powers? Heck even in the movies the guy selling death sticks might be selling them to terminally ill people in sever pain and about to die. The guy selling death sticks may have been feeding orphans with the money for all we know.

[leaguer of one]

KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
How far would tyranny gone if they did not do this? A tyrant would do this on anyone and everyone if he could just for his want of control. A state of order like the Jedi Order did this becasue thay had no other choice. Big difference. Added, Reven had no ego left. It was ether giving him a new one or being a vegatable. At worse, they could of made him a puppet.

Zero difference. Jedi order answered tyranny with tyranny. 

How is that Tyranny? The person there mind they rebuilt clearly has the freedom of choice. The fact that the person can turn into a sith agein proves that it's not tyranny. They did not even mind wipe him/her, they were alredy a vegateble when they found them, they just built a new ego for them so they can live.

[leaguer of one]

Pyce wrote...

I found the Jedi in KoToR to be the bad guys as well. Erasing someone and giving them a false self. Just like the gray Jedi (Jolee Bindo) told you that the council may not have been so good. I felt betrayed and used by the council. They were using Revan as a tool.

What's up with the Jedi mind trick? You know forcing someone to do something against their will. IS that supposed to be good guy powers? Heck even in the movies the guy selling death sticks might be selling them to terminally ill people in sever pain and about to die. The guy selling death sticks may have been feeding orphans with the money for all we know.

But they did not erase his mind. He was a vegateble. They just gave him a new ego. Added, the fact you can join the sith nd lead them in Kotor proves that it's not mind control.

[Pyce]

leaguer of one wrote...


But they did not erase his mind. He was a vegateble. They just gave him a new ego. Added, the fact you can join the sith nd lead them in Kotor proves that it's not mind control.

Chris Avellone hated Lucas' "mortallity" of the force and used KoToR 2 to express his misgivings about it. The unpassonite loving of a cold calautaling Jedi controlling peoples minds.

[leaguer of one]

Pyce wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...


But they did not erase his mind. He was a vegateble. They just gave him a new ego. Added, the fact you can join the sith nd lead them in Kotor proves that it's not mind control.

Chris Avellone hated Lucas' "mortallity" of the force and used KoToR 2 to express his misgivings about it. The unpassonite loving of a cold calautaling Jedi controlling peoples minds.

The fact that you can join the Sith and turn on the Jedi proves that there is no mind control on him. I'm not saying the Jedi has no faults but they are far from Tyrannts.

[KainD]

leaguer of one wrote...
How is that Tyranny? The person there mind they rebuilt clearly has the freedom of choice. The fact that the person can turn into a sith agein proves that it's not tyranny. They did not even mind wipe him/her, they were alredy a vegateble when they found them, they just built a new ego for them so they can live.

It's better to just die, than lose yourself and be used by others. 

[leaguer of one]

KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
How is that Tyranny? The person there mind they rebuilt clearly has the freedom of choice. The fact that the person can turn into a sith agein proves that it's not tyranny. They did not even mind wipe him/her, they were alredy a vegateble when they found them, they just built a new ego for them so they can live.

It's better to just die, than lose yourself and be used by others. 

If you're  a vegatable you no longer can make that choice. Sorry, but once you're ego is gone, you're dead as an indavisual. The body is just hardware the indavisual travels in. They just put a new driver in that hardware.

[Jorji Costava]

Concerning Revan's mind-wipe by the Jedi council, there's at least some question as to whether or not even the earlier Dark Side version of Revan constituted the character's "authentic self," since there's a long-running idea in the Star Wars universe that being consumed by the Dark Side deprives you of exactly that. Heck, in the old Star Wars d20 game, there was a mechanic whereby if you acquired too many Dark Side points, your character would eventually become an NPC under the control of the GM.

I'd say that Revan's "real self" is whichever one you choose to be during the course of the game, which is sorta the whole point. You could almost say that KOTOR is, in its own way, a subversion of the whole idea of a pre-written protagonist.

[Sylvius the Mad]

leaguer of one wrote...

At worse, they could of made him a puppet.

They arguably tried to do just that.

Again, I'm not saying this is the only valid interpretation of KotOR's story.  I'm saying that there isn't just one valid interpretation of KotOR's story, and I'm making that point by advancing such an interpretation that clearly isn't the one most people see.

And that narrative flexibility is a strength of the genre.  All CRPGs should strive for that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EntropicAngel wrote...

While I agree about TIM himself, "DERPERUS" was DERPERUS long before TIM existed in the ME-verse (that is, ME1). They've always been portrayed as doing utterly retarded things. ME2 just put that on hold for the main plot.

What?
Cerberus had almost zero presence in ME1.

Outside of that one mission with an assasinated admiral, and the Akze backstory, there was nothig more to it.

We had a few of their minor outposts that you could destroy, but I dont' see how that sez "derperus".

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

While I agree about TIM himself, "DERPERUS" was DERPERUS long before TIM existed in the ME-verse (that is, ME1). They've always been portrayed as doing utterly retarded things. ME2 just put that on hold for the main plot.

What?
Cerberus had almost zero presence in ME1.

Outside of that one mission with an assasinated admiral, and the Akze backstory, there was nothig more to it.

We had a few of their minor outposts that you could destroy, but I dont' see how that sez "derperus".

