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The idea of the endings is... discomforting


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#26
Eryri

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Psychevore wrote...

I see a lot of idealistic mumbo jumbo in here. I for one, do not give a damn he wasn't elected, as long as he does the right thing. 


Democracy and self-determination are idealistic mumbo-jumbo?

What's the loss for humanity in using the technologies of a far more advanced species after that species has been defeated/turned into somekind of friendly police force? You make it sound like using anything Reaper related is an automatic loss for organics. It isn't.


It is if we never bother to understand that technology, or to improve upon it. I'm typing this on a qwerty keyboard, despite it being hideously unergonomic, because human beings (and Asari for that matter, according to Liara's father) tend to laziness and technological inertia. Once the reapers repair the relays, then there will be no pressing motivation to find out what makes them tick. It's just something that the galaxy will put off until tomorrow, while they settle back into comfortable normality. Necessity is the mother of invention - it's a cliche, but there's an element of truth to it.

Modifié par Eryri, 13 décembre 2013 - 02:10 .


#27
AlexMBrennan

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Well, duh. Bioware has always done things like this, but in the past they had magic (e.g. Bhaalspwn heritage, warden rituals, etc) as a justification; in ME, they instead use a pile-up of coincidences (Shepard happens to be the only one iner the relay unlocking terminal in Me1, Shepard happens to be the only one to survive the beam run, etc)

#28
Gervaise

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I think the problem a lot of people had with the endings is that regardless of what you have done, you never get to challenge the basic logic on which the Catalyst bases its arguments.

In some ways, choosing Destroy does do that since you are willing to gamble that it is wrong and it is not inevitable that synthetics will destroy organics. The real irony of the situation is that you are likely to be far more confident of this if you managed to broker a peace between the Geth and the Quarians and have had a positive relationship with EDI (I'm assuming that it is possible to antagonise her even though I have never done so). Yet in choosing Destroy, you include your allies in the destruction.

Whilst the dialogue varied according to whether you were paragon or renegade, Control did seem to be an endorsement of the Catalyst's logic, even if it rejects the harvesting part of it. However, it was something that Shepard may have categorically rejected at the end of ME2 (if they destroyed the Collector base) and only 5 minutes before had likewise rejected in their conversation with TIM, so it did seem a rather hypocritical surrender to both the Catalyst's and TIM's logic.

Synthesis does seem an ultimate win for the Catalyst and by implication the Reapers. The Catalyst designed them to do its will. For countless cycles its will was for advanced species to be harvested. However, Shepard had presented it with a new option, to alter every single living organic species into an organic/synthetic hybrid, thus removing their need to develop technology that might destroy them and putting them into sync with the synthetics that already existed. "We are your salvation through destruction". It was just an alternative form of harvesting since organic life no longer exists. If anyone doubts this, just look at the leaves. I am inclined to agree with the posted above, that the reason EDI is so gushingly enthusiastic is that the very thing has happened that she predicted, her programming/thinking has been altered. However, when I chose synthesis before the EC and saw Joker's eyes, that was enough to jolt me into realising that I had been suckered by the Catalyst (and the bright white light that reminded me of Liara's last vision with me). The EC and EDI's dialogue only made it worse.

So, yes, all the endings are discomforting, but only Destroy feels like victory to me, even if a rather bittersweet one. Unlike the ending to ME2 it doesn't send me away on a high, just satisfied. It probably helps though to play through all 3 games at once because then Sovereign's and Harbinger's arrogant speeches are much fresher in your mind and so the determination to rid the galaxy of them for good, much more focussed.   Don't forget, if you choose Refuse, then the Catalyst no longer sounds like a child but Harbinger.

Modifié par Gervaise, 14 décembre 2013 - 01:03 .


#29
Linkenski

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I think the big difference is that the idea/concept-man behind what we have in the endings were by Casey Hudson who took inspiration from movies like Space Oddysey 2001 and alike, while the rest of the game mostly had ideas by Mac Walters and the other seniors in their respective parts. I think the rumor that Casey is the idea-man is pretty much confirmed because of Final Hours.

