711 réponses à ce sujet

[TigusVidiks]

Slayer299 wrote...

TigusVidiks wrote...

I favoured Synthesis, and to me it makes perfect sense, even though I would rather see the reapers destroyed. Although I understand the point made when people say Synthesis = Reapers, I don't entirely agree, because there is a fundamental difference. Reapers were focusing on harvesting and storing the DNA of organics, by incorporating it into machines. Removing free will as part of the process. Synthesis doesn't remove free will.
...
And for a paragon Shepard, who strives for peace and co-existence during the 3 games (if you so chose it), synthesis makes perfect sense.

Taken out of order;

Okay, but there isn't that much of a difference between Synthesis and Reapers in how I see it, both of them are done without the individual's consent (irregardless of whether it's seen as "good" or not). The choice was never there to be made, so I can't see much difference from Reapers making you either into goo or a killing machine and Synthesis which still puts tech into you, both didn't come with your consent at that time. 

Shepard did broker peace, but fragile or not, peace is still there to be begin with. It may falter, break down and get put back together or not with the Geth, but that's true of any peace between bitter enemies. It won't happen overnight or peacefully but its still there to be worked on by people.

I don't see how it's been proven that AI vs organics is inevitable, what proof was displayed to us? The catalysts word? The Levi's told us what they'd seen, but they never stepped in either. ANd the Protheans disproved the AI's 'must destroy their creator' bunk because they curbstomped the Za'atil   <--spelling 

Oh, with the Hannibal AI (on the moon) that can be forgiven really. EDI became sentient (mostly) and all she could see was she was under attack. It wasn't an 'I must destroy organics' issue right then. EDI even tells you this on Chronos base. 

Sure that synthesis is done without individual consent. But so will any other of the ending choices. Shepard doesn't ask the reapers for their consent to control them  nor the rest of ther galaxy if they are ok with it. He also doesn't ask the geth, EDI, the quarians or the rest of the galaxy what they think about destroying all synthetics. All 3 endinds are Shepard's personal choice, and they will impact every one in the galaxy.

About proving or not proving that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable, I feel that's beyond the point.
To me, that is like sayin that just because mixing blue and yellow always produced green in every attempt across millions and millions of years, that doesn't mean blue and yellow will always produce green.  Perhaps not, but probabilities of it happening are top high 99,9999%: And what destroy says to me, is that I rather bet on a 0.00001% chance of success just so I can have my vengeance.
It's a bit like Balak, actually. - "I want you to put a bullet in his head. But we are all making sacrifices today"

I don't see how the prothean beating the Za'atil disproves it.  They may have been beating the za'atil, but the original statement remains. The synthetics need to surpass their creators has nothing to do with how fast or how effectivelly they actually do it. The point is, even if they need several attempts and several decades or centuries, they will always try until they prevail.

The Anibal can be forgiven? Why,? Just because it became EDI? It's the larger principle that matters. As EDI explains about it, an AI birth to sentience is always violent and confusing.  And there are plenty of other VI's ready to turn AI, not just the geth.

Modifié par TigusVidiks, 17 décembre 2013 - 03:07 .

[TigusVidiks]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

TigusVidiks wrote...

I favoured Synthesis, and to me it makes perfect sense, even though I would rather see the reapers destroyed. Although I understand the point made when people say Synthesis = Reapers, I don't entirely agree, because there is a fundamental difference...
And for a paragon Shepard, who strives for peace and co-existence during the 3 games (if you so chose it), synthesis makes perfect sense.

I think your sentiment is common among people who choose Synthesis. And that is certainly the argument the Catalyst makes - so if you agree with the Catalyst's prediction *and* trust that its execution of the solution (assisted by Shepard and the Crucible) will solve the problem in a non-destructive manner that is greatly improved from the Catalyst's orignal execution of said plan then it makes sense.

