711 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think the ending in Destroy was purposely made more vague so that it makes for greater head canon possibilities, and allows for more wiggle room. Bioware at this point had decided to make another Mass Effect game. Prior to the publication of ME3 the ending was the end of the series.

At this stage, I'm wary it'll be "Mass Effect 4: The Search for More Money."

Supply and demand, y'know.  And there's definitely demand for a direct sequel. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 20 décembre 2013 - 07:34 .

[rekn2]

CronoDragoon wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

take out the word the. i made a mistake, my bad

Ah, okay. In that case, I thought we were talking about targeting Reaper code, which is clearly possible given dudes in their basement can write viruses that can differentiate between different types of software. In the case of Reaper tech that contains no code, there is clearly something unique in its composition that differentiates it from other forms of advanced technology. I don't see why that is hard to believe.

still doesnt explain anything. youre also bringing up virsuses in networks not outside of computers. i would believe some kind of emp pulse not "targets synthetics".

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Just so I'm up to speed, are we sure that such differentiation actually happens? As opposed to, say, targeting synthetic consciousnesses themselves, which is also conceptually possible unless we think that consciousness isn't "real."

Or is "targets Reaper 'X'" just a working assumption for the thread.

What is "synthetic consciousness"?

What makes the geth, EDI, and the Reapers' minds similar enough to be targetted, but not humans, quarians, or asari?

Modifié par iakus, 20 décembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[Deathsaurer]

One is a very complicated computer the other is an organic brain.

[Eryri]

But the Reapers are partially organic themselves. I wonder how much mental processing goes on in their organic gloop? Do Reapers think like organic beings, or like machines, or a mix of both?

[okiness]

 This one is easy, depending.

The choice for my Shepard depends. If EDi dies and this isn't the Mehem ending, she gets severely depressed but realizes she has been fighting this whole time and blindly promising peace and success but most of all that she'd find a way and this drives her insane almost- that she'd be breaking more promises by trying to set up some tentative peace with the reapers and dying. She knows Synthesis would be far harder than the Catalyst is making it seem and that the concept that the far more advanced reapers wouldn't think, we're still superior? Just look to the Leviathans. The concept of killing Edi deeply disturbs her but she blindly shoots at destroy because this has been too hard. Too much. Even now she's being asked to give her life, or her soul, and she has given so much. She might not even live this. But if anything, she is not going to let the reapers justify some piece of **** theory one day when they decide they're a better species in general. Or that everyone would be better off being part reaper. Then she survives but disappears for a year in a fit of depression.

In endings where EDI wouldn't die, the fan made ones, she simply decides that she can't break her promises and die because of some tentative peace with a species that once found their race to be like ants on a play ground.

Of course my crazy lady headcanon ending is my Shepard biotic powering off her arm and throwing it into the synth beam BUT I AM CRAZY so ignore me.

[Deathsaurer]

Eryri wrote...

But the Reapers are partially organic themselves. I wonder how much mental processing goes on in their organic gloop? Do Reapers think like organic beings, or like machines, or a mix of both?

The Reapers are bio synthetic robots. Everything organic from the original species is converted into the synthetic compounds that make up the body (see the Human Reaper looking like a terminator) and the peoples minds are saved in AI form. How does any of this ridiculousness work? Hell if I know. I'd bet they think like machines with the odd trace of organic emotion poping up from time to time. Remember Shepard saying they can't understand our bonds?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

AlanC9 wrote...

Just so I'm up to speed, are we sure that such differentiation actually happens? As opposed to, say, targeting synthetic consciousnesses themselves, which is also conceptually possible unless we think that consciousness isn't "real."

Or is "targets Reaper 'X'" just a working assumption for the thread.

I think it targets all tech, but only affects AI in High EMS by literally offing them -- resetting them all to "factory-defaults."

They die, by virtue of losing all memory.

[Iakus]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Eryri wrote...