#30
KaiserShep

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Gervaise wrote...
So, yes, all the endings are discomforting, but only Destroy feels like victory to me, even if a rather bittersweet one. Unlike the ending to ME2 it doesn't send me away on a high, just satisfied. It probably helps though to play through all 3 games at once because then Sovereign's and Harbinger's arrogant speeches are much fresher in your mind and so the determination to rid the galaxy of them for good, much more focussed.   Don't forget, if you choose Refuse, then the Catalyst no longer sounds like a child but Harbinger.


I can agree with this. My first go-around with the trilogy was pretty much back to back, so all that dialogue between Shepard and the two reapers was pretty much at the front of my mind when I finally got to the Catalyst. I rather relish the idea of dismantling its authority, undoing millions of years worth of minions and flat out rejecting its assertion about the inevitable. I was disappointed that Shepard couldn't flat out tell it that it's full of it, but I can take satisfaction in answering with a firearm instead. I mean, why wouldn't I want to kill the space god that tells me what we can or cannot do? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 décembre 2013 - 09:36 .


#31
DeinonSlayer

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Gervaise wrote...

I think the problem a lot of people had with the endings is that regardless of what you have done, you never get to challenge the basic logic on which the Catalyst bases its arguments.

We needed this.

Insert obligatory "art" counterpoint here.

#32
trenq

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

If they really wanted people to take the threat of an inevitable synthetic/organic conflict seriously, they should have emphasized the 99% death rate the Quarians suffered in the Morning War instead of effectively sweeping it under the rug so we'd be more prone to sympathize with the Geth. The way it's presented, people think the problem is resolved already, then we're not allowed to challenge the Catalyst's claim that it will A) always happen, and B) end in the extinction of organic life.


If the Rannoch reaper mentioned this instead of "  It is not a thing you can comprehend" i would take the conflict more seriously.

also, great stuff

#33
KaiserShep

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

I think the problem a lot of people had with the endings is that regardless of what you have done, you never get to challenge the basic logic on which the Catalyst bases its arguments.

We needed this.

Insert obligatory "art" counterpoint here.


I like this. Man, now that I see this, that "there must be another way" line really does stick out a whole lot more and should not have been automatic at all.

#34
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Destroy is down to earth enough, I guess. A conventional victory would be more down to earth, but I don't feel "godlike" making the Destroy decision at least. I don't think it strips me of my humanity or makes me feel like I'm imposing weird decisions on everyone. Especially with Anderson there to keep me company 5 minutes before. His whole scene really humanizes the whole ending (it should have ended there, if you ask me).

Modifié par StreetMagic, 17 décembre 2013 - 03:15 .


#35
His Name was HYR!!

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 No it isn't, OP. This kind of nonsense is why folks fear violent video-games and ban certain literature.

It's just a game. How people play games does not translate to how they live their everyday lives. You think that players who kill off NPCs they dislike also go around killing their peers/co-workers in real life, because the game "taught" them to?

This thread is ridiculous.

#36
Nightwriter

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Eryri wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That discomfort is an emotional response. I don't feel like the ending was created by a mind that was terribly emotion-oriented. I feel like it was created by a more detached thinker who wrote down what they thought seemed intellectually interesting and who then plugged emotions into the narrative where they thought they ought to go.


That may very well be true. However, it's a bit of a shame then, that the endings don't even seem to make much sense intellectually. Synthesis particularly raises eyebrows if one has even the most cursory understanding of evolutionary biology or physics. Even the other two more mundane endings have their share of nonsense - Destroy selectively targets electronics on the basis of whether or not it's self - aware.

(mild spoilers for Doctor Who follow)

Science fiction can get away with outlandish nonsense, and even be entertaining because of it, provided it doesn't take itself too seriously, or ask us to do the same. Doctor Who, for example, was able to pull off using the Tardis as an interplanatary tow truck, because its a gleefully camp load of feel-good fun, and everybody lived (although Donna's regression to her annoying original self provided the "bittersweet"). The only occasions when it fails, is when it asks us to take the nonsense seriously - such as the occasion that Rory and Amy were trapped in New York's past by the Weeping Angels and the Doctor couldn't go back to rescue them because of raisins. (Something to do with New York's time stream being unstable, but why he just couldn't go back to early 20th century Chicago and hop on a train to find them, I don't know).