 I do believe  in the Catalyst. In the entire game, the reapers never lied.  We may not like what they have to say, but they never did lie. They may have failed some predictions and calculations, but never outright lie.
 And the informations about the reapers origins, and what was their core programing goal - to find a way to prevent war between organics and synthetics in order to save organic existance all together - also help me make my decision. The way the Advanced AI found to complete it's Leviathan programed goal by building and using the reapers to turn the galaxy into a lab experience, tells me they may change their modus operandi if they find a more effective way of adressing the problem.  By conecting the crucible to the catalyst processes,  we give it that more effective way.  It has no reason to lie, on top of never having lied.  In fact, it need Shepard's superior code to help it make it happend. 
Basically, the crucible gave it more raw power to allow higher computation processes in order to achieve a more effective  and consensual solution of solving the Organic vs AI problem. Something that previously was impossible, as it had tried to do and failed.

Modifié par TigusVidiks, 17 décembre 2013 - 04:02 .

[KaiserShep]

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

TigusVidiks wrote...

About proving or not proving that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable, I feel that's beyond the point.
To
me, that is like sayin that just because mixing green and yellow always
produced blue in every attempt across millions and millions of years,
that doesn't mean green and yellow will always produce blue.  Perhaqps
not, but probabilities of it happening are top high 99,9999%: And what
destroy says to me, is that I rather bet on a 0.00001% chance of success
just so I can have my vengeance.
It's a bit like Balak, actually. - "I want you to put a bullet in his head. But we are all making sacrifices today"

I'm
assuming that you meant to say mixing yellow and blue to create green,
as blue cannot be created by mixing two other colors together. Problem with this analogy is that it assumes that the factors involved with mixing two colors together to create an entirely different color are somehow equal to those involved with entire civilizations creating certain technologies that will turn on them, and ultimately wipe them out. The data is insufficient to be conclusive.

I disagree that destroy deals strictly with vengeance. After all, any option for dealing with the reapers can be perfectly justified insofar that it saves the galactic community as a whole from being totally wiped out, and this all depends on whether or not you feel that the universe is a better place with people living in their shadow for potentially all eternity.
Take your example with Balak. Killing or detaining him over Terra Nova, at the expense of 3 hostages, is justifiable, because he's a genocidal maniac who would kill millions without regret. Similarly, the reapers have been shown to be a serious hazard on so many levels. Being in their proximity warps minds and makes people insane, and are walking WMD's dialed up to 11.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 17 décembre 2013 - 11:01 .

[Daemul]

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

No, it's not. Infinite means having no boundaries or limits, which is true of the Reapers because they are synthetic, they are not bound the way organics are. This is why Shepard in the Control epilogue says,

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

As a synthetic, Shepard is no longer limited, he can now achieve things organics can only dream of.

[Eryri]

He claimed that they had neither beginning nor end. That they had essentially existed forever, like God. This is clearly a lie.

[zed888]

It's also a lie that "It is not a thing you can comprehend". Once the kid lets Shepard in on the joke, you find out it's a thing that's very easy to comprehend.

[KaiserShep]

Daemul wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

No, it's not. Infinite means having no boundaries or limits, which is true of the Reapers because they are synthetic, they are not bound the way organics are. This is why Shepard in the Control epilogue says,

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

Sure it is.

To clarify, Sovereign starts this off by saying "We have no beginning." Leviathan pretty much blows that claim out of the water. As for having no boundaries or limits, it seems that the reapers are obviously prone to making serious mistakes time and time again. They could not anticipate a number of protheans escaping their death grip and sabotaging their trap. Sovereign's last ditch effort to retake the Citadel ended in its destruction, as it could not anticipate that a simple little organic would shock it into submission, leading to its destruction. The reapers utterly failed to wipe out the species from which the very first was derived. They could not thoroughly wipe out plans for the very thing that could potentially destroy them. For beings that are free from boundaries or limits, they sure suck at their jobs.

As a synthetic, Shepard is no longer limited, he can now achieve things organics can only dream of.

Like what? Nice concept on its face, but it's tantamount to a cop-out. This is no different than Sovereign claiming that the reapers are "beyond comprehension." As for being limitless, I suppose that would be tested in the heat death of the universe.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 17 décembre 2013 - 11:25 .

[Podge 90]

I chose something other than Destroy for the first time on my last playthrough. I went for Control.

I'll be going back to Destroy from now on.

[wizardryforever]

KaiserShep wrote...

Daemul wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

No, it's not. Infinite means having no boundaries or limits, which is true of the Reapers because they are synthetic, they are not bound the way organics are. This is why Shepard in the Control epilogue says,

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

Sure it is.