But the Reapers are partially organic themselves. I wonder how much mental processing goes on in their organic gloop? Do Reapers think like organic beings, or like machines, or a mix of both?

The Reapers are bio synthetic robots. Everything organic from the original species is converted into the synthetic compounds that make up the body (see the Human Reaper looking like a terminator) and the peoples minds are saved in AI form. How does any of this ridiculousness work? Hell if I know. I'd bet they think like machines with the odd trace of organic emotion poping up from time to time. Remember Shepard saying they can't understand our bonds?

I gotta dig up that Legion conversation in ME2 that confirms the Reapers use the minds of those they slushee to create new Reaper minds.

[Deathsaurer]

iakus wrote...

I gotta dig up that Legion conversation in ME2 that confirms the Reapers use the minds of those they slushee to create new Reaper minds.

This?

[ImaginaryMatter]

iakus wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

Eryri wrote...

But the Reapers are partially organic themselves. I wonder how much mental processing goes on in their organic gloop? Do Reapers think like organic beings, or like machines, or a mix of both?

The Reapers are bio synthetic robots. Everything organic from the original species is converted into the synthetic compounds that make up the body (see the Human Reaper looking like a terminator) and the peoples minds are saved in AI form. How does any of this ridiculousness work? Hell if I know. I'd bet they think like machines with the odd trace of organic emotion poping up from time to time. Remember Shepard saying they can't understand our bonds?

I gotta dig up that Legion conversation in ME2 that confirms the Reapers use the minds of those they slushee to create new Reaper minds.

That does seem to be be the case based on the video. However, and this is purely metagaming, Legion's dialogue seems to be a leftover from Chris L'Etoile's favorite idea for the Reapers:

"As for the Reapers, whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it's clear that they're not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are."

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 21 décembre 2013 - 03:30 .

[Iakus]

Deathsaurer wrote...

iakus wrote...

I gotta dig up that Legion conversation in ME2 that confirms the Reapers use the minds of those they slushee to create new Reaper minds.

This?

That would be it, yeah

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

iakus wrote...

I gotta dig up that Legion conversation in ME2 that confirms the Reapers use the minds of those they slushee to create new Reaper minds.

This?

That would be it, yeah

Geth, reapers, they're all just a bunch of commies.  

[Deathsaurer]

Nah Julia, commies never killed that many people.

[KaiserShep]

Yet. Infiltrators are everywhere.

[The Twilight God]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

But it is just your belief. Just like my views are my beliefs. However, I can back my belief with evidence.

The absense of evidence is not evidence.

Correct.

But people are missing the point. There is no rationale to presume the Geth are destroyed. They would have me prove that the Geth are alive when I have no basis to think they aren't. No different than me demanding you prove the Volus or Drell are still alive when you have no reason to think they are dead. It would be like assuming a character died every time they were off camera and calling my assertion that they are probably safe and sound head canon. Pure absurdity. The burden of proof is on those claiming the Geth, Drell or Volus are dead.

Does this make sense to you?

The slideshow shows the Geth alive and ticking in both other endings, that coupled with what the kid says and the thematic/symbollic/whatever importance of the Destroy choice all adds up to dead Geth.

If we're talking about evidence as in the technical aspects there is none, most of what the kid says on this front is either nonsensensical or ambiguous (it can't even keep its definition of 'Synthetic' straight). And since next to nothing is actually known about the Crucible and even less about the actual mechanisms of the ending, any 'evidence' is conjecture or headcanon.

What's in what slide does not matter unless it shows lifeless Geth. The Kid never says anything about AI's in particular dying. He generalizes all technology and all technology was not noticeably affected. You have no basis to assume the died while all other non-reapertech remained intact. I believe they want to preserve the idea that the Geth died because this was definitely stated to be a result in the original dialog before the EC. Then they retconned it. Why? I think the whole point is to get people to chose something other than Destroy because the other two choices can't stand on their own. We'll just have to see when ME4 comes out.

