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[eyezonlyii]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Daemul wrote...

Tigus is correct, if you want to see the perfect example of this kill Legion in the Suicide Mission and then go and meet a rebuilt version of him in ME3 without the memories, experiences and perspectives he had gained from the time he first left the Geth to find Shepard to the time he joined the Normandy in ME2.

It's like talking to a totally different person, the rebuilt version of him even questions why an organic was allowed to choose whether the heretics were rewritten or destroyed and that it was a mistake to entrust a decision of that magnitude into the hands of an organic. That was when I realised thay the Legion I knew was truly dead.

The Quarians may be able to build new machines, but they will be nothing like the Geth.

almost seems like a warning of how the synthetics take their destruction from organics... not well

( I wonder if their rebuilt units would remember it or take the news of such very well.. then add evolution and survival of the fittest/competition,etc to the equation. All that's needed then is time....)

no. they would be Geth. they wouldn't be Legion. Legion is unique to the Geth prior to ME3. I never said they would be the same entity, no did I mean to imply it. I simply was attempting to state that since the Geth are software, the Quarians can rebuild/restore that software. In ME3, Legion shows the difference between networked Geth and those with the Reaper codes. It acknowledges that only those with the code are "alive". 

While I and my main Shepard are personally on the fence about AI and life, what we are no on the fence about is the destruction of the Reapers. EDI says she would choose nonfunctionality over Reaper servitude and I've only met one (ok two if you count the Prime afterward) Geth that didn't want to shoot me on sight. 

The fact of the matter to me, and I may be cyberphobic or whatever you want to call me, is that the cost for the destroying the Reapers isn't all that high. Of course we lose synthetic personalites that we got, but in the end, the Catalyst even says what was lost can be rebuilt.

[jamesp81]

Daemul wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

No, it's not. Infinite means having no boundaries or limits, which is true of the Reapers because they are synthetic, they are not bound the way organics are. This is why Shepard in the Control epilogue says,

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

As a synthetic, Shepard is no longer limited, he can now achieve things organics can only dream of.

Disagree.  Assuming that it's true that synthetics have fewer limits than organics, that does not imply that they have NO limits or that they're infinite.  It just means that their limitations are less than that of organics.

Sovereign lied.  He was not infinite and never was.  The fact that he's now a pile of scrap metal is proof positive of that.

[Wayning_Star]

I know what you mean eyzonlyii, but... the machines, over time, as crafted into reality by organics, cause for the apparent destruction of given organic creators. Even the catalyst is a form of this, as it harvests it's creator/crafters. The difference being the catalyst harvest them, not out right destroys their given culture and memories.

I'm thinking that those memes that Shepard has, similar to Javiks' memory chit, are a by product of those destructions over the millennium. Eventually, the machine minds will find out about the destruction. As the catalyst warns... Shepard's children(organics future races) will indeed start the cycle again, different of course, but the basis and premise remain intact. Locked in by the nature of evolution?

[Wayning_Star]

jamesp81 wrote...

Daemul wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

No, it's not. Infinite means having no boundaries or limits, which is true of the Reapers because they are synthetic, they are not bound the way organics are. This is why Shepard in the Control epilogue says,

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

As a synthetic, Shepard is no longer limited, he can now achieve things organics can only dream of.

Disagree.  Assuming that it's true that synthetics have fewer limits than organics, that does not imply that they have NO limits or that they're infinite.  It just means that their limitations are less than that of organics.

Sovereign lied.  He was not infinite and never was.  The fact that he's now a pile of scrap metal is proof positive of that.

squash a billion or so intellects into a small ship, could seem rather infinite. Most individual beings utilize their entire race as themselves as a "future". As to remain or resemble infinity. I'd be my guess anyway. Being short lived limits the ability to be infinite, as it were.

[jamesp81]

Wayning_Star wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Daemul wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

No, it's not. Infinite means having no boundaries or limits, which is true of the Reapers because they are synthetic, they are not bound the way organics are. This is why Shepard in the Control epilogue says,

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

As a synthetic, Shepard is no longer limited, he can now achieve things organics can only dream of.

Disagree.  Assuming that it's true that synthetics have fewer limits than organics, that does not imply that they have NO limits or that they're infinite.  It just means that their limitations are less than that of organics.

Sovereign lied.  He was not infinite and never was.  The fact that he's now a pile of scrap metal is proof positive of that.

squash a billion or so intellects into a small ship, could seem rather infinite. Most individual beings utilize their entire race as themselves as a "future". As to remain or resemble infinity. I'd be my guess anyway. Being short lived limits the ability to be infinite, as it were.

Seeming infinite and being infinite are not the same.  All that crap that Sovereign uttered about being eternal and immortal rings pretty hollow considering his burnt out parts are scattered all over the Widow system.

It also rings hollow if you pick Destroy and kill them all.  Doesn't seem too eternal or infinite to me.

[Wayning_Star]

seeming infinite IS infinite. It's what makes the synthetics crazy.. the organic ability to think out side the box. (IF they care to

[eyezonlyii]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I know what you mean eyzonlyii, but... the machines, over time, as crafted into reality by organics, cause for the apparent destruction of given organic creators. Even the catalyst is a form of this, as it harvests it's creator/crafters. The difference being the catalyst harvest them, not out right destroys their given culture and memories.