To clarify, Sovereign starts this off by saying "We have no beginning." Leviathan pretty much blows that claim out of the water. As for having no boundaries or limits, it seems that the reapers are obviously prone to making serious mistakes time and time again. They could not anticipate a number of protheans escaping their death grip and sabotaging their trap. Sovereign's last ditch effort to retake the Citadel ended in its destruction, as it could not anticipate that a simple little organic would shock it into submission, leading to its destruction. The reapers utterly failed to wipe out the species from which the very first was derived. They could not thoroughly wipe out plans for the very thing that could potentially destroy them. For beings that are free from boundaries or limits, they sure suck at their jobs.

As a synthetic, Shepard is no longer limited, he can now achieve things organics can only dream of.

Like what? Nice concept on its face, but it's tantamount to a cop-out. This is no different than Sovereign claiming that the reapers are "beyond comprehension." As for being limitless, I suppose that would be tested in the heat death of the universe.

To be fair though, Sovereign is either inflated with an extreme superiority complex (and who can blame him), or is trying to intimidate Shepard, or likely both.  His claims are to be taken with a grain of salt, since the Reapers can be defeated, albeit with great diffculty.  And if the universe has a beginning, then obviously so do the Reapers.

The Shepard AI and EDI on the other hands, should be more trusted sources, since they are simply changed versions of people we know extremely well.  Some of it is also to make each ending sound better as well, more epic.

[Iakus]

Daemul wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

No, it's not. Infinite means having no boundaries or limits, which is true of the Reapers because they are synthetic, they are not bound the way organics are. This is why Shepard in the Control epilogue says,

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

As a synthetic, Shepard is no longer limited, he can now achieve things organics can only dream of.

"Eternal" means something has no beginning or end.  The Reapers had a beginning.  So did the Shepalyst.

So the new Catalyst is already going squirrelly.  That doesn't bode well fo r the galaxy, long-term 

At any rate, if the Reapers truly had no limits, Sovereign would have won back in ME1 (or even earlier), there would have been nothing those meatbags at the Citadel could have done to stop it.

[TigusVidiks]

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

TigusVidiks wrote...

About proving or not proving that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable, I feel that's beyond the point.
To
me, that is like sayin that just because mixing green and yellow always
produced blue in every attempt across millions and millions of years,
that doesn't mean green and yellow will always produce blue.  Perhaqps
not, but probabilities of it happening are top high 99,9999%: And what
destroy says to me, is that I rather bet on a 0.00001% chance of success
just so I can have my vengeance.
It's a bit like Balak, actually. - "I want you to put a bullet in his head. But we are all making sacrifices today"

I'm
assuming that you meant to say mixing yellow and blue to create green,
as blue cannot be created by mixing two other colors together. Problem with this analogy is that it assumes that the factors involved with mixing two colors together to create an entirely different color are somehow equal to those involved with entire civilizations creating certain technologies that will turn on them, and ultimately wipe them out. The data is insufficient to be conclusive.

I disagree that destroy deals strictly with vengeance. After all, any option for dealing with the reapers can be perfectly justified insofar that it saves the galactic community as a whole from being totally wiped out, and this all depends on whether or not you feel that the universe is a better place with people living in their shadow for potentially all eternity.
Take your example with Balak. Killing or detaining him over Terra Nova, at the expense of 3 hostages, is justifiable, because he's a genocidal maniac who would kill millions without regret. Similarly, the reapers have been shown to be a serious hazard on so many levels. Being in their proximity warps minds and makes people insane, and are walking WMD's dialed up to 11.

Sorry, you are right, I already corrected it, of course    ---    blue + yellow = green.
It is an over simplification, but the same principle. You don't need proof in the form of data, because reality itself proves it.  Leviathans are among the longerst lived species (they live across cycles) and the most inteligent (they indoctrinate scientists to do countless research for them across thousands of cycles. I'm sure they studied the problem to exaustion) and they tell you clearly that it is inevitable. We can delay it,  but conflict is inevitable.

"I disagree that destroy deals strickly with vengeance (...) any option for dealing with the reapers can be perfectly justified insofar that it saves the galactic community as a whole from being totally wiped out..."