I understand you want them to be dead for whatever reason, but there is simply no evidence. Of course, you're free to believe they did. Just like you're free to believe the Volus all died when their suits all failed because that would constitute "technology you rely on" like the Kid said. No cherry picking

[The Twilight God]

Necanor wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Necanor wrote...

EDI's name is on the memorial wall if you choose destroy. Why would the Geth not be eliminated by the big red wave?

Read the thread. EDI is made of reapertech. That's why she died as stated by writer Patrick Weekes.

Geth are not reapertech. Ergo, they are just programs in any given plain old tech, which did not go boom.

Why would they be eliminated if no other regular tech was?

They became reapertech as soon as they got upgraded with the reper code.

No, the geth never become reapertech. Reapertech is physical reaper components. Typically synthesized material like husks and "terminators" which are organic/synthetic hybrid. Not sure what those other reaper devices are made from, but things that cause indoctrination are also reapertech. 
 
If the Geth were reaper-anything they would have turned on everyone and helped the Reapers. Geth aren't physical beings. Just code. There were Geth in Quarian suits, starships, anything. They cannot be reapertech. It is physically impossible.

[The Twilight God]

rekn2 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

wth are you talking about? "reaperized material"? the universe has a finite amount of matter. anything the reapers could do people could do. drop the pseudo religious crap

The Reapers (the actual "terminators") and husks are made of organic/synthetic hybrid material which I call "reaperized material". Anything made of this substance would be Reapertech. In the Synthesis ending, for instance, all life becomes "reapertech" as if it is hybridized. Perhaps the Destroy ray negates the atomic bonds between the synthetic and organic parts causing disintegration. Just a thought.

what im saying is it isnt reaper specific. if they can make something so can we. there is nothing inherantly "reaper" in anything except an actual reaper...

Yes, but that type of material is the only thing actually seen to be affected by the red magic. It's conceivable that someone else can come up with the technology, but no one else has. It is a reaper-only material during the time of ME1-3. So it is very much reaper specific in manufacture. Again, it's just the stuff I call "reaperized" or "synthesized".

[The Twilight God]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Control: the Reapers are being controlled by the guy (or gal) whose only goal in life ever was to save the galaxy from being wiped out. That's not to say there's no potential for conflict, but there's no rational basis to think the new Catalyst will suddenly go "LOL GENOCIDE TIME KIDS!!!"

Actually there is.

If the Intelligence could not police the galaxy during the Leviathan times, how is the same thing with a Shepard paint job going to fair any differently? You've already accepted the Reaper logic; otherwise, you would pick Destroy. So given the inability to control organics and sharing the same beliefs as the Reapers the outcome seems evident. It would be absurd to think that simply policing these organic fools was never thought of in all the billions of years the Reapers were around. If you believe the Leviathans that's exactly what they were trying to do originally, right? And they failed. Hence The Cycles was concocted according to the Kid.

Remember, that thing is NOT Shepard. It's just another Reaper with his memories and voice. Shepard is dead. The machine has no more a sense of humanistic morality than it did prior to uploading Shepard's memories. It just has a job to do. And it will do it.

[The Twilight God]

Hazegurl wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Necanor wrote...

EDI's name is on the memorial wall if you choose destroy. Why would the Geth not be eliminated by the big red wave?

Read the thread. EDI is made of reapertech. That's why she died as stated by writer Patrick Weekes.

Geth are not reapertech. Ergo, they are just programs in any given plain old tech, which did not go boom.

Why would they be eliminated if no other regular tech was?

The Geth uploaded Reaper code into their entire system thus changing their whole network and turning them into individuals with an "organic" like thought process. I think whatever programs they had were no longer in existence the moment that code was uploaded. In the before and after pic you can see that before the code the Geth had one network, that big blue ball. With Reaper code the central ball is gone and it looks a little like a brain with electrical pulses. If the Wave targets Reaper tech then I can't see how the Geth could avoid getting killed. Especially since the purpose of the tech is to make them, well...more like Reapers.

