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The idea of the endings is... discomforting


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#1
favoritehookeronthecitadel

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That the fate of the galaxy should rely on one person. Not that it happened, but the way the writers presented it made it seem like they supported this, that Shepard trully is a godly figure that is destined to re-shape the entire galaxy, even just refuse the Catalyst's offer and blow it sky high. In the first 2 games, it's always kind of been a alluded that Shepard was a godly character destined to save the galaxy, like Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter.

But in the end, I think the writers threw the idea in our faces, pretty much saying "Shepard's a god. Do you see? Do you get it?"

I mean, this is why our society is mostly run by governments and multiple leaders, not just one person. Oh Shepard, you want to destroy the entire galaxy because you don't feel like making an actual choice. Well, good for you. Oh, the other 20 billion life forms might disagree with you, because, you know, they have families and have fought all this time to live, but you, you don't 'feel' like bowing to the Catalyst's demands, so let's all just die. Good for you.

The point being, I don't care how special Shepard was, they shouldn't be able to make a decision of that magnitude.

However, I understand the concept. Shepard has to make a choice. The entire game is about stopping the Reapers and preventing them from total annihilatoin of the universe. Basically, the structure behind this entire game is that it's a war between 2 sides, a chess game, and the Reapers are playing their pieces like you and your crew and everyone else. You have to make sacrafises in order to win a war. You choose how you're going to win, if you can win and if you have multiple choices. I'm not saying the endings shouldn't happen, or at least the choices you get, I'm saying it should NOT have been presented in the pariticular light it was in.

For example, if Bioware really wanted the endings to work, they should've made Shepard more sympathetic, having to bear these responsibilities on their shoulders without much time to decide. It would be nice if you could say something like, "I wish I didn't have to make this choice, but I do." The problem was lack of communication. We could tell it was a difficult decision, but we couldn't tell how difficult it was. They didn't make it sad and tragic enough, forceful and bitter, like they should have. The fact that after everything, Shepard still has to make an enormous sacrafise, no matter what ending. Instead of just limping towards it and blowing yourself up as piano music plays in the background, while a couple of soldiers look on in London and a the different species like the Krogan and Asari cheer in joy. We should've really understood the cost. 

For example, what doesn't work for me in the Destroy ending is that I wanted to see the Geth die and EDI die. It should've been dramatic, the reason the music was playing in the background, because after all, isn't that what's tragic and sad to begin with? We should've seen a glimpse of the Geth falling apart or dropping to the ground dead, maybe to the last geth crawling on the ground as it slowly shuts down. Or EDI dying in Joker's arms. That could've been a really beautiful scene, instead of just some offscreen demise and later barely mentioned because seeing cheering Krogan is more important. Even the EC monologue seemed a bit hypocrytical, with Hackett explaining how we could achieve anything if we all learned to work together, but it's still pretty much implying 'Oh yeah, the geth died, who cares.'

And then, my problem with Control and Synthesis is that they're too damn creepy and discomforting. And like I said before, it isn't that they HAPPENED, because they could've worked better if it was handled the correct way. It's the way the endings were presented in such a positive, this-is-the-way-things-should-be happily ever after. I won't pretend to know too much about the Control ending, as it's the one I've viewed and researched the least, but basically, what I get from it is that Shepard is this new Guardian and watcher of the galaxy. Isn't that a little creepy, in like, all the wrong ways? It's kind of implying a new religion, basically. And like the Sythesis ending, we don't see anyone disagreeing with what's happened, we just see everyone smiling and moving on with their lives like all is well. We don't see anyone saying, "Shepard should NOT be the guardian of the whole galaxy. Besides, that's not even the Shepard we know. What if he decides to kill us all? What if we can't trust him?"

There's no uncertainty, only pure, utter happiness and hope and reassuring comfort that this is the way. And yeah, maybe there are some that dissagreee with Shep's choices, but again, we don't see them. There comes a point where the audience work from what they see, not from what happens off screen. And what's presented to us are these 2 wholly Christian-esque endings that imply happiness, hope, and destiny, not the flawed decisions in an imperfect world. 