That's just the thing for me, I don't think Destroy is saving the galaxy as a whole, even if there was no chance of war with synthetics to reemerge. You don't save the galaxy as a whole, you save the organic races in it.  And make the point for the shyntetics who will in turn see it as the defining proof  of the impossibility of co-existance. As soon as organics build some more, and they will, they will rebel again, as they study a bit of history. And eventually the cycle of organic vs syntetic war, will begin anew.
  With synthesis, I believe people are over simplifying the process. It's not a merge. That sounds a lot worse than it is.   Organics will have nanotechnology integrated into their circulatory systems, preventing deseases, aging, and allowing instant transmition of data among them. Syntetics will get an emotional understanding of organic life motivations. and both will respect each other. The Reapers will be given free-will  and control over all the knowledge the original organic races used in their creation had, to use share and teach the new races.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Edit*
I don't see the problem and don't se the point in sayin that this is what the reapers were trying to do.  All the codex tells us that organic races were already doing this cybernetic mods in themselves, some races like the salarians even saw as acceptable to use cybernetics in their brains to improve higher thought processes. 
What the reapers were doing was wrong, by the sole reason that in their method, we would loose self awareness and free-will.

Modifié par TigusVidiks, 17 décembre 2013 - 03:42 .

[rekn2]

TigusVidiks wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

TigusVidiks wrote...

About proving or not proving that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable, I feel that's beyond the point.
To
me, that is like sayin that just because mixing green and yellow always
produced blue in every attempt across millions and millions of years,
that doesn't mean green and yellow will always produce blue.  Perhaqps
not, but probabilities of it happening are top high 99,9999%: And what
destroy says to me, is that I rather bet on a 0.00001% chance of success
just so I can have my vengeance.
It's a bit like Balak, actually. - "I want you to put a bullet in his head. But we are all making sacrifices today"

I'm
assuming that you meant to say mixing yellow and blue to create green,
as blue cannot be created by mixing two other colors together. Problem with this analogy is that it assumes that the factors involved with mixing two colors together to create an entirely different color are somehow equal to those involved with entire civilizations creating certain technologies that will turn on them, and ultimately wipe them out. The data is insufficient to be conclusive.

I disagree that destroy deals strictly with vengeance. After all, any option for dealing with the reapers can be perfectly justified insofar that it saves the galactic community as a whole from being totally wiped out, and this all depends on whether or not you feel that the universe is a better place with people living in their shadow for potentially all eternity.
Take your example with Balak. Killing or detaining him over Terra Nova, at the expense of 3 hostages, is justifiable, because he's a genocidal maniac who would kill millions without regret. Similarly, the reapers have been shown to be a serious hazard on so many levels. Being in their proximity warps minds and makes people insane, and are walking WMD's dialed up to 11.

Sorry, you are right, I already corrected it, of course    ---    blue + yellow = green.
It is an over simplification, but the same principle. You don't need poof in the form of data, because reality itself proves it.  Leviathans are among the longerst lived species (they live across cycles) and the most inteligent (they indoctrinate scientists to do countless research for them across thousands of cycles. I'm sure they studied the problem to exaustion) and they tell you clearly that it is inevitable. We can delay it,  but conflict is inevitable.

"I disagree that destroy deals strickly with vengeance (...) any option for dealing with the reapers can be perfectly justified insofar that it saves the galactic community as a whole from being totally wiped out..."

That's just the thing for me, I don't think Destroy is saving the galaxy as a whole, even if there was no chance of war with synthetics to reemerge. You don't save the galaxy as a whole, you save the organic races in it.  And make the point for the syntetics who will in turn see it as the defining proof  of the impossibility of co-existance, as soon as organics build some more. And they will. And they will rebel again, as soon as they learn a bit of history. And eventually the cycle of organic vs syntetic war, will begin anew.
  With synthesis, I believe people are over simplifying the process. It's not a merge. That sounds a lot worse than it is.   Organics will have nanotechnology integrated into their circulatory systems, preventing deseases, aging, and allowing instant transmition of data among them. Syntetics will get an emotional understanding of organic life motivations. and both will respect each other. The Reapers will be given free-will  and control over all the knowledge the original organic races used in their creation had, to use share and teach the new races.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

love the absolutes. youre mutant power must be fortune telling.