Geth before reaper code



Geth after code

You're confusing "tech" (tangible physical component) with code (ambiguous non-physical idea).

The Geth never stopped being software. And software that can exist in almost any medium can have no particular property to target. There are geth in ships, Quarian suits, computers, servers, Gameboys, cell phones, etc. There is no particular thing that can be pinpointed. When you look at what happens to the husks it becomes apparent that the affects where physical annihilation of atomic bonds (isolated to synthesized matter). So attacking code is out of the question.

"Regardless, a string of code is not something that a blast of energy can defect as it will vary based on the affiliated hardware/storage medium. A program is representation of ones and zeros (or twos, threes. fours, etc. in the future) within a medium. No standard configuration, no standard hardware and no standard matter. There is no way to isolate such a general concept as it has no definitive qualities even on an atomic level. It would have to attack either all technology or a specific hardware configuration. Otherwise, the energy blast itself would require the intelligence, the speed of discernment and conscious awareness to be able to point out and discriminate in real-time on a case by case basis. That would be reaching and downright ridiculous." - The Geth SURVIVE the Destroy ending

Unless that red energy is alive and some kind of god-being I don't see how the red magic could go after Geth. Furthermore, given that it was designed before the Geth (upgraded or not) ever existed it certainly wouldn't have the programming to go after them anyway. Again, looking at what it did to husks shows something that targets synthesized hardware (i.e. reaper nanites) at the atomic level. We know it didn't attack the organic parts because then organics would have died too.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I missed this re: me...

The Twilight God wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

But it is just your belief. Just like my views are my beliefs. However, I can back my belief with evidence.

The absense of evidence is not evidence.

Correct.

But people are missing the point. There is no rationale to presume the Geth are destroyed. They would have me prove that the Geth are alive when I have no basis to think they aren't. No different than me demanding you prove the Volus or Drell are still alive when you have no reason to think they are dead. It would be like assuming a character died every time they were off camera and calling my assertion that they are probably safe and sound head canon. Pure absurdity. The burden of proof is on those claiming the Geth, Drell or Volus are dead.

Does this make sense to you?

Yes, perfect sense: you are being pedantic.

Let's ignore RGB to look at other ME3 choices and their EC slides. With Jack, you can send her kids to battle on the frontlines, or put them in support. Jack has three EC slides. One is romance related, ignore that. The other two are change dependent on what decision you make a Grissom Academy. If you put the kids in support, you see them all back at the 'Academy. If you send them to the frontlines, you see Jack standing at a graveyard.

There's nothing specifically telling us that those graves are her students' and so, if we're to use the same logic you're invoking with the geth in Destroy, we can theoretically believe they don't die if you send them into the frontlines.

However, the author-intent with that slide is fairly obvious to anyone using an iota of common-sense.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Twilight God wrote...

Actually there is.

If the Intelligence could not police the galaxy during the Leviathan times, how is the same thing with a Shepard paint job going to fair any differently? You've already accepted the Reaper logic; otherwise, you would pick Destroy.

What is "the Reaper logic" [sic]?

Remember, that thing is NOT Shepard. It's just another Reaper with his memories and voice. Shepard is dead. The machine has no more a sense of humanistic morality than it did prior to uploading Shepard's memories. It just has a job to do. And it will do it.

I've seen people on both sides of this position try to argue their point, and it gets nowhere, because it comes down to what you believe constitutes being you (and that's subjective). Some people believe that "you" are the sum of your memories, and it wouldn't matter what physical body you inhabit, that body is you if it has all the same thoughts and memories as your old self. As a matter of fact, there's a Russian millionaire (or billionaire, I forget exactly) trying to pursue immortality through this means: creating synthetic "avatars" which preserve the subject's memories.