Synthesis is the worst offender, by far. Committing genetic rape, basically, and it's not presented as a sad, flawed, but wise decision, given the choices at hand, but as this perfect, happy, IMPROVEMENT of the galaxy as all of the surviving main characters we see smilling and bowing down to the Commander's grave. And some of EDI's dialogue is just really uncomfortable. " Now that we all have green eyes and better genetics, we can finally be nice to eachother and respect each species, it's not about anything we've earned or work towards. It's all about genetics! I am alive, and I'm not alone." The End. I mean, seriously. What EDI should be alluding to for this ending to be even remotely understandable is that one human should NOT be allowed to to change everything this way, they did it because they HAD NO CHOICE. But instead, we get a creepy monologue and everyone's happy. I feel like the writers are type of people that would stalk girls they like and fantasize about sneaking in their houses and getting them pregnant in their sleep, and then actually doing it and feeling happy with themselves.

Maybe, in fact, probably what the problem is that these endings should not have been endings at all. But since they were, what I'm saying is that for the most part, they're presented in the COMPLETELY wrong context than they should be.

Btw, I picked Destroy.

Modifié par favoritehookeronthecitadel, 12 décembre 2013 - 10:37 .


#2
Giga Drill BREAKER

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I disagree, Shepard is told to destory the reapers by his superiors and he only can unite the galaxy because they also want the Reapers destroyed, so if you destroy the reapers you are doing what everyone in the galaxy wants, anything else and you have a serious God complex.

#3
Michotic

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I have a hard time picking control because of NWN2.

#4
AlanC9

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DinoSteve wrote...

I disagree, Shepard is told to destory the reapers by his superiors and he only can unite the galaxy because they also want the Reapers destroyed, so if you destroy the reapers you are doing what everyone in the galaxy wants, anything else and you have a serious God complex.


Destroy would be doing what everyone in the galaxy wants, sure. But as usual, Shepard is the only one in the whole galaxy who actually knows what's really going on. Nobody else knows that there are other options besides Destroy and extinction. They don't even know that Destroy is real.

I'd insert some snark about how people want Shepard to just follow orders like a good little..... you know..... but I try not to Godwin threads before at least page 2.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 décembre 2013 - 03:31 .


#5
favoritehookeronthecitadel

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Well, Destroy is definitely the best ending, even though it has plenty of flaws. At least I can sleep at night after seeing it.

#6
sH0tgUn jUliA

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AlanC9 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I disagree, Shepard is told to destory the reapers by his superiors and he only can unite the galaxy because they also want the Reapers destroyed, so if you destroy the reapers you are doing what everyone in the galaxy wants, anything else and you have a serious God complex.


Destroy would be doing what everyone in the galaxy wants, sure. But as usual, Shepard is the only one in the whole galaxy who actually knows what's really going on. Nobody else knows that there are other options besides Destroy and extinction. They don't even know that Destroy is real.

I'd insert some snark about how people want Shepard to just follow orders like a good little..... you know..... but I try not to Godwin threads before at least page 2.


My first Shepard was a Communist and followed her orders.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 décembre 2013 - 06:49 .


#7
Vicious

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Shepard is the only one in the whole galaxy who actually knows what's really going on


This is what it comes down to. Shep has to make the choice because no one else made it that far. Maybe if Anderson survived his wounds, he would give his two cents, but he didn't, so it all comes down to you.

IMO the most satisfying trilogy-wise way to play the game is to get the lowest EMS so that the decision you made regarding the collector base actually makes a difference and comes back to reward you or bite you depending on how you feel,.

Modifié par Vicious, 12 décembre 2013 - 07:35 .


#8
Giga Drill BREAKER

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AlanC9 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I disagree, Shepard is told to destory the reapers by his superiors and he only can unite the galaxy because they also want the Reapers destroyed, so if you destroy the reapers you are doing what everyone in the galaxy wants, anything else and you have a serious God complex.


Destroy would be doing what everyone in the galaxy wants, sure. But as usual, Shepard is the only one in the whole galaxy who actually knows what's really going on. Nobody else knows that there are other options besides Destroy and extinction. They don't even know that Destroy is real.

I'd insert some snark about how people want Shepard to just follow orders like a good little..... you know..... but I try not to Godwin threads before at least page 2.

You'd have a point if there was only one faction giving you the orders and if you could take a poll of what everyone wants, but you don't so you have to go with what you know,  you know Reapers = extinction,  you know you have been ordered too destroy the reapers, you know the only reason you could raise the army you have is because they believe you will Destroy the reapers.  I don't see that the choice is all that difficult.

#9
KaiserShep

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Vicious wrote...

Shepard is the only one in the whole galaxy who actually knows what's really going on


This is what it comes down to. Shep has to make the choice because no one else made it that far. Maybe if Anderson survived his wounds, he would give his two cents, but he didn't, so it all comes down to you.