[Podge 90]

Surely there will be far more stringent control over the development of AI, particularly after the conclusion of the Geth/Quarian war?  And that's not even considering the evidence that the Leviathans offered over the threat posed by over-advanced AI.  If they were brought down by them, then the current cycle sure as hell can be.  But let's assume the current cycle can learn from their mistakes, can see at which point the Quarians lost their control over their own situation, and act accordingly for it.  Would the clean slate of Destroy wiping out all AIs really give birth to more ignorance about the dangers they pose?

[TigusVidiks]

Another reason why I don't think the catalyst is lying, is that the only reason Shepard gets to talk to it, and make his decision, is because the Catalyst wants to.
The Crucible had been connected, and was not firing. Hackett tells the Commander to try and activate it. And Shepard can't find a way to do it. Shepard is loosing strengh, and falls to the ground, unable to activate anything.
And then, that catalyst activates the elevator and brings Shepard up. Why? If he only wanted to trick the Commander, or find a way to perpetuate it's own existance, he didn't had to do anything but wait for Shepard to die and the fleets to be destroyed, despite the crucible.

[Slayer299]

TigusVidiks wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

TigusVidiks wrote...

I favoured Synthesis, and to me it makes perfect sense, even though I would rather see the reapers destroyed. Although I understand the point made when people say Synthesis = Reapers, I don't entirely agree, because there is a fundamental difference. Reapers were focusing on harvesting and storing the DNA of organics, by incorporating it into machines. Removing free will as part of the process. Synthesis doesn't remove free will.
...
And for a paragon Shepard, who strives for peace and co-existence during the 3 games (if you so chose it), synthesis makes perfect sense.

Taken out of order;

Okay, but there isn't that much of a difference between Synthesis and Reapers in how I see it, both of them are done without the individual's consent (irregardless of whether it's seen as "good" or not). The choice was never there to be made, so I can't see much difference from Reapers making you either into goo or a killing machine and Synthesis which still puts tech into you, both didn't come with your consent at that time. 

Shepard did broker peace, but fragile or not, peace is still there to be begin with. It may falter, break down and get put back together or not with the Geth, but that's true of any peace between bitter enemies. It won't happen overnight or peacefully but its still there to be worked on by people.

I don't see how it's been proven that AI vs organics is inevitable, what proof was displayed to us? The catalysts word? The Levi's told us what they'd seen, but they never stepped in either. ANd the Protheans disproved the AI's 'must destroy their creator' bunk because they curbstomped the Za'atil   <--spelling 

Oh, with the Hannibal AI (on the moon) that can be forgiven really. EDI became sentient (mostly) and all she could see was she was under attack. It wasn't an 'I must destroy organics' issue right then. EDI even tells you this on Chronos base. 

Sure that synthesis is done without individual consent. But so will any other of the ending choices. Shepard doesn't ask the reapers for their consent to control them  nor the rest of ther galaxy if they are ok with it. He also doesn't ask the geth, EDI, the quarians or the rest of the galaxy what they think about destroying all synthetics. All 3 endinds are Shepard's personal choice, and they will impact every one in the galaxy.

About proving or not proving that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable, I feel that's beyond the point.
To me, that is like sayin that just because mixing blue and yellow always produced green in every attempt across millions and millions of years, that doesn't mean blue and yellow will always produce green.  Perhaps not, but probabilities of it happening are top high 99,9999%: And what destroy says to me, is that I rather bet on a 0.00001% chance of success just so I can have my vengeance.
It's a bit like Balak, actually. - "I want you to put a bullet in his head. But we are all making sacrifices today"

I don't see how the prothean beating the Za'atil disproves it.  They may have been beating the za'atil, but the original statement remains. The synthetics need to surpass their creators has nothing to do with how fast or how effectivelly they actually do it. The point is, even if they need several attempts and several decades or centuries, they will always try until they prevail.

The Anibal can be forgiven? Why,? Just because it became EDI? It's the larger principle that matters. As EDI explains about it, an AI birth to sentience is always violent and confusing.  And there are plenty of other VI's ready to turn AI, not just the geth.

Yes, the others are done w/o consent, but that doesn't make much sense since they don't do anything to anyone peronsally along the lines of what we see Synthesis does. As my favorite doc likes to say "the only thing inevitable is death and taxes" and I quite agree. I do not agree with the whole reason the catalyst does what it does. Colors do not change or alter themselves without any outsde influence. So yes, blue and yellow always make green. People are not crayons, things do change.