He hopes to get it done by around ~2045. Some dispute whether or not this is truly immortality, but that's the point here. Some believe just the thoughts and memories are "you." Some think the (organic) body counts too. It's all hypothesis.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 21 décembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[AlanC9]

Playing the common sense card? On TTG?

[Steelcan]

Why people get so worked up over the geth eludes my understanding

[The Twilight God]

TigusVidiks wrote...

Actually, the quote i said is present in the EXt Cut.
"Even you are partly synthetic" -  key word here is partly. 

Yes, present and taken out of context. Hence, I added the rest of it to put the semantics in context.

Remember, it defines "synthetic" as "technology you rely on".  Synthetic = technology in general. So, yes, he is part synthetic.So what? I'll tell you what. It implies that Shepard's synthetics should be "affected". The beginning of ME2 shows synthetic parts of his spin in some vital points. His synthetics are just fine. Along with all the other synthetics shown post red magic. Yet for some reason the Geth are mysteriously singled out to the exclusion of all other synthetic objects?

Or are you now saying Shepard is partly an AI? Because TIM seemed pretty adamant on the not changing anything aspect of Shep's resurrection. Not really sure how someone can be part AI in terms of consciousness, emotion, instinct, sensory perception, etc... Not that such a position has any merit. The Kid never says anything about the red magic affecting AIs in particular. That's pre-EC and retconned away.

TigusVidiks wrote...

"But no more than has already been lost" - Exactly. Loosing a synthetic race is not more than all the previous races that were lost in the course of millions of years. 

So those words tell you it was singling out AI's to the exclusion of all other tech? You do realize that the term "artificial intelligence" is never used, right? That nothing even implying AI's in particular is ever uttered. And you're now saying that this refers to the loses of all the other races over millions of years as opposed to the loses resulting from the red magic; You know, the subject of conversation it's having with Shep? Wow! Oooooooo-Kay. The mental gymnastics you will perform to not admit when you're wrong is astounding. I award you the Sore Loser of the Month Award. Congrats.

Now let's put aside your cherry picking once again. *sigh* Let's do it again with the entire paragraph for context.

Shepard: What EXACTLY will happen?

Kid: Your Crucible Device appears to be largely intact. However, the effects of the blast will not be constrained to the Reapers. Technology you relay on will be affected, but those who survive should have little difficulty repairing the damage. There will still be loses, but no more than has already been lost.

Yeah, it's clearly talking about losses from all the past cycles combined and not the immediate losses related to the red magic of the Crucible (which it is actually talking about). You're totally not stretching it... (Sarcasm off)

TigusVidiks wrote...

Anyone can play that game you know. It's not hard to make up anything or distort  conceptions  just by using semanthics or simply dismissing what we don't like. Point is, you either take what the game tells you at face value and work with what you get, or you dismiss it and imagine something that fits whatever your expectations were. The second option makes any discussion about the game sterile, and not worth having.
You seem to be too inloved with your own 5 minutes of glorious interwebz exposure to be ready to let go.

Semantics? It clearly defines what will happen when Shepard asks it. Look at it again. It clearly states what will happen. And nothing in that statement calls out AI's in particular. Fact. So, please, just stop with the false claims of distortions, making up stuff and other attacks on my character. We're adults here (I assume you are). Just man up and admit you were wrong. 

I have done nothing but take what the game gives at face value. Again, The Kid NEVER singles out AIs. NEVER. I'd challenge you to present that dialog if I didn't know for a fact that no such dialog exists. You are the one inserting that it singled out AI's into the true meaning of what it meant to say but didn't.

TigusVidiks, as a Sore Loser of the Month Award recipient it is obvious that no rational discussion will be possible. With that said, I'm going to have to end our discourse. I think we can both can agree this won't go anywhere and will only degenerate into name calling and ridicule. I understand that you feel the geth died in your gut. You feel that was the intent of the writers. But you can't rationally corroborate that feeling. That's cool. Believe whatever you want. If you feel they died, so be it. But don't act like you can demonstrate it objectively. No bad feelings. Good day.