ME3's problem with its ending (in my opinion), is that its full of sloppy soft sci-fi and plot holes, yet still demands to be taken deadly seriously. I suspect Bioware have learned this lesson with Citadel (which I've not personally bought), as by all accounts it's a load of Futurama-esque fun, and all the better for it.

Intellectual on a conceptual/philosophical level, not a science/mechanics level.

It seemed like a dev was sitting around going "hey it would be interesting to blur the line between man and machine, question those boundaries or something" or "hey wouldn't it be cool if this was all about a solution to our own recurring behavioral problem" or some such.

And it seemed like this dev then proceeded to make the ending about that, thinking it was philosophically interesting, without reflecting much on the past two games and with only a confused attempt at plugging in the right emotional values in the blank spaces.

#37
AlanC9

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Nightwriter wrote..


It seemed like a dev was sitting around going "hey it would be interesting to blur the line between man and machine, question those boundaries or something".


Didn't one of the devs say they talked about bringing Shepard back as a cyborg/robot?

#38
dreamgazer

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AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote..


It seemed like a dev was sitting around going "hey it would be interesting to blur the line between man and machine, question those boundaries or something".


Didn't one of the devs say they talked about bringing Shepard back as a cyborg/robot?


Not one of the devs: Drew Karpyshyn himself said they considered the idea of a much more literal CyborgShep. 

They also considered making Shepard an unaware alien.  So ... yeah. 

#39
MassivelyEffective0730

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dreamgazer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote..


It seemed like a dev was sitting around going "hey it would be interesting to blur the line between man and machine, question those boundaries or something".


Didn't one of the devs say they talked about bringing Shepard back as a cyborg/robot?


Not one of the devs: Drew Karpyshyn himself said they considered the idea of a much more literal CyborgShep. 

They also considered making Shepard an unaware alien.  So ... yeah. 


Maybe he could have been a Time Lord.

That would totally explain a facial change in ME2. And how he survives death.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 décembre 2013 - 04:50 .


#40
KaiserShep

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Anything's possible. If Shepard lasts through all of the waves as Object Rho took over, it may have exposed him/her to the untempered schism long enough.

#41
Ravensword

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dreamgazer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote..


It seemed like a dev was sitting around going "hey it would be interesting to blur the line between man and machine, question those boundaries or something".


Didn't one of the devs say they talked about bringing Shepard back as a cyborg/robot?


Not one of the devs: Drew Karpyshyn himself said they considered the idea of a much more literal CyborgShep. 

They also considered making Shepard an unaware alien.  So ... yeah. 


Wow. It makes your wonder how much better ME3 would've been w/ Drew instead of SuperMac.

#42
KaiserShep

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The unaware alien thing seems really out of left field and ridiculous, though I suppose I have to be fair to it, considering that it's just a rough concept. But still, the ways that this would have to be revealed kind of amuse me to think about.

*random alien walks in*

"Shepard."

"You know who I am?"

"Fool! I have always known, for I am your father."

"But...I was born on Earth."

"IGNORE ME!"

#43
MassivelyEffective0730

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Ravensword wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote..


It seemed like a dev was sitting around going "hey it would be interesting to blur the line between man and machine, question those boundaries or something".


Didn't one of the devs say they talked about bringing Shepard back as a cyborg/robot?


Not one of the devs: Drew Karpyshyn himself said they considered the idea of a much more literal CyborgShep. 

They also considered making Shepard an unaware alien.  So ... yeah. 


Wow. It makes your wonder how much better ME3 would've been w/ Drew instead of SuperMac.


After reading the POS Revan novel which practically dropped a bridge on two of my favorite characters in the Star Wars Universe (as well as many of his other mediocre Star Wars novels, to whom I only consider Karen Traviss and the one-off 90's book authors worse), Drew lost a lot of credibility and respect in my eyes.

#44
MassivelyEffective0730

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KaiserShep wrote...

The unaware alien thing seems really out of left field and ridiculous, though I suppose I have to be fair to it, considering that it's just a rough concept. But still, the ways that this would have to be revealed kind of amuse me to think about.

*random alien walks in*

"Shepard."

"You know who I am?"