And yes, proof does have to be show. I have no reason what so ever to just 'trust' the catalyst  or the Levi's (who just stood there like bigger idiots doing nothing);because it says it has zillions of years of data. Okay, goodie Catay-boy, show me said data or shut up. (catalyst, not you). Colors aren't the same thing.

And yes, I can actually understand EDI who went sentient when she was the Hannibal VI (AI). As she didn't go all g'grrr, destroy all organc life, destroy my creators." it wasn't even an attempt to create AI, it was just random chance. But to Hannibal VI, yes, it goes sentient, has no idea what's going on beyond people are shooting at it. That didn't mean I wouldn't blow it the hell up since it was trying to kill me, jus that I understood *why* it acted so violently and do not ascribe it to the 'the created must destroy its creators' nonsense.
But no, it was not because it later became EDI and it was 'all right, I'm okay with it now that you have a body and are trying to be Pinnochio 2.0"

[eyezonlyii]

TigusVidiks wrote...

Sorry, you are right, I already corrected it, of course    ---    blue + yellow = green.
It is an over simplification, but the same principle. You don't need proof in the form of data, because reality itself proves it.  Leviathans are among the longerst lived species (they live across cycles) and the most inteligent (they indoctrinate scientists to do countless research for them across thousands of cycles. I'm sure they studied the problem to exaustion) and they tell you clearly that it is inevitable. We can delay it,  but conflict is inevitable.

"I disagree that destroy deals strickly with vengeance (...) any option for dealing with the reapers can be perfectly justified insofar that it saves the galactic community as a whole from being totally wiped out..."

That's just the thing for me, I don't think Destroy is saving the galaxy as a whole, even if there was no chance of war with synthetics to reemerge. You don't save the galaxy as a whole, you save the organic races in it.  And make the point for the shyntetics who will in turn see it as the defining proof  of the impossibility of co-existance. As soon as organics build some more, and they will, they will rebel again, as they study a bit of history. And eventually the cycle of organic vs syntetic war, will begin anew.
  With synthesis, I believe people are over simplifying the process. It's not a merge. That sounds a lot worse than it is.   Organics will have nanotechnology integrated into their circulatory systems, preventing deseases, aging, and allowing instant transmition of data among them. Syntetics will get an emotional understanding of organic life motivations. and both will respect each other. The Reapers will be given free-will  and control over all the knowledge the original organic races used in their creation had, to use share and teach the new races.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Edit*
I don't see the problem and don't se the point in sayin that this is what the reapers were trying to do.  All the codex tells us that organic races were already doing this cybernetic mods in themselves, some races like the salarians even saw as acceptable to use cybernetics in their brains to improve higher thought processes. 
What the reapers were doing was wrong, by the sole reason that in their method, we would loose self awareness and free-will.

All conflict is inevitable, yet the Reapers don't try to protect organic life from itself. Case in point, the Krogan. These guys were literally destroying worlds, respnosible for far more deaths than even the Geth, yet, the Leviathans, in their infinite wisdom could not (or did not) see organic/organic conflict as that big of a deal, even though it happens much more often. This is more than likely a writing/presentation issue because even though Javik talks about the synthetic war the Protheans were fighting, we were told that they were winning.

The Geth did not exterminate the Quarians, though they could have (yes I know they killed many innocent other races in the process, but that is a small detail in this large paragraph) and EDI herself did not directly endanger anyone as the Hannible AI. It was only due to the fact that the place was a training ground that people were attacked. Even the AI on the Citadel in ME1 wasn't violent until its own existence was threatened. It even tells you that it just wanted to be uploaded into a starship to meet the Geth. 

On your point about Destroy, if you talk to EDI enough, she tells you, she would rather be nonfunctional than assimilated into the Reaper hivecode, and the Geth no matter what state they are in can be rebuilt as well. I know it sounds harsh, but it's easier (more cost efficient really) to replace a synthetic race than an organic one, And I think any emerging synthetic after that will learn of the Reaper threat, and hopefully, will see that the choice wasn't made because of synthetic life itself, but despite the fact that it would "kill" them. Organic life is more fragile than synthetic life, so if the choice of protecting one must be made, it should lean to protect those who need it most.