IMO the most satisfying trilogy-wise way to play the game is to get the lowest EMS so that the decision you made regarding the collector base actually makes a difference and comes back to reward you or bite you depending on how you feel,.


All those poor multiplayer addicts are left in the cold.

#10
Wayning_Star

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considering all the various Shepards out here in nah nah land, it's not really discomforting, that is like it's only ONE person in charge of the universe,etc. If you think about it, Shep has really little to do with the actualities of the system of events in ME3.
Kind of a puppet of nature really...Image IPB

#11
AlanC9

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DinoSteve wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Destroy would be doing what everyone in the galaxy wants, sure. But as usual, Shepard is the only one in the whole galaxy who actually knows what's really going on. Nobody else knows that there are other options besides Destroy and extinction. They don't even know that Destroy is real.

You'd have a point if there was only one faction giving you the orders and if you could take a poll of what everyone wants, but you don't so you have to go with what you know,  you know Reapers = extinction,  you know you have been ordered too destroy the reapers, you know the only reason you could raise the army you have is because they believe you will Destroy the reapers.  I don't see that the choice is all that difficult.


It doesn't matter how many factions there are. That just multiplies the ignorance.

#12
Rotward

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 Shepard is the biggest mary sue

#13
elrofrost

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I still think Control is the best ending. If you saved the Geth and if your Shepard was mostly paragon. In my last Shepard, he managed to save both the Geth and Quarians. And was mostly Paragon. I'd like to think he'd direct the Reapers to help repair the galaxy then disappear. Watching.. for maybe an AI that does pose a threat to all. Or some external force (from another galaxy) appears. Until then my Shepard would just stay out of the way.

I have picked Destroy when I toasted the Geth or my Shepard was a rat bastard on a mission. I wouldn't trust that SOB with Control. And that's the problem I have with the endings. The are really meaningless. Your Shepard could be the biggest back-stabbing SOB AND still get the same result. It's not the star-child I have issues with - ti's that everything you've done in all 3 games comes down to the same ending.

So I play the game now not for the end.. but for everything else. Now I just fire up the Happy Ending mod and don't even deal with it.

But back to the point of the OP.. Shepard himself states that he would never have done what he did alone. Multiple times in all 3 games he sings the praises of his crew, friends and allies. And in Control, he clearly states he'll never forget them. Ever.

Modifié par elrofrost, 13 décembre 2013 - 01:03 .


#14
Nightwriter

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That discomfort is an emotional response. I don't feel like the ending was created by a mind that was terribly emotion-oriented. I feel like it was created by a more detached thinker who wrote down what they thought seemed intellectually interesting and who then plugged emotions into the narrative where they thought they ought to go.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 décembre 2013 - 04:56 .


#15
David7204

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How is that idea discomforting? This theme of 'the difference one person can make' has been a core of the series since the very beginning.

Why do you think the series is called [/i]Mass Effect[/i]

#16
Tron Mega

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David7204 wrote...

How is that idea discomforting? This theme of 'the difference one person can make' has been a core of the series since the very beginning.


thank god for that dude who fell asleep behind the crates in ME1.

#17
ImaginaryMatter

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Tron Mega wrote...

thank god for that dude who fell asleep behind the crates in ME1.


True heroes pop up in the most unexpected of places.

#18
David7204

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Luck is always a considerable part of stories.

Think of the fight scene where the hero is losing but manages to win by grabbing an improvised weapon such as a pencil or something, as has happened in countless stories. Does that mean the world is saved because of that pencil? That the story is all a Deus Ex Machina, because the odds of that pencil being there were low? The pencil is the true hero of the story?

No.

Modifié par David7204, 13 décembre 2013 - 06:14 .


#19
Guest_SR72_*

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The last 5 minutes of the game is essentially where you decide how to end the Reaper threat. The choices may not all be in Shepard's favor, but they did kind of hint that there would be a few Reaper win endings. Control and Synthesis are Reaper win endings.

http://www.nowgamer....in_bioware.html

People might say, there's only one correct choice then. Well, that was Shepard's goal since the first game though. Destroy all Reapers. 

Synthesis is what Saren has wanted since the first game. Merge organic and Reaper DNA together (see Final Hours app. Mentions that, in Synthesis, everyone has Reaper DNA). 

Control is what TIM wanted. Also, it was the control option, which got the Protheans nuked in the previous cycle. So it's a bad choice. This was mentioned by Vendetta on Thessia. If you try to control the Reapers, you will end up like TIM did. As a Reaper husk, and Shepard's eyes look just like TIM's eyes. Same eyes as Saren too. 