I'm thinking that those memes that Shepard has, similar to Javiks' memory chit, are a by product of those destructions over the millennium. Eventually, the machine minds will find out about the destruction. As the catalyst warns... Shepard's children(organics future races) will indeed start the cycle again, different of course, but the basis and premise remain intact. Locked in by the nature of evolution?

Why would it be over time? I think the best case scenario would be to rebuild them, then fill them in on what happened. This way it doesn't look like the organics are trying to hide anything. If possible show them the history of both the Geth and EDI. After that, the relationship forms are the two parties try to establish an equal footing. True, the organics had to wipe some synthetics out, but only because there were synthetics trying to wip out organics. Plus, I think if the Geth are rebuilt and allowed to join Council space, this is nothing but a good thing, seeing as now there are (best case friendly, or at least not antagonistic) synthetics around to help monitor AI research and if necessary, "teach" newer AI about the world at large. A mentorship program for cyber kids!

[KaiserShep]

Lol, seeming infinite is not infinite.

[TigusVidiks]

eyezonlyii wrote...


no. they would be Geth. they wouldn't be Legion. Legion is unique to the Geth prior to ME3. I never said they would be the same entity, no did I mean to imply it. I simply was attempting to state that since the Geth are software, the Quarians can rebuild/restore that software. In ME3, Legion shows the difference between networked Geth and those with the Reaper codes. It acknowledges that only those with the code are "alive".

You're still thinking of the Geth as the name of a program app or something like that. Their not. Geth are a race.
Quarians would not be able to restore/rebuild that software, simply because they never made it in the first place. 
The quarians made a VI software to run the platforms. Those VI turned sentient AI , ran them off of their own planet,  and in the course of 300 years they self- modified, improved and outright changed their programing to the core. Impossible to replicate. 
Every attempt to study those modifications ended in failure or disaster, as the Geth had very strong defenses to prevent it.

Modifié par TigusVidiks, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:04 .

[TigusVidiks]

jamesp81 wrote...

Daemul wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Sovereign's claim that the reapers are infinite is obviously false.

No, it's not. Infinite means having no boundaries or limits, which is true of the Reapers because they are synthetic, they are not bound the way organics are. This is why Shepard in the Control epilogue says,

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

As a synthetic, Shepard is no longer limited, he can now achieve things organics can only dream of.

Disagree.  Assuming that it's true that synthetics have fewer limits than organics, that does not imply that they have NO limits or that they're infinite.  It just means that their limitations are less than that of organics.

Sovereign lied.  He was not infinite and never was.  The fact that he's now a pile of scrap metal is proof positive of that.

 This is a easy theme, done countless times in sci-fi and fantasy themed games and movies.  An AI, a synthetic (or a vampire, for all that matters) is only infinite, if he is not touched by an external source and lives inside a dome with no contact with anything else. A vampire lives forever. Provided no one kills him. A synthetic lives forever. Provided no one pulls the plug.

[Wayning_Star]

organics as well as synthetics have 'studied' their own mentality to little avail. Like the Geth, they have very strong defenses to ... prevent it..

rofl

[TigusVidiks]

KaiserShep wrote...

TigusVidiks wrote...

I think that misses the main point.  the geth are sentient and self aware. And you (as well as several others) are still thinking of them as buildable tools. While you can certainly rebuild their hardware, you can't rebuild their "soul". Their mind, their memories, their experiences and perspectives, their interactions with other species and the learning they got from it, would all be lost.  The Catalyst tells you that the geth will be destroyed (with all the tech based on reaper technology), but soon organics would build NEW synthetics. So, basically, saying you can rebuild the geth, is either false, or still looking at them as non-sentient tools.
You can certainly rebuild their platforms(the robots) and make them functional. But they would not be Geth anymore.
You would need to make new programs to run those platforms, that would not have all the data and improvements the Geth made into themselves (Geth are programs), since no one in the galaxy knows how they did it, or fully understands how complex Geth programs are.

Yeah, I think that some simply don't want to come to terms with the choice that destroying the reapers does, in fact, wipe out the synthetics completely, and that no matter what you do, they cannot be restored to what they were before, even if perfect facsimiles of their hardware and original software can be remade.

Of course, I'm still not convinced that this would necessarily lead to the new synthetics being necessarily hostile, but they will be completely new characters with completely new perspectives nonetheless.

Agreed. The new synthetics being hostile or not, is up for debate. I don't think there's a way of knowing for sure, although the fact that we had no problem in sacrificing others of their kind, may make them a little wary of organics. 
But they would never be Geth.

[Hazegurl]

eyezonlyii wrote...
The fact of the matter to me, and I may be cyberphobic or whatever you want to call me, is that the cost for the destroying the Reapers isn't all that high. Of course we lose synthetic personalites that we got, but in the end, the Catalyst even says what was lost can be rebuilt.