And how is what you described any different than "the merge" that other people are talking about. In fact, I think what you described sounds a bitt worse, as there is no equivalent exchange. What the synthetics get, EDI got in just interacting with organics. and since there are relatively few AI in the MEU as is, most of them can be "taught" as opposed to "inflicted" with the new information. 

Lastly, your point about the Salarians, to me contradicts what Synthesis is. The Salarians and whoever else augments themselves choose to do so. They can either do it, or not. In the Synthesis ending, it's all or nothing. And like people have brought up before, it's not just the sapient creatures being changed, it's the very fabric of the universe itself. 

Modifié par eyezonlyii, 17 décembre 2013 - 04:41 .

[AlanC9]

eyezonlyii wrote...

....and the Geth no matter what state they are in can be rebuilt as well. I know it sounds harsh, but it's easier (more cost efficient really) to replace a synthetic race than an organic one, 

Sure. And the dead humans, etc. can be replaced through standard breeding procedures in a few decades. Even an exterminated race could theoretically be recovered via cloning, unless kakliosaurs are somehow unique.

I'm not quite sure of the point.

[spirosz]

I can get into all three mindsets, but Destroy vibes with me the most.

[spirosz]

Can't replace the spirit, that is all I'm going to say.

[TigusVidiks]

eyezonlyii wrote...




All conflict is inevitable, yet the Reapers don't try to protect organic life from itself. Case in point, the Krogan. These guys were literally destroying worlds, respnosible for far more deaths than even the Geth, yet, the Leviathans, in their infinite wisdom could not (or did not) see organic/organic conflict as that big of a deal, even though it happens much more often. This is more than likely a writing/presentation issue because even though Javik talks about the synthetic war the Protheans were fighting, we were told that they were winning.

The Geth did not exterminate the Quarians, though they could have (yes I know they killed many innocent other races in the process, but that is a small detail in this large paragraph) and EDI herself did not directly endanger anyone as the Hannible AI. It was only due to the fact that the place was a training ground that people were attacked. Even the AI on the Citadel in ME1 wasn't violent until its own existence was threatened. It even tells you that it just wanted to be uploaded into a starship to meet the Geth. 

On your point about Destroy, if you talk to EDI enough, she tells you, she would rather be nonfunctional than assimilated into the Reaper hivecode, and the Geth no matter what state they are in can be rebuilt as well. I know it sounds harsh, but it's easier (more cost efficient really) to replace a synthetic race than an organic one, And I think any emerging synthetic after that will learn of the Reaper threat, and hopefully, will see that the choice wasn't made because of synthetic life itself, but despite the fact that it would "kill" them. Organic life is more fragile than synthetic life, so if the choice of protecting one must be made, it should lean to protect those who need it most.

And how is what you described any different than "the merge" that other people are talking about. In fact, I think what you described sounds a bitt worse, as there is no equivalent exchange. What the synthetics get, EDI got in just interacting with organics. and since there are relatively few AI in the MEU as is, most of them can be "taught" as opposed to "inflicted" with the new information. 

Lastly, your point about the Salarians, to me contradicts what Synthesis is. The Salarians and whoever else augments themselves choose to do so. They can either do it, or not. In the Synthesis ending, it's all or nothing. And like people have brought up before, it's not just the sapient creatures being changed, it's the very fabric of the universe itself. 

1- First paragraph
I already said this. Javik says the prothean were winning until the reapers arrived.  But just because they were winning., doesn't mean they would always win.  Leviathan also tells us that no matter how many laws and regulations there is, there will always be some organics willing to work outside the law and build synthetics despite others better judgement.
About the Krogan... The Reapers goal, was not simply to prevent conflict between organics and synthetics. Their goal was to prevent organic life extintion. Reapers and Leviathans both tell us that the conflict is inevitable, and the very nature of synthetic life and the way it evolves, means it will eventually win the war and proceed to stoping organic life from existing all together, before it turns into a threat.
The Krogan, were fighting other organics. Which means no matter who would win, organics would still exist. It's a fight inside the same faction. So the faction survives. As it is, it's only evolution and prevalence of the stronger in that faction, making the faction stronger.