There was the cloned rachni colonies, the thorian colonies, their new outposts we had to deal with, and no explination or thought up reason they were doing any of these tests.

Admiral Kahoku himself was an example of derperus, rather then simply put poison in his morning coffee and making it look like natural causes, they kidnap him, make him fight a rachni to the death, then inject him with a leathal substance leaving an easily noticable track mark on his arm, as is expalined in the textbox when you find his body. That entire thing screams moron group of mustache twirlers.

Then you have those minor outposts that all seem to have been made and being done because lolreasons, and are surprised when their minimal surveliance and security operations fall to crap.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I honestly don't recall.
Probably because I wasn't doing Cerberus-related side missions in ME1, since I found them boring.

That said I VASTLY prefer the ME2 Cerberus (partially, because it tends to swing around in ME2 too) than ME1 and ME3.

[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I honestly don't recall.
Probably because I wasn't doing Cerberus-related side missions in ME1, since I found them boring.

That said I VASTLY prefer the ME2 Cerberus (partially, because it tends to swing around in ME2 too) than ME1 and ME3.

This is largely why I dispute those who think that ME1 Cerberus was retconned in ME2. Even if I thought that was true, Cerberus was such a bland organization in the original compared to our interactions with TIM.

[JoltDealer]

Actually, I think Merrill should have been the villain of DA2. If she had become a villain, her journey into darkness would've made much more sense than Meredith, who was extremely close-minded and was driven even more insane by Red Lyrium.

Getting to the point of this thread, Bioware once referred to a quote that I personally like. "The key to creating a great antagonist is figuring out what makes him the protagonist in his own story." Meredith seems like the worst example of this, but Loghain or Saren are the best.

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I honestly don't recall.
Probably because I wasn't doing Cerberus-related side missions in ME1, since I found them boring.

That said I VASTLY prefer the ME2 Cerberus (partially, because it tends to swing around in ME2 too) than ME1 and ME3.

That's the thing. Cerberus in ME2 was clearly trying to manipulate Shepard. They are just used the excuse of moral grey to justify their actions.

[leaguer of one]

Crimson Sound wrote...

Actually, I think Merrill should have been the villain of DA2. If she had become a villain, her journey into darkness would've made much more sense than Meredith, who was extremely close-minded and was driven even more insane by Red Lyrium.

Getting to the point of this thread, Bioware once referred to a quote that I personally like. "The key to creating a great antagonist is figuring out what makes him the protagonist in his own story." Meredith seems like the worst example of this, but Loghain or Saren are the best.

Meredith is that case as well. She and Loghain are near identiacal in character. It just that she went crazy from a rock.

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

While I agree about TIM himself, "DERPERUS" was DERPERUS long before TIM existed in the ME-verse (that is, ME1). They've always been portrayed as doing utterly retarded things. ME2 just put that on hold for the main plot.

What?
Cerberus had almost zero presence in ME1.

Outside of that one mission with an assasinated admiral, and the Akze backstory, there was nothig more to it.

We had a few of their minor outposts that you could destroy, but I dont' see how that sez "derperus".

The rachni, the mission when they bplayed with reaper equimpment, the experiments they did with exogeni with the thorian thrawls....

[Star fury]

Crimson Sound wrote...

Actually, I think Merrill should have been the villain of DA2. If she had become a villain, her journey into darkness would've made much more sense than Meredith, who was extremely close-minded and was driven even more insane by Red Lyrium.

Getting to the point of this thread, Bioware once referred to a quote that I personally like. "The key to creating a great antagonist is figuring out what makes him the protagonist in his own story." Meredith seems like the worst example of this, but Loghain or Saren are the best.

I think that is the brand new accusation of Merrill.

[leaguer of one]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

At worse, they could of made him a puppet.

They arguably tried to do just that.

Again, I'm not saying this is the only valid interpretation of KotOR's story.  I'm saying that there isn't just one valid interpretation of KotOR's story, and I'm making that point by advancing such an interpretation that clearly isn't the one most people see.

And that narrative flexibility is a strength of the genre.  All CRPGs should strive for that.

You're interparatation does not hve a stong ground to argue on. Saying the narrative is flexibile is not a pro to your point. There realy is nothing in the story that makes them the antagonist.

Saying they tryed to manipulate the mc does not make them the antagonist.

[Fast Jimmy]

Saying they tryed to manipulate the mc does not make them the antagonist.

Actually, manipulating and working against the main character (protagonist) is the very DEFINITION of an antagonist. Someone who works against the protagonist. They don't have to be evil... or even bad. They just have to be a person, group or force that works against the protagonist. A freaking storm can be an antagonist - that doesn't make weather evil.

[leaguer of one]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Saying they tryed to manipulate the mc does not make them the antagonist.

Actually, manipulating and working against the main character (protagonist) is the very DEFINITION of an antagonist. Someone who works against the protagonist. They don't have to be evil... or even bad. They just have to be a person, group or force that works against the protagonist. A freaking storm can be an antagonist - that doesn't make weather evil.

Please, plenty of allies to the mc in stories manipulate the mc as well , so no that not the defination. As for work against, sorry but no. They don't. They are the one that even help the mc get started.

They don't do anything an antagonist would do outside some manipulation and even allies do that in stories.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 décembre 2013 - 07:12 .