They are painted as blue (paragon) choices, because they are helping the Reapers complete their harvest (most people get harvested. Some are used for slave labor (see codex entry: Harvesting)). While destroy is painted as a renegade choice, because you are committing a renegade action against the Reapers.

The way the Mass Effect series is supposed to work, is your choices affect the journey, not the destination. Like I said, the final minutes decides the fate of the Reapers. The entire game essentially deals with all your choices from ME1+ME2. They did sort of state that the story of ME3 will be shaped by the variables from previous games:

www.destructoid.com/mass-effect-3-gets-complicated-with-1-000-variables-180572.phtml

The Final Hours App will clear this up. Guaranteed, the Mass Effect 3 as a whole that I played, is not the same as the one that many played. Even though it appears the same. There are little subtle differences that add up to a lot. Same goes for Mass Effect 1 & 2. So expecting the last 5 minutes be based on your choices, is not how this whole thing is supposed to work. I had a quick look through the configuration files, and there's tons of plot variables that the game takes into account during the course of the game. Not in the final minutes. So, Mass Effect 3 in it's entirety is the ending. 

As for EDI's new dialogue, I can explain that:

EDI: We may transcend mortality itself
Harbinger: Thank us, beg us, for immortality (ME2)

EDI: To reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine.
Harbinger: Your species will be razed to a new existence. (ME2)

EDI: As the line between synthetic and organic disappears...
Harbinger: We will bring your species into harmony with our own. (ME2)

EDI has become loyal to the Reapers. Just like she said would happen during the game.

Modifié par SR72, 13 décembre 2013 - 08:54 .


#20
Eryri

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Nightwriter wrote...

That discomfort is an emotional response. I don't feel like the ending was created by a mind that was terribly emotion-oriented. I feel like it was created by a more detached thinker who wrote down what they thought seemed intellectually interesting and who then plugged emotions into the narrative where they thought they ought to go.


That may very well be true. However, it's a bit of a shame then, that the endings don't even seem to make much sense intellectually. Synthesis particularly raises eyebrows if one has even the most cursory understanding of evolutionary biology or physics. Even the other two more mundane endings have their share of nonsense - Destroy selectively targets electronics on the basis of whether or not it's self - aware.

(mild spoilers for Doctor Who follow)

Science fiction can get away with outlandish nonsense, and even be entertaining because of it, provided it doesn't take itself too seriously, or ask us to do the same. Doctor Who, for example, was able to pull off using the Tardis as an interplanatary tow truck, because its a gleefully camp load of feel-good fun, and everybody lived (although Donna's regression to her annoying original self provided the "bittersweet"). The only occasions when it fails, is when it asks us to take the nonsense seriously - such as the occasion that Rory and Amy were trapped in New York's past by the Weeping Angels and the Doctor couldn't go back to rescue them because of raisins. (Something to do with New York's time stream being unstable, but why he just couldn't go back to early 20th century Chicago and hop on a train to find them, I don't know).

ME3's problem with its ending (in my opinion), is that its full of sloppy soft sci-fi and plot holes, yet still demands to be taken deadly seriously. I suspect Bioware have learned this lesson with Citadel (which I've not personally bought), as by all accounts it's a load of Futurama-esque fun, and all the better for it.

#21
angol fear

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SR72 wrote...

The last 5 minutes of the game is essentially where you decide how to end the Reaper threat. The choices may not all be in Shepard's favor, but they did kind of hint that there would be a few Reaper win endings. Control and Synthesis are Reaper win endings.


Though I agree with what you say. I think that there is a problem when you talk about "win ending". I mean with that word you still on a conflict representation. The ending is supposed to be at a higher level and the catalyst explained it very well. So using this representation ("Reaper win") is maybe out of place, it creates a wrong context and a wrong meaning. And these representations are why people feel that the ending is "discomforting".

#22
NeonFlux117

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I agree OP.

#23
Farangbaa

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I have no idea how one sees Control or Synthesis as 'Reaper wins'.

In Control their collective consciousness gets replaced, which, in terms of an organic analogy pretty much boils down to: "hello, your brain has just been replaced with someone else's. Have a good day". I don't see how that's a win.

In Synthesis they lose their purpose. That's probably even worse than having your brain replaced.

Just the fact that they are alive does not mean they won.

And you could easily argue that they loose regardless of your decision, unless you refuse. In all cases the Catalyst, their collective consciousness, dies. 