2 and 3.- You are right, the geth did not exterminate the quarians. In their own words, - they were young, and could not yet evaluate the consequences of destroying an entire race. But, like said before, they would learn, reacess, and eventually get to the logic conclusion that their continuous existance was dependent on destroying or being destroyed.
EDI is not a race. It's a singular entity. An like you said, it learned across the time serving in the Normandy. But as she puts it herself, it was Shepard(and the Commander "superior genetic code" that is unique) that truly made her feel alive. It's Shepard's doing.  
  EDI is synthetic life, but you can see in the codex, and in the game's events, that her  ascendance to full blow sentient life and afinity with organics, is a  long process. The codex tells you that you need to "educate" the AI for years, feeding it knowledge and morals. EDI starts that process with Cerberus, and completes it aboard the service in the Normandy.   That also ties with what I said earlier.  While laws could be made to ensure that would be the only way Ai's would be created forward, there would always be some reckless  scientist whiling to work outside the accepted law, or a warlord more interested in having an obedient army  in a rush.  And no Shepard to make sure it would succeed.
4.- Yes, the Salarians chose to do it. But all of the ending choices have impact in the individual options of countless beings in the galaxy, and they are not given a choice in any of them.

To me, Destroy is mostly a matter of blind faith that the conflict between organics and synthetics will never happend again, despite having ocured in all the previous 40.000 cycles. 
Control is what Cerberus wanted, and turns Shepard into an Overlord, while you also have the Catalyst assurance that after a few milenia, you will see the same as he did (conflict is inevitable), and restart the harvest.
And Synthesis is a "happy flowers, dreamy perfect, space magic" ending.

None is perfect. But at least Synthesis closes the chapter properly.

Modifié par TigusVidiks, 17 décembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[AlexMBrennan]

AlanC9 wrote...

eyezonlyii wrote...

....and the Geth no matter what state they are in can be rebuilt as well. I know it sounds harsh, but it's easier (more cost efficient really) to replace a synthetic race than an organic one, 

Sure. And the dead humans, etc. can be replaced through standard breeding procedures in a few decades. Even an exterminated race could theoretically be recovered via cloning, unless kakliosaurs are somehow unique.

I'm not quite sure of the point.

Except that synthetic minds are just data that you could carve into a rock if you wanted to and later restore from those backups whilst no similar process exists for organic minds (except for Lazarus magically restoring memories up the second of Shepard's death from a pile of ash)

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

eyezonlyii wrote...
....and the Geth no matter what state they are in can be rebuilt as well. I know it sounds harsh, but it's easier (more cost efficient really) to replace a synthetic race than an organic one, 

Sure. And the dead humans, etc. can be replaced through standard breeding procedures in a few decades. Even an exterminated race could theoretically be recovered via cloning, unless kakliosaurs are somehow unique.

I'm not quite sure of the point.

Y'know, even though I disagreed with you at times, before this post I thought you were relatively level headed. What you're saying here is downright psychopathic though.

If that's true, then so is what eyezonlyii said. I'm just going along with the premise.

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Except that synthetic minds are just data that you could carve into a rock if you wanted to and later restore from those backups whilst no similar process exists for organic minds (except for Lazarus magically restoring memories up the second of Shepard's death from a pile of ash)

The creators of the MEU went out of their way to make AIs not work like that, didn't they? (Just as they didn't equip the MEU with the technology to back up and restore organics.)

I suppose pre-upgrade geth could theoretically be restored, perhaps. We don't have really good data about their operation so it can't be ruled out. But from the EC slides, they weren't restored.

[The Twilight God]

TigusVidiks wrote...

 I do believe  in the Catalyst. In the entire game, the reapers never lied.  We may not like what they have to say, but they never did lie.

Firstly, they never had to lie before. They had always been in a position of strength from their perspective. Lying is a show of weakness and vulnerability. When you view yourself as unassailable you have no need to lie. There is nothing the organics can do about you anyway.

Second, the Kid is either lying or Sovereign, Harbinger, Rannoch Reaper, the Leviathans, the books and the very actions of the Reapers are a deception. The Kid's story is incompatible with everything else shown beforehand. It's actually incompatible with ME1. ME1 cannot have worked out the way it did if the Kid is being truthful. It makes no sense.