"Fool! I have always known, for I am your father."

"But...I was born on Earth."

"IGNORE ME!"


Nah, Shepard is totally a Time Lord.

Especially if you change his face in ME2.

Think of it. He travels around in space with an ever changing group of companions. 

He fights a genocidal species of synthetic/organic hybrid beings that want to wipe out all life in the galaxy.

His spaceship is bigger on the inside than the outside.

As mentioned, you can change his face in ME2 after he dies and is revived.

Mass Effect is Doctor Who.

And don't you dare tell me that Cerberus doesn't remind you of Torchwood.

Image IPB

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 décembre 2013 - 05:02 .


#45
Ravensword

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote..


It seemed like a dev was sitting around going "hey it would be interesting to blur the line between man and machine, question those boundaries or something".


Didn't one of the devs say they talked about bringing Shepard back as a cyborg/robot?


Not one of the devs: Drew Karpyshyn himself said they considered the idea of a much more literal CyborgShep. 

They also considered making Shepard an unaware alien.  So ... yeah. 


Wow. It makes your wonder how much better ME3 would've been w/ Drew instead of SuperMac.


After reading the POS Revan novel which practically dropped a bridge on two of my favorite characters in the Star Wars Universe (as well as many of his other mediocre Star Wars novels, to whom I only consider Karen Traviss and the one-off 90's book authors worse), Drew lost a lot of credibility and respect in my eyes.


I wouldn't know anything about that, but for anyone who thinks how much better ME3 would've been if Drew were the lead writer in ME3 instead of SuperMac, one should consider that Drew came up w/ the concept of the Lazaru Project.

#46
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Drew also created Liara - and now that I know he created the Lazarus Project, he must be responsible for Liara's obsessive turn after ME1 too. I thought it was Mac, because of the comics.

#47
MassivelyEffective0730

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Ravensword wrote...

I wouldn't know anything about that, but for anyone who thinks how much better ME3 would've been if Drew were the lead writer in ME3 instead of SuperMac, one should consider that Drew came up w/ the concept of the Lazaru Project.


I don't have an issue with the concept of the Lazarus Project so much as I do with the execution.

I'm fine with Shepard dying and being returned to the living. I just wish they had killed Shepard in a fashion that is totally unbelievable to have him recover from.

They had him asphyxiate while flying through the atmosphere of a planet (which would have incinerated him) and smash into said planet at high velocities (which would have pancaked whatever was left).

I think Lazarus might have worked better if it was in the form of The Force Unleashed, where Starkiller is killed on the Executor when Vader stabs him and throws him into space.

They could have just had Shepard asphxiate in space and have his body be recovered as it drifted over the planet. Would have been so much more believable, and less bs would have to have been overcome.

#48
durasteel

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
...
They could have just had Shepard asphxiate in space and have his body be recovered as it drifted over the planet. Would have been so much more believable, and less bs would have to have been overcome.


Amen.

#49
Ravensword

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I wouldn't know anything about that, but for anyone who thinks how much better ME3 would've been if Drew were the lead writer in ME3 instead of SuperMac, one should consider that Drew came up w/ the concept of the Lazaru Project.


I don't have an issue with the concept of the Lazarus Project so much as I do with the execution.

I'm fine with Shepard dying and being returned to the living. I just wish they had killed Shepard in a fashion that is totally unbelievable to have him recover from.

They had him asphyxiate while flying through the atmosphere of a planet (which would have incinerated him) and smash into said planet at high velocities (which would have pancaked whatever was left).

I think Lazarus might have worked better if it was in the form of The Force Unleashed, where Starkiller is killed on the Executor when Vader stabs him and throws him into space.

They could have just had Shepard asphxiate in space and have his body be recovered as it drifted over the planet. Would have been so much more believable, and less bs would have to have been overcome.


Yes, the execution leaves much to be desired considering the shape that Shepard's body would've been in after plunging into the planet from orbit; at which point LP became space magic. My other issue w/ the LP is that it's never mentioned of ever again by anyone after leaving Lazarus Station.

#50
MassivelyEffective0730

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Also, to go along further with my Time Lord Theory (trademark), both Shepard and the Doctor were involved with Project Lazarus.