I would have prefered to keep the Catalyst alive, but oh well.

Modifié par Psychevore, 13 décembre 2013 - 01:38 .


#24
Eryri

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Psychevore wrote...

I have no idea how one sees Control or Synthesis as 'Reaper wins'.


I can.

In Control their collective consciousness gets replaced, which, in terms of an organic analogy pretty much boils down to: "hello, your brain has just been replaced with someone else's. Have a good day". I don't see how that's a win.


Control is at best a stalemate. They're stopped actively slaughtering organics, for now, but they are still influencing the development of the Galaxy. The Shepalyst seems to have at least partially adopted the Reaper's outlook on things. It takes it upon itself to "lead the many" despite notably not winning any elections. Instead of doing what many of our Shepards would do, and force the Reapers to fly into the nearest Sun, it uses them to police the galaxy. Everyone will still be tempted to take the lazy route and use the relays that the Reapers conveniently repair for them, without bothering to develop technology of their own. The galaxy will continue to develop along routes that the Reapers tacitly approve of. 

In Synthesis they lose their purpose. That's probably even worse than having your brain replaced.


In synthesis they fulfill their purpose, they don't lose it. It's the Catalyst's ultimate goal, it admits as much itself.

Just the fact that they are alive does not mean they won.


True. But the inverse might also be somewhat true. Just because they died in destroy does not mean they lost. Shepard was still forced to act on their assertion that synthetics were inherently dangerous and so he was forced to wipe out EDI and the Geth, despite having no current quarrel with either of them. The Reapers won a partial moral victory by forcing Shepard to sink to their level. Instead of being able to outright reject their lunatic philosophy, Shepard was forced to enact it. 

Edit, Just to be clear, I consider Destroy the best of a bad bunch, especially as its the only one to rid the galaxy of the reapers, but I understand why others don't like it.

Modifié par Eryri, 13 décembre 2013 - 04:20 .


#25
Farangbaa

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[quote]Eryri wrote...

[quote]Psychevore wrote...

I have no idea how one sees Control or Synthesis as 'Reaper wins'. [/quote]

I can.[/quote]

Coolios.

[quote]
In Control their collective consciousness gets replaced, which, in terms of an organic analogy pretty much boils down to: "hello, your brain has just been replaced with someone else's. Have a good day". I don't see how that's a win. [/quote]

Control is at best a stalemate. They're stopped actively slaughtering organics, for now, but they are still influencing the development of the Galaxy. The Shepalyst seems to have at least partially adopted the Reaper's outlook on things. It takes it upon itself to "lead the many" despite notably not winning any elections. Instead of doing what many of our Shepards would do, and force the Reapers to fly into the nearest Sun, it uses them to police the galaxy. Everyone will still be tempted to take the lazy route and use the relays that the Reapers conveniently repair for them, without bothering to develop technology of their own. The galaxy will continue to develop along routes that the Reapers tacitly approve of. [/quote]

I see a lot of idealistic mumbo jumbo in here. I for one, do not give a damn he wasn't elected, as long as he does the right thing. But that's not really the point here:

What's the loss for humanity in using the technologies of a far more advanced species after that species has been defeated/turned into somekind of friendly police force? You make it sound like using anything Reaper related is an automatic loss for organics. It isn't.

[quote][quote]
In Synthesis they lose their purpose. That's probably even worse than having your brain replaced. [/quote]

In synthesis they fulfill their purpose, they don't lose it. It's the Catalyst's ultimate goal, it admits as much itself.[/quote]

No they don't. Their purpose is to harvest. Nothing more, nothing less. The need to harvest is completely eradicated in synthesis. 

[quote][quote]
Just the fact that they are alive does not mean they won.

[/quote]

True. But the inverse is also true. Just because they died in destroy does not mean they lost. Shepard was still forced to act on their assertion that synthetics were inherently dangerous and so he was forced to wipe out EDI and the Geth, despite having no current quarrel with either of them. The Reapers won a partial moral victory by forcing Shepard to sink to their level. Instead of being able to outright reject their lunatic philosophy, Shepard was forced to enact it. [/quote]

There was no moral judgement towards EDI and the Geth when Shep choose destroy. NONE. They were collateral damage. Nowhere does it go: 'the Geth/EDI are bad, so lets pick destroy". It's more: "I pick destroy, in spite of it killing the Geth/EDI" 

Modifié par Psychevore, 13 décembre 2013 - 01:59 .