This is how I feel. Sure the newly created Geth will not have the same experiences as those that came before them but over time they will develop along their own path free of Reaper tech et al. They could very well end up fighting in their own wars and finding their own reasons for existing and so forth. As much as I hated destroying the Geth they alone are not worth keeping the Reapers around.

[Wayning_Star]

the entire MEU tech is based upon reapers and their boss...soo. It's a cake and eat it too scenario?

[Wayning_Star]

oh crap, I just realized that the reaper code "could" be wrought from the contents of the reaperships. The catalyst could actually be a reprogrammed unit, needing only the crucible to boost it's processing abilities, to "comprehend" the humanities(in relation to various organic intellect and their respective relationship with such'n so forth)

[KaiserShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

I look forward to whatever new synthetics pop up (hypothetically speaking). I didn't choose Destroy to solve the Catalyst's problem. I chose Destroy because the Catalyst is the problem. It's not just an AI -- but an AI with a multi billion year head start on everyone. If I can take Reaper technology out of the equation, that's great. If new synthetics do rise up, it'll take years for them to advance - whether they end up or hostile or friendly is beside the point. Any other synthetics are hardly a problem after you see the Reapers.

Thing that always gets me about this subject is that the Leviathan provides some hint of what happened, but not much. Its thralls were wiped out. How and why is anyone's guess. Was it like the geth, only the creators were not spared? Or, did the Leviathan lose some of its thralls to the stars after some of them escaped the synthetic wrath and became perpetual nomads like the quarians? It's all pretty vague.

But in any case, I agree. The reapers are a culmination of millions of years of assembly, and were birthed out of the mandate of preserving all life, which in itself seems like a huge mistake right off the bat. Would someone create an AI charged with doing that exact same thing again? Maybe the salarians, since they seem to like playing god more than anyone else, but this all stems from the fact that the Leviathans are pretty much the organic precursor to the entire reaper design anyway, right down to the indoctrination. Heck I'd be more concerned about their continued existence way more than this idea that new synthetics might threaten everyone, and would definitely push for the destruction of every Leviathan artifact found and cutting off traffic to any world they may inhabit. I'd prefer they simply be wiped out but whatever.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:38 .

[Wayning_Star]

well, it would seem that organics will and/or do demand that synthetic intellect "better" their existence, etc...follow that for about ever and you're bound to end up integral with technology, as it evolves "with" you (or without you..gak!)

[AlanC9]

Why would the quarians even want to recreate the geth?

[KaiserShep]

Yeah. It would've been nice if Shepard could simply tell the Catalyst: "We wanna be free to do what we wanna do! And we wanna get loaded! And we wanna have a good time!" and the Catalyst simply says "F**k it" and disappears.

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...
That humans are nothing like what he was programmed to preserve.

And what about every cycle before ours? Seems like the Catalyst (an AI) kept whippin' organic ass for billions of years. Who proved him wrong, exactly?

The Reapers themselves are evidence that this is a real issue. "Organics rah-rah!" doesn't work when the count is synthetics 2094378 - Organics 1.

[Wayning_Star]

StreetMagic wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I look forward to whatever new synthetics pop up (hypothetically speaking). I didn't choose Destroy to solve the Catalyst's problem. I chose Destroy because the Catalyst is the problem. It's not just an AI -- but an AI with a multi billion year head start on everyone. If I can take Reaper technology out of the equation, that's great. If new synthetics do rise up, it'll take years for them to advance - whether they end up or hostile or friendly is beside the point. Any other synthetics are hardly a problem after you see the Reapers.

Thing that always gets me about this subject is that the Leviathan provides some hint of what happened, but not much. Its thralls were wiped out. How and why is anyone's guess. Was it like the geth, only the creators were not spared? Or, did the Leviathan lose some of its thralls to the stars after some of them escaped the synthetic wrath and became perpetual nomads like the quarians? It's all pretty vague.

But in any case, I agree. The reapers are a culmination of millions of years of assembly, and were birthed out of the mandate of preserving all life. Would someone create an AI charged with doing that exact same thing again? Maybe the salarians, since they seem to like playing god more than anyone else, but this all stems from the fact that the Leviathans are pretty much the organic precursor to the entire reaper design anyway, right down to the indoctrination.

I don't even think the era the Leviathan were in power apply much.

These organics races who got killed off by synthetics grew up as thralls. No wonder why they got their asses kicked. They weren't allowed to develop naturally to begin with. Their course in evolution was directed. They probably didn't have any unique qualities or outliers or unpredictable strengths. There's no telling what organics are capable of fighting off when they're not programmed to be someone's b!tch. It's not a good model to base off of when discussing "organic vs synthetic" conflict. These aren't the best examples of organics. It's surprising that the Catalyst doesn't realize that. That humans are nothing like what he was programmed to preserve.

if humans hadn't went to mars and snagged that cool tech...or.. fallen for the same free stuff again and again over the years.  Evolution has it's risks, apparently. (especially if monitored by some weirded out synthetic super computer that happens to be alien..)

[General TSAR]

Oblivion to toasters and sexbots!

That's all there is to it.

Modifié par General TSAR, 18 décembre 2013 - 06:00 .